Scoundrel Community Questions

Greetings! I am marshmallow, and I have been elected as your Scoundrel Class Representative. First off I wanted to say thank you to everyone who showed their support and voted for me.

I've basically been elected to initiate a discussion within the scoundrel community about issues within our class that we would like to see addressed. I will not be coming up with these questions on my own, I will be requiring a lot of input from all you other scoundrels out there. Hopefully in the end we can all decide on 3 questions that we see fit to send to the developers to answer. Keep in mind we do need to have 1 PVP question, 1 PVE questions, and 1 question that can be anything about scoundrels.

Our questions are due by 8/30,(as seen here:http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6591749&postcount=172)so we do have about a month to procure our questions.

Now, I have already discussed with several different scoundrels from a variety of different servers about concerns they had. The suggestions ranged from questions about sawbones spec, to implementing a new stealth detection system in flashpoints. Here are some of my concerns:

Scrapper

• 
  Scrapper spec really lacks sustained damage in my opinion. Basically all of the damage in this spec comes from your opener. My personal idea to improve this issue is to add some sort of proc to the scrapper tree that would allow you to use shoot first out of stealth, however the target would not be knocked down from shoot first used out of stealth. I've also heard from a lot of other scoundrels that would like to see an auto-crit on shoot first.
  

• 
  There is a lack of survivability in scrapper spec. If you get caught in the enemy back line as a scrapper scoundrel out of stealth, you're in trouble.
  

• 
  PVP set bonuses for scoundrels really need a change as well. The Enforcers set bonus for PVP is, "Increases the duration of Infiltration or Smuggle by 5 seconds and Evasion or Dodge by 1 second." and "Increases max energy by 5." Honestly both of those are pitiful. These should be changed to the old back blast set bonus as soon as a new tier of gear is released. The PVE set bonus is much better. "Increases critical strike damage of Shiv or Blaster whip by 15%" and "Increases maximum energy by 5."
  

• 
  Energy management is below par in scrapper spec. You will find yourself running out of energy on a regular basis without having cool head available in both PVE and PVP environments.
  

• 
  The spec lacks a healing debuff. Adding a healing debuff, and an auto crit on shoot first could give this spec a much better chance to get a spot in competitive PvP. Plus adding a proc that would allow shoot first to be used out of stealth could make the spec much better in a PVE environment too. Another idea would be to add a camouflage on a 45 second cd that works like the marauders force camo, and you could use shoot first through this camouflage. Of course if you had the temporary stealth, you would not have the proc that allows you to use shoot first out of stealth implemented into the game.
  

• 
  One of my own ideas I had for scrapper spec that could address survivability and sustainable damage in one talent would be to make a talent similar to scramble from the sawbones tree, except for the cooldown of vanish would be decreased. Now the way that it could be decreased is debatable, it could be every time you deal damage, every time you crit, or even just every time you take damage. In order for this talent to be more viable for PVE the cooldown would need to be reduced through damage dealt in some way. This would allow you to reopen many more times during a boss fight, or any kind of long fight in PVP.
  

Dirty Fighting

• 
  Currently, PVE wise this spec is one of the top dps specs according to some of the logs I've seen on Torparse.com. PVP wise it is very rarely used in competitive play besides occasionally on Voidstar offense.
  

• 
  Survivability is a huge issue for dirty fighting scoundrels in PVP. If you push up too far into the enemy line and get caught you will almost definitely die unless you have all of your cooldowns. Survivability for Dirty fighting is really my only concern with this spec.
  

Sawbones

• 
  This is probably scoundrels strongest spec PVE, and PVP wise. Scoundrels and Operatives are topping the charts for HPS in PVP and PVE, and is arguably the best healing spec in the game. A lot of people on these forums say that sawbones is the most overpowered spec in the game.
  

• 
  The only thing I could think of that would be nice for this spec is some way to track your HoTs. It can be difficult to distinguish between your HoTs and someone else's. It could be added as feature within UI customization.
  

• 
  A few people from other servers also mentioned making Kolto Cloud hit more people than it currently does, but I think this change is unnecessary.
  

