Can't speak with a great deal of knowledge about in the field, but I know in the Navy each Carrier Strike Group is usually commanded by a senior Captain, or a Rear Admiral (which can be either 1 or 2 star)

Each individual Fleet is commanded by a Vice Admiral (3 Star) with exception of fourth fleet, which is a Rear Admiral Upper Half (2 star). Each Command (which would be a combination of Third and Seventh Fleet, 2nd and Sixth, or similar all-encompasing field) would also have a Flag Officer (a 1-4 star Officer).

 

I see. And I just looked up the ranks in the codex. It seems to be quite different to the US military:

 

Supreme Commander

General (Army), Admiral (Navy)

Colonel (Army), Commodore (Navy)

Major (Army), Group Captain (Navy)

Captain

Lieutenant

Ensign

Sergeant (Army), Petty Officer (Navy)

Corporal

Specialist

Private

 

I would guess every large fleet has an Admiral in command, a small fleet a Commodore and Group Captains for small strike forces or more likely for groups inside larger fleets.

 

And if General is the rank just above Colonel, it isn't much of a surprise to see generals close to the front line.

 

 

But Fleet Admiral isn't part of the list. So I suppose Oteg got the title during the lat war or even before that. After the war the rank was abolished, but Fleet Admirals kept the title.

 

Yes and no. There's at least one Fleet Admiral and the "Supreme General" of the Army that are operating and planning out of Coruscant.

 

Yeah, of course. But there are also a lot of high ranking officers in the field.

 

 

This is a great discussion that I used to hope would come up in the game at some point. I have a level 50 Vanguard that I played as all of the choices he made would be what I would do in that situation. The thought of following orders from some junior Jedi fresh off of Tython is unthinkable. If anything, the Jedi should be taking orders from the Republic officers if they want to play war. It's not quite as bad as getting choke by Sith commanders, but the similarities between the factions are too close for comfort.

 

You know, a junior Jedi fresh off Tython doesn't command Special Forces soldiers like Havoc Squad. He might be placed in command of a Squad of normal infantrists or even conscripts. Later, with more experience, he might lead bigger units. And he will take Orders from republic officers all the time. We are not talking about the clone wars here, when Padawans were placed in command.

 

The first command the Jedi Consular gets is on Hoth, when he is already a Master. The Jedi Knight gets a Command (over Jedi) on Corellia.

 

Jedi Generals or Jedi Admirals at that time are at least very experienced in warfare. Or (as we suggested here), they went through a special training for Jedi Commanders, or maybe the normal military academy for officers.

 

 

That quest on Tython was so pathetic that it was an insult to every soldier in the Republic. Kill 12~ training droids and you're suddenly capable of being a military leader? Unbelievable.

 

I don't think the quest is the complete leadership training. It tests how effective you are in combat situations. See below.

 

This is true and a reason to have Jedi fighting alongside Republic soldiers, but not a reason for Jedi to be commanding them.

 

In RL military, who leads a unit. The officer or the NCO? They both lead. The NCO doesn't have the theoretical knowledge about tactics the officer learned, and the officer doesn't have the NCO's experience.

 

In Republic military Jedi work together with the military commander. (I think it is normally a Jedi per battalion.) He will plan the battle together with the commander (foresight, knowledge about Sith etc. might be very helpful), he will use battle meditation, if he's good at it, or fight in the first line.

 

You can see how this works in this Video:

on Hoth.

 

 

 

 

Expect every Jedi with a military rank, and also every Jedi who is in command of larger troops, to be as capable as Oteg.

 

There are Jedi who come fresh from Tython and are assigned to a battalion, leading it together with it's normal leaders. But there are also military experts among the Jedi who fought in wars for years.

 

 

(Republic Corellia spoiler)

I realized force sensitivity doesn't matter that much when my Trooper soloed dark council member after dark council member on Corellia.

 

Your Trooper is the best of the best of the best in Republic military. He is a SpecForces commander, commanding the most elite unit in the entire republic.

 

 

 

 

Force Sensitivity is a great advantage. You can overcome it with training, experience or luck, but it is not easy.

 

 

 

 

Like someone said earlier, Obi-wan killed Grevious with one, but just imagine how deadly a Jedi sniper could be.

 

But here the Knight-thing comes into play. Sniping people is a very aggressive form and not very honorable. I could imagine Jedi Shadows becoming snipers, but it would be very rare.

 

 

What is ridiculous in all this is not the fact that he leads the fleet but the fact that he holds Republic Navy rank.

 

For example his Sith counterpart, Darth Malgus, is in the leader of the Imperial Expeditionary Fleet too but he doesn't hold Imperial Navy rank.

 

(note I say leader, not commander)

 

Behind the military rank is a military career which Jedi doesn't have and are even forbidden to have.

 

Well, in the Sith Empire a Darth outranks an officer in every case (exept the grand moff). In republic military it is not that simple.

Behind his rank is either a military career, then he is the exeption to the rule. Jedi normally don't have militay careers, but there are some. Or it is an honorary title, because he worked with the military.

 

 

 

 

 

They didn't give him that rank permanently, since he is commanding the fleet for that particular mission he is referred to as the ranking Admiral. Need to leave the OCD real world comparisons out of it.

 

I don't think so. When you ask him about it, he doesn't say: "It is a temporary rank for this mission." He says: "I've had so many titles in my live. I prefer to be called Oteg, it's shorter."

 

It seems like he has been Jedi Master and Fleet Admiral for a very long time. And he had lots of other titles, just because he did lots of things.

Also Fleet Admiral isn't a rank at the time of the game (anymore).

