http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6019216#edit6019216

 

"As a gentle reminder: Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed. "

 

Dun dun duh.

And in reality it's no better than keeping the black people at the back of the bus, the Asian immigrants on the other side of the river, and people with mental or physical disabilities locked away in some building.

I think I'll add Musco's quote to the suggestion box for SGR companions, as there are some people missing the memo.

And in reality it's no better than keeping the black people at the back of the bus, the Asian immigrants on the other side of the river, and people with mental or physical disabilities locked away in some building.

 

I think I'll add Musco's quote to the suggestion box for SGR companions, as there are some people missing the memo.

Be sure to preserve the original link, in case people accuse you of pulling it out of thin air.

The way I see it, if gay players have had to constantly look at the straight [Flirt] options since day one and have managed to ignore them and go on with their lives, I fail to see why straight players should get special treatment.

Personally, even though I'm straight as a board, I'd like to see SGR options. It would be useful especially for my Agent: as masters of subtlety and deception, I can easily imagine a straight male Agent playing a homosexual NPC like a fiddle to get as much out of him before just leaving him, like a male Mata Hari. It would definitely open up more gameplay options. One of the things I liked about the female Agent in the beginning was that one scene where you could seduce some NPC to stop him from blowing your cover, but unfortunately the male Agent never had such options.

Is anyone going to the cantina tour that's tonight? I think it's in Arizona. Perhaps a few should ask about SGR coming to SWTOR.

I don't think any of us are in Arizona.

I can't even make London, and I think the SWTOR crew like crashing in Birmingham.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6019216#edit6019216

 

"As a gentle reminder: Discussion of the implementation of toggles to filter same gender romance options is considered discriminatory language and is neither appropriate nor allowed on the forums. Posts along this vein of discussion will be removed. "

 

Dun dun duh.

Dunno why they're bothering - it's not like Bioware will ever actually implement a full SGRA. To acknowledge that a portion of their customer base is some combination of LGBT or LGBT-friendly? Perish the thought! Way too much effort - far better to just keep raking in the Neanderthal dollars.

Dunno why they're bothering - it's not like Bioware will ever actually implement a full SGRA. To acknowledge that a portion of their customer base is some combination of LGBT or LGBT-friendly? Perish the thought! Way too much effort - far better to just keep raking in the Neanderthal dollars.

Neanderthal dollars come more easily than Rainbow dollars.

Dunno why they're bothering - it's not like Bioware will ever actually implement a full SGRA. To acknowledge that a portion of their customer base is some combination of LGBT or LGBT-friendly? Perish the thought! Way too much effort - far better to just keep raking in the Neanderthal dollars.

Neanderthal dollars have a faster period of child-to-adulthood, but also suffer from a lack of social interactions as a result, leading to a less complex society and very basic languages skills, if any at all.

This allows the Rainbow dollars to develop effective communication and trade, which cements their ability to not only out-hunt the Neanderthals, but also to survive harsh climes with "primitive" forms of commerce and form lasting colonies.

Wait, I'm thinking of **** sapiens. Good god the clue is in the name. Homosexual sapiens. It all makes sense now.

 

Wait, I'm thinking of **** sapiens. Good god the clue is in the name. Homosexual sapiens. It all makes sense now.

What's **** erectus then??!! A really attractive male?! I NEED TO KNOW!

Unsurprising news - someone claiming to have been at the Cantina event in Phoenix last night said they were told no class/companion story content, continued focus on "planetary stories", etc. And supposedly some kind of storyline starting in 2.7 that will have an "EPIC" ending at years-end.

rabblerabble

Unsurprising news - someone claiming to have been at the Cantina event in Phoenix last night said they were told no class/companion story content, continued focus on "planetary stories", etc. And supposedly some kind of storyline starting in 2.7 that will have an "EPIC" ending at years-end.