Miscellaneous

• 
  As I listed above one scoundrel I talked to had the idea of changing the stealth detection system in flashpoints and replacing that with some sort of trip wire system. This could of course apply to all stealth classes but I thought I might as well mention it. (Thanks to MiralukaJedi for this one)
  

• 
  Another issue that still occasionally happens to me in warzones is the roll bug. This is the bug where you become stuck in place and are forced to wait until you are removed from the warzone. I had this happen to me about a week ago and it is very frustrating, especially when you're in a ranked warzone match.
  

Now its time for the rest of the community to give your feedback. Keep in mind we do need to formulate questions not suggestions. The above post is simply to get the discussion started! In a week or two I hope we can have enough questions prepared where I can create a survey, so we can all decide on our questions. Thanks for reading and I hope together we can come up with some good questions that can change scoundrels for the better in the future.

...

I'd like to keep the discussion on topic. Thanks.

I'm going to summarize my recent Focused Scoundrel Design Session posts.

Scrapper:

1. To add to your concern about survivability in PvP, many replies noted the low-quality of defense-boosting talents in Scrapper vs the other two trees. They focused on the lack of talents that boost/reduce the cooldown for Defense Screen/Dodge, no aoe reduction talent/ability, how our cooldowns compared unfavorably to other classes, and the ridiculous cd on Slippery Devil's proc.

Personally, I'd ask if they'd bring the old Surprise Comeback talent back, and make it triggered by having an Upper Hand proc. Rather than making any other major changes.

2. They also focused on how our low overall group contribution, and how it suffers when we are prevented from re-stealthing often in PvP. Many replies also noted the lack of reliable high damage AoE, Energy issues with prolonged combat, and how much Scrapper relies too much Shoot First.

Realistically I'd at least ask that Round Two's proc make the next Sucker Punch cost no energy. Though, it couldn't hurt to ask that they look at buffing our AoE, and allowing us back into stealth more often.

Dirty Fighting:

1. Again the concern about survivability in PvP was brought up about DF, just like Scrapper. The only DF-specific feedback was on how mediocre the Flash Powder Talent is.

I'm not sure what I'd do here. There's definitely a problem, but not a clear solution that wouldn't give Sawbones a buff as well.

2. I brought up the concern about Hemorrhaging Blast's charges being eaten by other player's bleed effects. More concerning, a single tick of a bleed effect, seems to, eat a charge off every Hemorrhaging Blast on the target. More testing is needed here though.

Sawbones:

1. HoT Tracker, Period.

I will say first up congrats.

Second, it doesn't matter if he copied word for friggin word what is in the operative thread. Because it is our mirror class and our concerns generally will be the same, regardless how you word them. Also, alot of what is in the operative thread has a strong basis for discussion. As long as the ideas/points are valid, its irrellevant where he got them, he is doing his job by posting them.

Next, i would say that i have concerns about buffing shoot first to auto crit for concealment. This is beacuse we get to use it so infreqently, it doesn't have alot of bearing on even the short fights. My alternative to this would be to make the spec rotate around Backblast instead. Make backblack autocrit. It would give us very similiar up front damage in the initial burst, as well as maintaining a better sustained rotation. Going one step further, I would even suggest removing the positional requirement from backblast in scrapper only.

I have some suggestions for sawbones, but its late so i will wait till tomorrow to post them.

The thing to remember though, that the point of this is to open a dialog with the dev's, so putting suggestions to them "will they do x to buff y spec" probably isn't the way to go. Identify the problems as we see it, design the question to ellict an open ended response from them, and have plenty of suggestions in this thread on the main page that they can then refer to if they want to change things later. But first and foremost lets get their method of thinking, and understand how they feel things work with our class.

The thing to remember though, that the point of this is to open a dialog with the dev's, so putting suggestions to them "will they do x to buff y spec" probably isn't the way to go. Identify the problems as we see it, design the question to ellict an open ended response from them, and have plenty of suggestions in this thread on the main page that they can then refer to if they want to change things later. But first and foremost lets get their method of thinking, and understand how they feel things work with our class.