 

If Fleet Admiral wasn't a rank at all, but a function (everyone in charga of a fleet is referred to as Fleet Admiral), your theory is true, though.

Well, in the Sith Empire a Darth outranks an officer in every case (exept the grand moff). In republic military it is not that simple.

Behind his rank is either a military career, then he is the exeption to the rule. Jedi normally don't have militay careers, but there are some. Or it is an honorary title, because he worked with the military.

 

Well Sith are more or less equivalent to political organisation in a totalitarian system. So a Sith attached to the fleet is like a political commissar who outranks everyone in the unit BUT doesn't interfere with the day-to-day operation and actual execution UNLESS something goes wrong.

 

This same concept can be used for the Vader-Tarkin relationship in Star Wars. You might get the idea that Grand Moff Tarkin outranks Vader but that is not so. Vader is there to supervise and doesn't interfere with Tarkin's job (ie commanding the station). If Tarkin did something wrong he would be disposed by Vader.

 

Also, even better example is Death Squadron in Empire. Vader leads it but the commander is Ozzel/Piett. When they failed him he disposed them, if he felt their command was bad he overruled it, while otherwise he let them operate the fleet.

 

Malgus and the Expeditionary Fleet is pretty much a copy of that. Malgus is the political figure who leads the fleet while operation command is under a military figure (naval officer).

 

Now the problem with this Jedi is that he actually holds a military rank and is presented a military commander of that fleet rather than some supervisor. That is the big and simple difference.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Path-x

You know, a junior Jedi fresh off Tython doesn't command Special Forces soldiers like Havoc Squad. He might be placed in command of a Squad of normal infantrists or even conscripts. Later, with more experience, he might lead bigger units.

 

I don't like the idea of him commanding a squad of normal guys either. He should start off as their equal and have to prove himself. I doubt the masters would want that though, being afraid of the dark and all.

 

Since you mentioned conscripts I gotta say that I completely hate the concept of using slave soldiers and that it makes the Republic sink to the level of the Empire, (and worse than the Empire when they used conscripted indoctrinated 10 year old soldiers during the clone wars, but I'll get back on topic.)

 

And he will take Orders from republic officers all the time. We are not talking about the clone wars here, when Padawans were placed in command.

 

The majority of them are way too hesitant about killing their enemies. A good example would be on Hammer Station when you have the option to kill the enemy engineers via computer console. The "light side" option being to not kill them (until you blow the station up and kill them anyway.) Most Jedi wouldn't kill the engineers, even though they're responsible for maintaining a continent busting battle station, and by killing them greatly increases the mission's chance of success. All because killing them a couple minutes early "feels mean."

 

Jedi Generals or Jedi Admirals at that time are at least very experienced in warfare. Or (as we suggested here), they went through a special training for Jedi Commanders, or maybe the normal military academy for officers.

I wouldn't have any problem if they went through the normal military academy.

 

I don't think the quest is the complete leadership training. It tests how effective you are in combat situations. See below.

 

On my knight I got the impression that it was official certification. I'll look again when I make a consular.

 

In RL military, who leads a unit. The officer or the NCO? They both lead. The NCO doesn't have the theoretical knowledge about tactics the officer learned, and the officer doesn't have the NCO's experience.

 

In Republic military Jedi work together with the military commander. (I think it is normally a Jedi per battalion.) He will plan the battle together with the commander (foresight, knowledge about Sith etc. might be very helpful), he will use battle meditation, if he's good at it, or fight in the first line.

 

I don't mind the Jedi in advisory roles, but I don't want them calling the shots while they're so blinded by the "light." Especially with their tendencies to give their enemies second chances.

 

You can see how this works in this Video:

on Hoth.

I try to avoid spoilers like the Rakghoul plague, so I can't watch that

 

Expect every Jedi with a military rank, and also every Jedi who is in command of larger troops, to be as capable as Oteg.

I saw Oteg as far more capable than his peers due to all of the experience his long life span gave him.

 

There are Jedi who come fresh from Tython and are assigned to a battalion, leading it together with it's normal leaders. But there are also military experts among the Jedi who fought in wars for years.

I would rather the ones fresh off of Tython be seen as cadets than help "lead" it.

 

Force Sensitivity is a great advantage. You can overcome it with training, experience or luck, but it is not easy.

 

Meh, if we were smart, we'd give M1-4X a Ysalamir cage attachment and the force wouldn't matter.

 

But here the Knight-thing comes into play. Sniping people is a very aggressive form and not very honorable. I could imagine Jedi Shadows becoming snipers, but it would be very rare.

Another reason why they shouldn't be calling the shots. If they aren't willing to kill Imperial combatants because they're feeling merciful, then they are a hindrance to the war effort. I saw a good example on my Sith Warrior on Belsavis

An example of a Jedi being able to do what it takes would be Luke blowing up the Death Star.

Regarding the whole issue with "A Jedi who just graduated off of Tython shouldn't be holding Rank in the Military."

 

Be aware that your Class Story takes a varied amount of time, according to Bioware. The Jedi Knight story for example, is suppose to take 5-7 Years in SWTOR. And the Imperial Agent takes 2-3 years, etc. Every class story takes a general amount of time to complete, meaning that our characters learn and mature over that time.

 

So no, your Jedi just doesn't jump rank from Padawan to Knight in a few days, it's a couple of years. So it makes sense that a Jedi supporting the War Effort for seven years would be granted the title General in the end of his journey.

And it makes sense that a Jedi who has been serving the War Effort for many years, hundreds even, would hold a strong military rank.

 

You assume that a Jedi couldn't learn something a Fleet Admiral would? There are Jedi who specialize in specific fields, such as Engineering, Biochemistry, and other Sciences. So it makes sense that a Jedi could learn absolutely everything about a Fleet, which is apparently required according to you.

 

"We can do anything you can do better, I can do anything better than you!"

Edited June 3, 2012 by TheLoneSage

Now the problem with this Jedi is that he actually holds a military rank and is presented a military commander of that fleet rather than some supervisor. That is the big and simple difference.

 

So he probably is a military commander. An exception to the rule. Isn't there also a Jedi Knight on Hoth who is a high ranking military leader of the republic (Sith Warrior story).

 

The republic handles things differently and Oteg definitly was a military commander and a Jedi master.

 

Btw. as far as I know Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor were kind of a triumvirate. Tarkin had far more power than Ozzle or Piett.

 

 

I don't like the idea of him commanding a squad of normal guys either. He should start off as their equal and have to prove himself. I doubt the masters would want that though, being afraid of the dark and all.

 

A normal soldier goes through probably six month training. A Jedi has trained for years. He would have combat training for years. He would have leadership training for years (not speciffically military leadership training, though).

 

In my country, if you got a PhD in for example oceanography on a normal university, you can join the Navy and start out as Lieutenant-Commander (well, it's Korvettenkapitän here). Without aditional years in a military academy. Jedi are comparable. (PhD => Lt.-Cmdr. (Jedi Master), Master => Lieutenant (Jedi Knight), Bachelor => Ensign (Jedi Padawan))

 

Since you mentioned conscripts I gotta say that I completely hate the concept of using slave soldiers and that it makes the Republic sink to the level of the Empire, (and worse than the Empire when they used conscripted indoctrinated 10 year old soldiers during the clone wars, but I'll get back on topic.)

 

I think conscription isn't slavery. I my country young men were drafted into military training for half a year until one year ago. In case of war, they would have been called to arms, and after the war they could return. That's not slavery. (Of course you can argue against it. Of course the Empire uses conscription on regular basis and the republic only in emergency situations. But slavery is a life-long thing and your owner can sell you, which is not the case here.)

 

The majority of them are way too hesitant about killing their enemies. A good example would be on Hammer Station when you have the option to kill the enemy engineers via computer console. The "light side" option being to not kill them (until you blow the station up and kill them anyway.) Most Jedi wouldn't kill the engineers, even though they're responsible for maintaining a continent busting battle station, and by killing them greatly increases the mission's chance of success. All because killing them a couple minutes early "feels mean."

 

If you blow up the station, there is a call to evacuate it, so you don't kill them. And yes, Jedi are hesistant about killing their enemies. Some soldiers are too. (Did you know that in most cases soldiers fire to miss their enemy on purpose, because all humans hesistate to kill.)

In you case you have the choice to blow up engineering or shut it down. Both accomplishes the target, one is more effective with more casulties. If you just shut down engineering, you will probably still succeed.

 

(May I ask, in Mandalorian Raiders, did you kill or capture the engineers?)

 

 

I wouldn't have any problem if they went through the normal military academy.

 

But you would have a problem if a Jedi Master with, lets say 15 years military experience, gets military rank?

 

On my knight I got the impression that it was official certification. I'll look again when I make a consular.

 

You might be right. How would you design a quest which tests the ability to lead troops into battle?

 

I don't mind the Jedi in advisory roles, but I don't want them calling the shots while they're so blinded by the "light." Especially with their tendencies to give their enemies second chances.

 

Yeah, I guess you also don't like

 

 

 

 

Sorry, troopers will always have to deal with politicians and Jedi. I think politicians can be more annoying. A Jedi might force you to spare an enemy sometimes, but he also chops off a lot of heads if he fights alongside you.

 

I try to avoid spoilers like the Rakghoul plague, so I can't watch that

 

But you have played Knight, haven't you. You know how he works together with General Va Suthra. No one outranks the other and they are a very good team.

 

 

I saw Oteg as far more capable than his peers due to all of the experience his long life span gave him.

 

Yeah, but a Jedi who served in the military for 15 years could become a good commander even if he is only 50 years old, couldn't he?

 

I would rather the ones fresh off of Tython be seen as cadets than help "lead" it.

 

As I said, fresh off Tython = years of combat training.

 

Meh, if we were smart, we'd give M1-4X a Ysalamir cage attachment and the force wouldn't matter.

 

Yeah, you also can outsmart Force users. Still, Force users are dangerous and it takes effort to counter them. More effort than it takes to counter regular soldiers.

 

Another reason why they shouldn't be calling the shots. If they aren't willing to kill Imperial combatants because they're feeling merciful, then they are a hindrance to the war effort. I saw a good example on my Sith Warrior on Belsavis

when I killed Darth Baras' sister and my Jedi friend whined about how mean I was. He admitted it was the logical thing to do, but it "felt" wrong to him.

An example of a Jedi being able to do what it takes would be Luke blowing up the Death Star.

 

In RL, I wouldn't become sniper. As sniper you feel far more as a killer than as regular soldier. So I can't imagine myself doing what a sniper does, but I still might want to serve my country in a war. (Or maybe would be forced to.) I also hope that if the enemy retreats I would by able to hold my fire instead of shooting them in the back.

 

Let's say I have some leadership qualifications. Would you say I shouldn't be allowed to lead bacause I would show too much restraint?

 

(I would blow up the Death Star and have nightmares the following months.)

Be aware that your Class Story takes a varied amount of time, according to Bioware. The Jedi Knight story for example, is suppose to take 5-7 Years in SWTOR. And the Imperial Agent takes 2-3 years, etc. Every class story takes a general amount of time to complete, meaning that our characters learn and mature over that time.