I really want to know how they designed stealth classes in mind, for this to be an all-or-nothing kind of spec (scrapper) that should almost always win with an opener and/or almost always lose without it. They seem to be very powerful from stealth while not maintaining that damage out of stealth, which is a problem considering deception can.

Although I know we're not supposed to give suggestions, something I just now thought of, is to make Stim Boost's cooldown be reset upon leaving combat. This gives

• More survivability from the heal
  
• More Tactical Advantages
  
• Can be combined with the old Stim Boost - ticks allowed Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth mode every 30 seconds I think. This is like wayyyy back in alpha.
  

i completely disagree that the +5 energy set bonus is very good for PVE scoundrels.

in fact, it's my main concern with the class as a whole.

first, it's only 5%, not 5, so we only get 42 energy for our max-regen pool.

i'd also add that it's more beneficial for a PVE scoundrel to get the 2-set PVP bonus. this applies for all specs as stacking the healing set bonus hasn't been fixed and the extra tick of flyby is worth more dps than the 2-set bonuses, even counting the reduction in mainstat, and certainly more useful than the 4-set bonus.

i'd like to know if it's intended to only provide 5% energy rather than 5 energy for max-tier regen and what they feel, if anything, it adds to a scoundrel's rotation. i'd also like to know what they feel about the PVP set bonuses being BiS for PVE dps

i think that this can be tied to the existing concerns over PVP set bonuses.

i also think that scrapper is lacking a lot in terms of survivability. aikion's suggestion to change surprise comeback is a good one that i really support. additionally, surprise comeback is currently broken and only provides 4 ticks instead of 5.

also, adding some AOE-damage reduction would be a welcome addition. it could be tied to a skill, an existing talent, have some sort of proc or trigger, or just be a flat 30% AOE reduction, but i feel it would help a lot.

i also agree that scrapper is lacking in energy management to an extent.

basically, i feel that the energy return on turn the tables is welcome but overall rather unintuitive. i would just like to see the energy return modified in some way.

if i use sucker punch at near or max energy, i've wasted some of the energy return.

i also feel that i have to use it sometimes to go into mid-tier regen on the hopes that i'll get energy back, and i get hosed if it doesn't proc.

there's basically a very small window of energy where it's absolutely always beneficial, and other times it's somewhat wasted or that's a high risk in using it

also, as this only pertains to scrapper, using disappearing act + flechette round + shoot first in the middle of a fight is 32 energy, and it's a bit hard to swallow. i'd like to see a reduction to shoot first after using disappearing act (suggest that it be tied to the flee the scene skill). could be a simple reduction or make it completely free, but i think that this would be in line with dirty fighting's energy return on pugnacity but tailored for scrapper.

i understand that it's a big burst move on a moderate cooldown, so it doesn't necessarily have to be very overpowered, but i'd like a little help.

i'm fairly new to dirty fighting, but i feel it's in a very good place right now. the rotation is very smooth. it lacks movement, but it can at least refresh dots from 30m until it reaches 10m and 4m from the target. it also can almost completely avoid the positional requirement for scrapper, since backblast is a seldom-used filler attack.

i don't play sawbones and have no opinion really.

i completely disagree that the +5 energy set bonus is very good for PVE scoundrels.

 

in fact, it's my main concern with the class as a whole.

 

 

first, it's only 5%, not 5, so we only get 42 energy for our max-regen pool.

 

i'd also add that it's more beneficial for a PVE scoundrel to get the 2-set PVP bonus. this applies for all specs as stacking the healing set bonus hasn't been fixed and the extra tick of flyby is worth more dps than the 2-set bonuses, even counting the reduction in mainstat, and certainly more useful than the 4-set bonus.

 

i'd like to know if it's intended to only provide 5% energy rather than 5 energy for max-tier regen and what they feel, if anything, it adds to a scoundrel's rotation. i'd also like to know what they feel about the PVP set bonuses being BiS for PVE dps

i think that this can be tied to the existing concerns over PVP set bonuses.

.

I agree 5 energy for both PVP and PVE set bonuses is a pitiful set bonus, especially for a 4 piece. I meant the critical strike increase(the 2 piece PVE) is much better than added time on smuggle for PVPers, as smuggle is rarely used in PVP matches I've been in.