 

O_o Do you have a cite to that? I have never seen those time estimates before and that is a fairly significant insight if there is an official statement on the length of tiem of the class stories.

 

Edit: Wait thinking on it those timelines don't make sense since the Imperial Agent hit DK before the JK finishes Taris so unless the war for Corellia takes 2 years or the JK takes 2 years to finish Taris that timeline is impossible.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Ranadiel_Marius

Be aware that your Class Story takes a varied amount of time, according to Bioware. The Jedi Knight story for example, is suppose to take 5-7 Years in SWTOR. And the Imperial Agent takes 2-3 years, etc. Every class story takes a general amount of time to complete, meaning that our characters learn and mature over that time.

 

Your pulling numbers out your *ss. They have never alluded to an actual time. All that was said in the old swtor forums that an act CAN be "months".

A normal soldier goes through probably six month training. A Jedi has trained for years. He would have combat training for years. He would have leadership training for years (not speciffically military leadership training, though).

 

In my country, if you got a PhD in for example oceanography on a normal university, you can join the Navy and start out as Lieutenant-Commander (well, it's Korvettenkapitän here). Without aditional years in a military academy. Jedi are comparable. (PhD => Lt.-Cmdr. (Jedi Master), Master => Lieutenant (Jedi Knight), Bachelor => Ensign (Jedi Padawan))

 

I think what I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer leaders to have experience on the battlefield before they start leading. If most Republic soldiers enlist when they're 18ish, it's hard to say whether they're rich kids from upper Coruscant or moisture farmers who have been fighting sand people since they were old enough to hold a gun. Then you have to account for the people who held ranks on their home planets to and have combat experience, but are new to the Republic forces.

 

I think conscription isn't slavery. I my country young men were drafted into military training for half a year until one year ago. In case of war, they would have been called to arms, and after the war they could return. That's not slavery. (Of course you can argue against it. Of course the Empire uses conscription on regular basis and the republic only in emergency situations. But slavery is a life-long thing and your owner can sell you, which is not the case here.)

 

We disagree on this, but I don't want to derail this into political stuff since the game didn't really elaborate on the process. (Small Taris Sith Warrior spoiler)

Do you think that conscripting clone trooper kids was justified?

 

If you blow up the station, there is a call to evacuate it, so you don't kill them. And yes, Jedi are hesistant about killing their enemies. Some soldiers are too. (Did you know that in most cases soldiers fire to miss their enemy on purpose, because all humans hesistate to kill.) In you case you have the choice to blow up engineering or shut it down. Both accomplishes the target, one is more effective with more casulties. If you just shut down engineering, you will probably still succeed.

 

I guess I didn't know that they could evacuate, but since I didn't know if we would succeed in destroying the station, it would be better to kill them than to risk letting them continue slaughtering more continents of people. Even if you let them escape, you're letting mass murderers get away. (I consider Tarkin just as guilty of destroying Alderaan as the guys who were pushing the buttons to make it happen.)

 

(May I ask, in Mandalorian Raiders, did you kill or capture the engineers?)

 

I honestly don't remember. I was more focused on the drop ship bosses at the time.

 

But you would have a problem if a Jedi Master with, lets say 15 years military experience, gets military rank?

 

I don't think so, that seems like it's about the same as a non force user. 15 years of military experience means he's not as bad as the sleep-with-a-night-light Jedi establishment crowd.

 

You might be right. How would you design a quest which tests the ability to lead troops into battle?

 

That's a really big question! KotOR 2 had a good one on Korriban where you're in the illusion of a battle where you're leading Republic soldiers against the Mandalorians and you have different options to choose from on how to proceed.

 

Yeah, I guess you also don't like

 

Supreme Chancallors that would exchange captured military leaders for some thousands of random soldiers.

 

I laughed out loud at how well you read me here. You're right, but she listened to me and Garza so I have a lot of respect for her. (Trooper ending)

 

 

Sorry, troopers will always have to deal with politicians and Jedi. I think politicians can be more annoying. A Jedi might force you to spare an enemy sometimes, but he also chops off a lot of heads if he fights alongside you.

 

That's true. I'm actually RPing my smuggler as ex-military who loves the Republic but hates the good old boys.

 

But you have played Knight, haven't you. You know how he works together with General Va Suthra. No one outranks the other and they are a very good team.

 

I'm only on Quesh so I don't know how it will go but he's been great to work with so far.

 

Yeah, but a Jedi who served in the military for 15 years could become a good commander even if he is only 50 years old, couldn't he?

 

Yep, I'm just saying guys like Oteg should be out of his league. I'm sure there's brilliant 600 year old Wookiees and 1000 year old Hutts that would dance around most 50 year old commanders simply due to their vast amount of experience.

 

In RL, I wouldn't become sniper. As sniper you feel far more as a killer than as regular soldier. So I can't imagine myself doing what a sniper does, but I still might want to serve my country in a war. (Or maybe would be forced to.) I also hope that if the enemy retreats I would by able to hold my fire instead of shooting them in the back.

 

Let's say I have some leadership qualifications. Would you say I shouldn't be allowed to lead bacause I would show too much restraint?

 

I think there's a range from people like you to people like General Garza where I would find both would be good commanders even though they are slightly different. (Coruscant Trooper spoiler)

(Balmorra Jedi Knight spoiler)

but I see fleeing Imperials as more of a boomerang where they'll come back and kill innocent people.

 

(I would blow up the Death Star and have nightmares the following months.)

I think anyone who did that would. I wonder if Luke/Lando/Wedge did.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I'd prefer leaders to have experience on the battlefield before they start leading. If most Republic soldiers enlist when they're 18ish, it's hard to say whether they're rich kids from upper Coruscant or moisture farmers who have been fighting sand people since they were old enough to hold a gun. Then you have to account for the people who held ranks on their home planets to and have combat experience, but are new to the Republic forces.

 

Well, in Real World militaries and probably also in the Republic military officers also start without that much of experience. They have visited the academy for 4-5 years, but haven't been on the battlefield.

 

Since I wasn't in the military, I will quote the outhor of the site Tips On Writing Military Science Fiction:

 

"The most experienced people in any front line combat unit are frequently the Non-Commissioned Officers, the Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and up. In some militaries it takes a Staff Sergeant eight to twelve years to get that rank. A Second Lieutenant frequently has less than a year's experience as a member of an active duty unit. Sometimes an officer may have spent four years in Reserve Officer Training Corps, or a similar academy (like West Point). When a new officer is assigned to a command he frequently lacks experience in the real world operations of that unit."

 

 

Do you think that conscripting clone trooper kids was justified?

 

No, I don't. Conscripting adult citizens for a limited time is very different to forcing children into a military career.

 

What do you think about conscripted helpers in case of natural desasters?

 

I guess I didn't know that they could evacuate, but since I didn't know if we would succeed in destroying the station, it would be better to kill them than to risk letting them continue slaughtering more continents of people. Even if you let them escape, you're letting mass murderers get away. (I consider Tarkin just as guilty of destroying Alderaan as the guys who were pushing the buttons to make it happen.)

 

I would consider Tarkin as more gulty than the man who pushed the buttons, because it was his decision. And I would consider the engineers repairing the Death Star's hyperdrive less guilty.

Btw. there is a new book, called "Death Star" which also describes how the gunner dealt with what he did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where are this sleep-with-a-night-light Jedi? Aren't they busy with meditating, exploring alien cultures and diplomacy so they can't interfere with the soldiers.

 

That's a really big question! KotOR 2 had a good one on Korriban where you're in the illusion of a battle where you're leading Republic soldiers against the Mandalorians and you have different options to choose from on how to proceed.

 

I agree, that would be better than the test on Tython. (Maybe you could do it on coruscant, or get some soldiers to tython to train with.)

 

I laughed out loud at how well you read me here. You're right, but she listened to me and Garza so I have a lot of respect for her. (Trooper ending)

I've read the argument that the Empire would have executed General Rakton for his failure, but since they didn't execute Malgus for his failure on Alderaan or Kilran for his failure to capture that ambassador (when light side,) I thought it was too risky to trade him for thousands and potentially condemn millions/billions to death.

 

An experienced Jedi could probably look into Rakton's character and see if he would return to the war or rethink his life. Then he would decide to lock him up or let him go.

 

Yep, I'm just saying guys like Oteg should be out of his league. I'm sure there's brilliant 600 year old Wookiees and 1000 year old Hutts that would dance around most 50 year old commanders simply due to their vast amount of experience.

 

That's true, of course.

 

I think there's a range from people like you to people like General Garza where I would find both would be good commanders even though they are slightly different. (Coruscant Trooper spoiler)

I didn't always agree with her, like when I refused to execute the cyborg civillians on Coruscant

(Balmorra Jedi Knight spoiler)

I saved the wounded Imperials from the Colicoids since they had surrendered,

but I see fleeing Imperials as more of a boomerang where they'll come back and kill innocent people.

 

Of course they are. That's the thing where "honor" goes against "rationality". But if both can be good commanders, most of the Jedi also can.

 

I think anyone who did that would. I wonder if Luke/Lando/Wedge did.

 

Maybe Wedge had blown up some star destroyers at this time and was used to it... Well, Star Wars doesn't really show the consequences of fighting. There are other, more realistic movies for that.

A normal soldier goes through probably six month training. A Jedi has trained for years. He would have combat training for years. He would have leadership training for years (not speciffically military leadership training, though).

People seem to be somehow stuck on this idea that the only thing a soldier needs to train for is combat. Training for Officer Candidacy School (since that's what we're talking about, rather than enlisted) takes closer to nine months, and requires having top-notch education.

Graduation from the Naval Academy requires 4 years of intense curriculum. Admission requires being recommended by either the President or someone in Congress.

 

In my country, if you got a PhD in for example oceanography on a normal university, you can join the Navy and start out as Lieutenant-Commander (well, it's Korvettenkapitän here). Without aditional years in a military academy. Jedi are comparable. (PhD => Lt.-Cmdr. (Jedi Master), Master => Lieutenant (Jedi Knight), Bachelor => Ensign (Jedi Padawan))

I will take a guess though that Germany doesn't do that for all types of doctorates. Your degree has to help the operational success of the Navy as a whole.

This is back to what I was saying earlier, or at least what I was trying to say. Most Jedi don't have that knowledge.

 

 

 

I think conscription isn't slavery. I my country young men were drafted into military training for half a year until one year ago. In case of war, they would have been called to arms, and after the war they could return. That's not slavery. (Of course you can argue against it. Of course the Empire uses conscription on regular basis and the republic only in emergency situations. But slavery is a life-long thing and your owner can sell you, which is not the case here.)

I have to agree with this. We (The United States) are the oddball in the world in that we have "The greatest military force the world has ever seen", while at the same time being all volunteer. Most countries still have conscripted military forces, including our closest competitors (China and Russia), and the past "greatest military" nations have historically done so with conscription. If it were deemed as slavery (forbidden by international law), the nations that use it would be persecuted and prosecuted by the UN.

 

 

But you would have a problem if a Jedi Master with, lets say 15 years military experience, gets military rank?