...

If you want I can go back and find the scoundrels on other servers that I talked to. A lot of these ideas are from them(except proc to allow shoot first to be used out of stealth, and force camo for scoundrels). A lot of the other survivability issues are things that I've noticed from simply changing the class. Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote anyways.

the biggest problem is that pvpers want mroe survivability, but the scrapper tree already has too many worthless points for survivability. get rid of defense, endurance points and add something to help with dots/energy/damage.

i remember you bringing this up before, and i think any survivability talents should be tied into any existing talents

for example, fight or flight or slippery devil sound aptly named for a talent that reduces inc AOE damage

...

First off, both Morde and Marshmallow are in the same guild so they bounced ideas off each other.

Second, these ARE the main issues with ops/scoundrels and these are the most constructive suggestions anyone has posted.

Therefore so it would make sense that they would post something similar.

Finally, the class reps are meant to collaborate, so you should be happy they are posting similar things and have similar views. Instead of flaming your class rep, why don't you do something more constructive. If you want to flame the PVP forum is ------> that way.

I posted the following in the operative thread and felt it appropriate to post the same here. Excuse the operative terminology but I think you guys get the general idea:

I think both you and Marshmallow nailed the issues/concerns and also posted very reasonable and viable suggestions.

I rolled an operative specifically to play concealment and it makes me sad that it is not a competitive pvp spec. I believe the 3 things that can make the spec good in ranked pvp are:

1) Hidden Strike Proc out of stealth

Change calculated frenzy with a new 3 park skill point that reads: When you deal damage with Shiv or Lacerate you have a 15%/30%/45% to activate Calculated Frenzy (or another name), which makes your Hidden Strike usable out of Stealth and cost 0 energy. Jarring Strike will not apply with Hidden Strike is used with Calculated Frenzy. This ability can only occur once every 18 seconds. Each rank beyond the first reduces this rate limit by 3 seconds.

2) Add an 8 second temporary vanish

Change Culling to a one point Skill, and replace Revitalizers with this one point skill:

Supercharged Stealth

Supercharges your Stealth Belt to immediately place you in Supercharged Stealth for 8 seconds. Supercharged Stealth does not break when you take damage. Supercharged Stealth does not remove you from combat, but allows the use of Hidden Strike. After the 8 seconds expire you are removed from Stealth. 45 second cooldown.

3) A Healing Debuff

Add to the Acid Blade Skill: Additionally Targets affected by your Acid Blade receive 30% less healing.

Miscellaneous Notes

A more widespread use of healing will inherently nerf Operative healing and lead to more deaths in Warzones, both of which are needed.

Shield Probe is a joke of a 45 second cooldown.

Explosive Probe has a niche role in operative DPS, but is slightly awkward because of its high energy cost and cover requirement. I think allowing the use of explosive probe during stealth is not an outrageous suggestion but I may be wrong.

My questions are:

Why doesn't Scoundrel Scrapper tree have some form of a finisher ability? I know the balance is that the class can heal itself but it does so poorly unlike Sages who can insta-heal themselves in DPS spec and Vanguards who can regenerate health when below 30% HP.

Are Shadow DPS specs not meant to be a neutral or soft counter to Scoundrel? Why does Shadow DPS have such a huge advantage over Scoundrel DPS when this class and stealth in general already have many hard-counters?

Isn't Electro-Net kinda too harsh against the Scoundrel class? It heavily counters this class way more then any other class, even Shadows can shrug it off easily since they don't rely only on mobility for survival and have defensive counters against tech classes. Taking away a Scoundrel's ability to exit combat and it's mobility for 9 seconds is the most extreme counter I've ever seen on any individual class in any game I've ever played.

Since the rebalance of 2.0, the class is too easily shut down without a much needed improvement to it's defensive cooldowns (specifically against AoE.) This class isn't suitable for anything other then small group open world PvP since it cannot perform it's role in large group oriented situations and combat.

To people here:

Anyone suggesting the ability to use Shoot First out of stealth is out of their mind. This class is more then capable of dealing great sustained damage, the issue is you can't live long enough to deal it when in groups of larger then four players because of the piss poor up time of it's defensive cooldowns; It's extremely vulnerable to burst AoE. Defensive Screen is an absolute joke because it only absorbs a few thousand damage before it's gone while other classes get some form of mitigation for the full duration. Play this class in Open world you'll rock anyone that isn't a stealth class. This class is insane in small group PvP simply because of the damage paired with it's awesome mobility and utility.

Only time this class lacks on the damage is when using the Scrapper tree on targets below 30% health (Which is mainly PvE.) Scrapper can use some form of an execute. Perhaps an auto-crit to Back Blast on targets below 30% health.

My questions are:

 

Why doesn't Scoundrel Scrapper tree have some form of a finisher ability? I know the balance is that the class can heal itself but it does so poorly unlike Sages who can insta-heal themselves in DPS spec and Vanguards who can regenerate health when below 30% HP.

 

Are Shadow DPS specs not meant to be a neutral or soft counter to Scoundrel? Why does Shadow DPS have such a huge advantage over Scoundrel DPS when this class and stealth in general already have many hard-counters?

 

Isn't Electro-Net kinda too harsh against the Scoundrel class? It heavily counters this class way more then any other class, even Shadows can shrug it off easily since they don't rely only on mobility for survival and have defensive counters against tech classes. Taking away a Scoundrel's ability to exit combat and it's mobility for 9 seconds is the most extreme counter I've ever seen on any individual class in any game I've ever played.

 

Since the rebalance of 2.0, the class is too easily shut down without a much needed improvement to it's defensive cooldowns (specifically against AoE.) This class isn't suitable for anything other then small group open world PvP since it cannot perform it's role in large group oriented situations and combat.

 

 

To people here:

 

 

Anyone suggesting the ability to use Shoot First out of stealth is out of their mind. This class is more then capable of dealing great sustained damage, the issue is you can't live long enough to deal it when in groups of larger then four players because of the piss poor up time of it's defensive cooldowns; It's extremely vulnerable to burst AoE. Defensive Screen is an absolute joke because it only absorbs a few thousand damage before it's gone while other classes get some form of mitigation for the full duration. Play this class in Open world you'll rock anyone that isn't a stealth class. This class is insane in small group PvP simply because of the damage paired with it's awesome mobility and utility.

 

Only time this class lacks on the damage is when using the Scrapper tree on targets below 30% health (Which is mainly PvE.) Scrapper can use some form of an execute. Perhaps an auto-crit to Back Blast on targets below 30% health.

I don't believe I am out of my mind to call for a hidden strike proc out of stealth. To prove my point lets look at what other classes have as pic table burst in comparison:

Assassin: maul proc

Jugg/marauder: auto crit smash (which, by the way is BOTH the hardest hitting ability in the game AND an aoe).

Merc: heat seeker missile

Sorc: auto crit thundering blast plus instant chain lightning proc

So yeah. If all those classes have hard hitting moves/moves with a 30m range that they can use quite frequently then why don't concealment operatives have something similar?

First off, both Morde and Marshmallow are in the same guild so they bounced ideas off each other.

Marshmallow is not in our guild [...]

My questions are:

 

Why doesn't Scoundrel Scrapper tree have some form of a finisher ability?

Instead of tying it to Scrapper, add a new skill tied to the Scoundrel class itself, so it can benefit Dirty Fighting as well. I don't believe the 15% extra DoT damage from Cold Blooded counts as a "finisher".

Marshmallow is not in our guild ...

Pretty sure the majority of ideas were general Operative/Scoundrel ideas for the community.

----

Next part isn't connected to Morde_ or the quote but in general. Is there anything in the opener that has NOT been expressed by multiple people in the scoundrel/operative community? Instead of arguing about if things were plagiarized or grabbed from other people, how about focusing on actually expressing opinions. Both the state, what questions you want answered and also in remembering to word the questions so they are open ended and require a good reply.

Regardless of anyone's opinions of Marshmellow, he's the representative, but he is there to forward questions and pass them on. So how about giving him the things he needs rather than wasting time? You know, less focus on a specific character/player and more focus on the actual class.