You get a military rank as soon as you join the military. The only way you get true military experience is by joining, so no.

If the Jedi Code doesn't forbid engaging in war and military conflicts, I see no reason why they don't join the military in a permanent status.

 

Sorry, troopers will always have to deal with politicians and Jedi. I think politicians can be more annoying. A Jedi might force you to spare an enemy sometimes, but he also chops off a lot of heads if he fights alongside you.

The people who deal the most with politicians are at the top of the Chain of Command, not the bottom.

 

 

Yeah, you also can outsmart Force users. Still, Force users are dangerous and it takes effort to counter them. More effort than it takes to counter regular soldiers.

So, aside from the reptition that being force sensitive means being better at everything forever, it also reinforces the idea that Jedi should always be part of the military if they're so much better.

 

 

In RL, I wouldn't become sniper. As sniper you feel far more as a killer than as regular soldier. So I can't imagine myself doing what a sniper does, but I still might want to serve my country in a war. (Or maybe would be forced to.) I also hope that if the enemy retreats I would by able to hold my fire instead of shooting them in the back.

 

Let's say I have some leadership qualifications. Would you say I shouldn't be allowed to lead bacause I would show too much restraint?

"Leadership qualifications" break down to one question: Are you able to achieve operational success while still maintaining Operational Risk Management? This is the same for Infantry or Airborne as it is for Intelligence or Engineering. This I think is the crux to my problem. Being a Jedi (or other Force Sensitive) does not automatically increase operational success or lower ORM.

That seems a little exaggerated, though. You would need lots of Dark Jedi to test all the padawans. What do you do in peace times? No, I think facing a Dark Jedi/Sith can replace the normal trails, but it can never be considered a normal trail.

 

They just need to experience the dark side. That doesn't always involve fighting a dark jedi/sith. Luke first encountered the Dark side and failed in the Cave on Dagobah. Starkiller encountered a jedi trial every time he visited the jedi temple in FU1.

Your pulling numbers out your *ss. They have never alluded to an actual time. All that was said in the old swtor forums that an act CAN be "months".

 

This was taken from last year, some time after E3. It still applies today. And act doesn't take "Months" considering ACT one for most classes, has major story advanced that would normally take years by themselves in SW Lore.

 

You think that over those course of "Months" a player can go from Padawan to Jedi Master on the Jedi Council and War Council to the Republic? No.

 

You believe that a Padawan, after a few "Months" of adventure can go and kill the voice of the Emperor? No.

 

It's also eluded many times on Tython about the "time" of training you've spent there. For example, on the Force-Sensitive Flesh Raider quest, when you speak to the Jedi Master he believes that a Flesh Raider would be nearly impossible to train. And you can respond to that with "I was trained eventually, wasn't I?" to which he responds "That's true, I've heard stories." Clearly you couldn't have made stories or memorable events on Tython on a few days. You've been on Tython for a good year or two now. You're not just the next Demi-God that waltzes through the Jedi Training.

 

O_o Do you have a cite to that? I have never seen those time estimates before and that is a fairly significant insight if there is an official statement on the length of tiem of the class stories.

 

Edit: Wait thinking on it those timelines don't make sense since the Imperial Agent hit DK before the JK finishes Taris so unless the war for Corellia takes 2 years or the JK takes 2 years to finish Taris that timeline is impossible.

 

The numbers aren't the exact numbers given from the interview. In the interview, DE was talking about how each ACT can take around one or two years, depending on which act it is and what class you are. What I meant with the IA/JK Comparison is that the Agent's storyline progresses faster than the JK's. Nobody has been able to decipher which class goes first exactly or which options are cannon just yet.

 

Example: The Jedi spends a year or two on Tython. The Imperial Agent only spends months to a year on Hutta.

 

 

People seem to be somehow stuck on this idea that the only thing a soldier needs to train for is combat. Training for Officer Candidacy School (since that's what we're talking about, rather than enlisted) takes closer to nine months, and requires having top-notch education.

Graduation from the Naval Academy requires 4 years of intense curriculum.

 

I will take a guess though that Germany doesn't do that for all types of doctorates. Your degree has to help the operational success of the Navy as a whole.

This is back to what I was saying earlier, or at least what I was trying to say. Most Jedi don't have that knowledge.

 

 

If the Jedi Code doesn't forbid engaging in war and military conflicts, I see no reason why they don't join the military in a permanent status.

 

So, aside from the reptition that being force sensitive means being better at everything forever, it also reinforces the idea that Jedi should always be part of the military if they're so much better.

 

You're still not disproving the fact that a Jedi can learn all of this... And the Jedi and Republic hold and Ancient Law that binds them militarily together. Here's the Video:

 

The Chancellor, the leader of the Republic, brought the Law back into effect, giving Jedi Military control and Ranking. So yes, the Jedi are official part of the Military later into SWTOR. So a Jedi Fleet Master, is completely accurate. Considering he's very skilled in the art of Naval Warfare and probably extends a powerful Battle Meditation .

Edited June 4, 2012 by TheLoneSage

Btw. as far as I know Tarkin, Vader and the Emperor were kind of a triumvirate. Tarkin had far more power than Ozzle or Piett.

 

Nah, Emperor and Vader were above Tarkin. Vader was the leader of all imperial military while Tarkin was more or less the highest ranking officer in that military. Although it is obvious that they had mutual respect.

 

Well Tarkin obviously had more power than Ozzel and Piett but I wasn't making any kind of comparison between them. I was talking about their position/role in relation to Vader. They were all military commanders while Vader was their supervisor.

Well, in Real World militaries and probably also in the Republic military officers also start without that much of experience. They have visited the academy for 4-5 years, but haven't been on the battlefield.