Nothing Marshmellow posted was "Morde's" ideas. Hell, even morde's initial post grabbed from existing threads (yes, he gave credit, but point remains thats HIS job. To gather the community's ideas). Both are gathering ideas that Operatives AND Scoundrel's have expressed (because they are mirrors so ignoring the other side is stupid) and posting them as a whole.

I don't believe I am out of my mind to call for a hidden strike proc out of stealth. To prove my point lets look at what other classes have as pic table burst in comparison:

 

Assassin: maul proc

Jugg/marauder: auto crit smash (which, by the way is BOTH the hardest hitting ability in the game AND an aoe).

Merc: heat seeker missile

Sorc: auto crit thundering blast plus instant chain lightning proc

 

So yeah. If all those classes have hard hitting moves/moves with a 30m range that they can use quite frequently then why don't concealment operatives have something similar?

That just means Scrapper should be given more reliability on the burst they already have, hence my suggestion of an auto-crit on targets at 30% health. Using Shoot First out of combat would be so over powered because of Flechette (K.O.) Let's not forget why Scrapper was nerfed for 10 patches straight: stun locking. Scrapper has great burst damage and it's even sustainable unlike Shadows; It's just not reliable like Shadow burst. Also, Back Blast basically is just Shoot First with slightly less damage and an inability to proc K.O and Upper Hand.

As for the issue of plagarism:

Almost 100% of what Marshmellow has written can be found here by posted concerns of other players:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=662231

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660309

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660996

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659958

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=652268

I'll do a few Sawbones notes then.

The two major "utillity" powers are completely wasted on a sawbones.. With these I mean Smuggle and Scamper. While they both have their uses in pvp, they are very underwhelming for a Sawbones in PvE. Maybe make Smuggle work as an area aggro dump, or some other form of utilization for pve.

Smuggle has too little use. Really goes for the whole Scoundrel class.

Ofcourse making HoT's more easy to track will be a huuuuge quality of life improvement.

Exchange the heal of shield probe with an ability that makes Scamper go on a 2 min CD but throws 2 stacks of SRM's on the player when used (still with the roll). I feel this would make Scamper feel useful for a Sawbones, and bring the self heal into the same powerband as the Sage self heal.

Seriously, the whole thing about plagiarism (sp?) is a non issue. He is not writing a book, he is our representative: which means he is our channel to reach the dev's. So yeah, he should copy other people's concerns.

Instead, it would be wise for Marsh and Morde to work together to get the most out of the 2x3 questions.

Because after all: operative and scoundrel are the most fun AC of the game:D

That just means Scrapper should be given more reliability on the burst they already have, hence my suggestion of an auto-crit on targets at 30% health. Using Shoot First out of combat would be so over powered because of Flechette (K.O.) Let's not forget why Scrapper was nerfed for 10 patches straight: stun locking. Scrapper has great burst damage and it's even sustainable unlike Shadows; It's just not reliable like Shadow burst. Also, Back Blast basically is just Shoot First with slightly less damage and an inability to proc K.O and Upper Hand.

 

 

As for the issue of plagarism:

 

Almost 100% of what Marshmellow has written can be found here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=662231

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660309

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660996

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=659958

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=652268

My proposed change would NOT allow a shoot first knockdown if it were to proc out of stealth. That way, you get the damage and the acid blade uptime without the constant stunlock.

The other option would be to either:

1) reducing the cooldown on Backstab to 9 seconds and a proc that makes backstab auto crit

2) A proc that finishes the cooldown on Backstab and makes it auto crit, that cannot occur more than once every x seconds

I'd really like the scrapper tree in particular to have an additional vanish. or the ability to not be popped from stealth by AE effects - perhaps a tweak to sneak as i don't think it's needed to be up all of the time but it's not always ideal to be looking for the stray sheep.

I think that a nice ability for all stealth classes would be a channelled ability to re-enter stealth - more as a way to reduce the sometimes very long downtime between fights than for any direct combat utility.

not sure how id phrase any of those as a question though, i guess - What are the developers thoughts on downtime between effective combat periods for scoundrels/operatives.