 

Since I wasn't in the military, I will quote the outhor of the site Tips On Writing Military Science Fiction:

 

"The most experienced people in any front line combat unit are frequently the Non-Commissioned Officers, the Corporals, Sergeants, Staff Sergeants and up. In some militaries it takes a Staff Sergeant eight to twelve years to get that rank. A Second Lieutenant frequently has less than a year's experience as a member of an active duty unit. Sometimes an officer may have spent four years in Reserve Officer Training Corps, or a similar academy (like West Point). When a new officer is assigned to a command he frequently lacks experience in the real world operations of that unit."

 

What I would prefer and how things actually are seem to be different.

 

No, I don't. Conscripting adult citizens for a limited time is very different to forcing children into a military career.

 

What do you think about conscripted helpers in case of natural desasters?

 

I don’t like it, but greatly prefer it to the military kind. I kind of want to drop this because I don't know if we're allowed to talk about it according to

Discussion of political, sexual, or religious topics is prohibited on the forums.

It's part of the game's lore so you'd think it would be allowed, but I don't want to find where they draw the line the hard way.

 

I would consider Tarkin as more gulty than the man who pushed the buttons, because it was his decision. And I would consider the engineers repairing the Death Star's hyperdrive less guilty.

Btw. there is a new book, called "Death Star" which also describes how the gunner dealt with what he did.

 

I’ll get to it eventually, I’m finishing up Darth Plageus now.

 

Where are this sleep-with-a-night-light Jedi? Aren't they busy with meditating, exploring alien cultures and diplomacy so they can't interfere with the soldiers.

 

They seems to usually be on the council. It seems like the Jedi have a Revan/Quigon faction and an establishment faction, with the Revan/Quigon having to answer to the establishment. Referring to the Revan that wanted to stop the Mandalorians.

 

I agree, that would be better than the test on Tython. (Maybe you could do it on coruscant, or get some soldiers to tython to train with.)

 

Like I said earlier, I hoped this stuff would have been explored more in game. (small general trooper spoiler)

 

 

It would make sense to have Jedi and soldiers train together rather than separately. I remember in one story where a Republic soldier was shocked (pun) that a Sith could shoot lightning from his fingers!

 

Trooper ending spoiler:

 

 

Sith Warrior act I:

 

 

Of course they are. That's the thing where "honor" goes against "rationality". But if both can be good commanders, most of the Jedi also can.

 

My honor just doesn't seem to be the Jedi's honor. My honor comes from stopping the genocidal Imperials from getting away to fight another day.

(Foundry flashpoint spoiler)

 

People seem to be somehow stuck on this idea that the only thing a soldier needs to train for is combat. Training for Officer Candidacy School (since that's what we're talking about, rather than enlisted) takes closer to nine months, and requires having top-notch education.

Graduation from the Naval Academy requires 4 years of intense curriculum. Admission requires being recommended by either the President or someone in Congress.

 

Jedi normally do have top-notch education. They probably also learn a lot of things you learn at the military academy. Maybe you could list the most important, so I can take a closer look.

 

I will take a guess though that Germany doesn't do that for all types of doctorates. Your degree has to help the operational success of the Navy as a whole.

This is back to what I was saying earlier, or at least what I was trying to say. Most Jedi don't have that knowledge.

 

Of course, so probably only those Jedi with fitting specialization are send into battle. And even fewer will get a real command. (Technically, he might be at the same level as the commanding officer (or above, if he is a master), but the average Jedi will know that it's the best for him to follow the officers plans.)

 

When you chose your

, you learn that there are Jedi tacticians. I repeat: Jedi tactician is a non-playable advanced class for Jedi Consulars. It might even be normal for them to join republic military and get a military rank. Oteg could be one of them.

 

The playable ACs also qualify for officer ranks, but not necessarily commanding positions.

 

Jedi Sage (healer) - same as a doctor. (Doctors get officer ranks, don't they?) Since he can heal troops during battle, he would be at the rear of the unit, supporting them.

 

Jedi Shadow - specialized in stealth, he could lead covert operations and recon missions.

 

Jedi Guardian - defense expert. Of course best in the front line, but part of his training probably involves coordinating defenses. Imagine someone you could withstand enemy fire for minutes. A living tank.

 

Jedi Sentinal - could lead a strike team to hit the enemy hard. With his skills, a normal unit could probably do the same things Special Forces do normally.

 

I have to agree with this. We (The United States) are the oddball in the world in that we have "The greatest military force the world has ever seen", while at the same time being all volunteer. Most countries still have conscripted military forces, including our closest competitors (China and Russia), and the past "greatest military" nations have historically done so with conscription. If it were deemed as slavery (forbidden by international law), the nations that use it would be persecuted and prosecuted by the UN.

 

Didn't you also have conscription during WWII? I thought it was like that. Or was it the Vietnam war? I'm not sure, but even the US seems to use conscription if soldiers are desperatly needed.

 

 

You get a military rank as soon as you join the military. The only way you get true military experience is by joining, so no.

If the Jedi Code doesn't forbid engaging in war and military conflicts, I see no reason why they don't join the military in a permanent status.

 

The problem is: The Jedi are an organization on their own. Normal procedure that one Jedi is assigned to every battalion in war time, but after the war they return to their order. That's a way to gain military experience without being part of the military. Some Jedi might choose to join the military during this time. Or they get a honorary rank.

 

The people who deal the most with politicians are at the top of the Chain of Command, not the bottom.

 

True.

 

So, aside from the reptition that being force sensitive means being better at everything forever, it also reinforces the idea that Jedi should always be part of the military if they're so much better.

 

But not every Jedi should be forced into the military. It should be a specialization Jedi can choose (which it probably is). There might also be a conflict of loyalty. A Jedi has to obey his masters/the council. Always. So if the council says "No.", like they did in the Mandalorian Wars, the military couldn't deploy him.

 

"Leadership qualifications" break down to one question: Are you able to achieve operational success while still maintaining Operational Risk Management? This is the same for Infantry or Airborne as it is for Intelligence or Engineering. This I think is the crux to my problem. Being a Jedi (or other Force Sensitive) does not automatically increase operational success or lower ORM.

 

Of course. But Force sensitivity helps with ORM and there are Jedi who are very good at this. Of course a Jedi scholar is not qualified for leading a military unit. And even if a master-rank might give him authority technically, he won't use it.

Jedi tacticians definitly don't lack these skills.

 

What I would prefer and how things actually are seem to be different.

 

Maybe, but the alternative would be taking experienced NCO's out of active duty to go to military academy for four years to get officers training.

An officer with theoretical knowledge and an NCO with experience working together has worked most of the time.

 

I don’t like it, but greatly prefer it to the military kind. I kind of want to drop this because I don't know if we're allowed to talk about it according to It's part of the game's lore so you'd think it would be allowed, but I don't want to find where they draw the line the hard way.

 

Well, it's kind of off topic. But as long as we remain civil and as long as it is only a small part of the real discussion I think it is okay. If not, a mod will inform us.

 

Edit1:

 

I might as well state the reason for my position. The state has the duty to protect it's people. But to do this you need money and men. This is why the state can raise taxes (it would be robbery if it wasn't the state). And if there are no volunteers, it also can conscript citizens. IF it is necessary. (In my country there have been cases were men were conscripted into the "volunteer" fire department, because there weren't enough volunteers.)

 

What the Republic did during the clone wars was the opposite of conscription. Instead of asking it's own citizens who owed their security and prosperity to it, they payed a species (not member of the republic) to create a slave army for them. In other words: The republic citizens could sit on their lazy a*ses during the first years of the clone wars because the republic payed for slaves instead of using conscripts.

 

I’ll get to it eventually, I’m finishing up Darth Plageus now.

 

I haven't read it yet, just got the information from some spoilers.

 

They seems to usually be on the council. It seems like the Jedi have a Revan/Quigon faction and an establishment faction, with the Revan/Quigon having to answer to the establishment. Referring to the Revan that wanted to stop the Mandalorians.

 

Since you played Knight, you know Master Jaric Kaedan. He sits on the council and is a very militaristic Jedi. JK Act I:

 

 

 

Also Satele Shan doesn't hesitate to destroy imperial dreadnaughts in times of peace to get an imperial defector. (Black Talon Flashpoint)

 

Like I said earlier, I hoped this stuff would have been explored more in game. (small general trooper spoiler)

The Trooper interacts with very few Jedi, and when he/she does, it’s pretty superficial

 

 

It would make sense to have Jedi and soldiers train together rather than separately. I remember in one story where a Republic soldier was shocked (pun) that a Sith could shoot lightning from his fingers!

 

I agree, that would have been nice.

 

Trooper ending spoiler:

 

 

 

Rakton was ‘the worst kind of Imperial: the kind that thinks he’s making the galaxy a better place.’ He was too devoted to rethink his life in that way. I might have been willing to trade him for someone like Satele Shan though.

 

Sith Warrior act I:

The fact that Darth Baras had so many spies in the Jedi ranks makes me doubt the abilities of the Jedi to look into people (Jaesa being the exception.)

 

 

You can trick a Jedi if you are skilled. (Do you know Atton from Kotor II and his techniques to shield his thoughts.) But you also can trick a trooper (Havoc Squad on Ord Mantell).

 

My honor just doesn't seem to be the Jedi's honor. My honor comes from stopping the genocidal Imperials from getting away to fight another day.

(Foundry flashpoint spoiler)

I do think Revan was completely unjustified in his evil final plan though.

 

If you define honor like this. I might call it a wise decision, but not honorable. Different values lead to different decisions in battles, and militaries will have to deal with this.

 

 

Edit2:

 

Nah, Emperor and Vader were above Tarkin. Vader was the leader of all imperial military while Tarkin was more or less the highest ranking officer in that military. Although it is obvious that they had mutual respect.

 

Well Tarkin obviously had more power than Ozzel and Piett but I wasn't making any kind of comparison between them. I was talking about their position/role in relation to Vader. They were all military commanders while Vader was their supervisor.

 

I'm still not convinced. Tarkin was not only a military, but also a political figure. Wookiepedia even says "He was recognized as the definitive voice on policy and philosophy, second only to Palpatine." Vader above Tarkin is also not the impression you get from ANH. He was above every other officer on the Death Star, but not above Tarkin.

 

Vader wouldn't touch Tarkin without the Emperor's explicit permission. It's like that in every dictatorship: there is always a circle close to the dictator where ranks/positions don't matter anymore.

 

It's also eluded many times on Tython about the "time" of training you've spent there. For example, on the Force-Sensitive Flesh Raider quest, when you speak to the Jedi Master he believes that a Flesh Raider would be nearly impossible to train. And you can respond to that with "I was trained eventually, wasn't I?" to which he responds "That's true, I've heard stories." Clearly you couldn't have made stories or memorable events on Tython on a few days. You've been on Tython for a good year or two now. You're not just the next Demi-God that waltzes through the Jedi Training.

 

The Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular probably went through Jedi training before Tython (in some random Jedi enclave).

 

I heared the game spans around 2 years, which seems reasonable for most classes.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Maaruin