 

rabblerabble

Yeah, considering how silent Musco and co. have been on anything mildly story or SGRA-related, coupled with -what is it? Star Wars Galaxies? - rumours about new Star Wars based MMO, maybe the "epic" ending is the game closing?

Because honestly, they aren't putting much effort in.

Yeah, considering how silent Musco and co. have been on anything mildly story or SGRA-related, coupled with -what is it? Star Wars Galaxies? - rumours about new Star Wars based MMO, maybe the "epic" ending is the game closing?

 

Because honestly, they aren't putting much effort in.

*Sighs* That's too bad as it was a major selling point of this game, and it's being left at the wayside.

*Sighs* That's too bad as it was a major selling point of this game, and it's being left at the wayside.

Well, they did say they wouldn't put story content on the Cartel Market, and considering all of their production value* is going on the Cartel Market, why would they bother? It's not like they can make an expansion and sell that for money via the website...

*hyperbole mine

Dunno why they're bothering - it's not like Bioware will ever actually implement a full SGRA. To acknowledge that a portion of their customer base is some combination of LGBT or LGBT-friendly? Perish the thought! Way too much effort - far better to just keep raking in the Neanderthal dollars.

Never played the Mass Effect series? If your character is female, you can pursue a same-sex romance starting with the 1st game, and that companion's romance arc is actually more substantial than any other character in the trilogy, so it obviously wasn't just BioWare throwing a bone at their LGBT fans.

Never played the Mass Effect series? If your character is female, you can pursue a same-sex romance starting with the 1st game, and that companion's romance arc is actually more substantial than any other character in the trilogy, so it obviously wasn't just BioWare throwing a bone at their LGBT fans.

And Dragon Age's record on this topic is even better.

Never played the Mass Effect series? If your character is female, you can pursue a same-sex romance starting with the 1st game, and that companion's romance arc is actually more substantial than any other character in the trilogy, so it obviously wasn't just BioWare throwing a bone at their LGBT fans.

Isn't Austin largely complied of outsiders from Bioware? Like, EA made the studio to do this, and brought in new people (yes, Ms. Hepler is Bioware-stock, but she also wrote Corso). Doesn't mean they were all on board with original Bioware's ethos. As evidenced by the fact that we didn't have SGRA content at launch with the reasoning "would've taken too much time *shrug*"

Isn't Austin largely complied of outsiders from Bioware? Like, EA made the studio to do this, and brought in new people (yes, Ms. Hepler is Bioware-stock, but she also wrote Corso). Doesn't mean they were all on board with original Bioware's ethos. As evidenced by the fact that we didn't have SGRA content at launch with the reasoning "would've taken too much time *shrug*"

I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon

I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon

The FAQ in my signature does list what Natashina could find of Mr. Lucas' position (and subsequently, one can assume Lucas Art's) on the subject. True, that might be a "personal" position, but given the move toward a more inclusive position for many companions in recent years, one would have assumed that a Bioware studio, owned by EA which attended Gaymer Con and has its own "inclusion expert", would have actually made an effort.

I always just assumed the reasoning behind no SGRA in this game (as well as KOTOR) was that Star Wars is Lucasarts' IP, not Bioware's, and Lucasarts is too afraid of being accused of "corrupting the young people" by putting homosexuality in Star Wars. Hell, it took them 30 years just to introduce the first openly gay man in the SW canon

*** SPOILERS *** If that were the case, I really doubt Erickson and Co. would have spent the first year saying it was going to happen. Granted, their "companion SGR is totally coming, with the characters that make sense" mantra turned out to be some random Sith and a bi woman who will never reappear - judging by the Consular's mentor in Act 1, characters with possible deaths in their branching options are simply forgotten about if they live.

I've played through 4 classes now, 2 male chars and 2 femals chars, and I can see why removing the "gender-check" cannot happen. Mostly this is because of Austin's sexism though.

I can see the problems they've created for themselves and understand why changing any of it will be a very time consuming task. That said, this doesn't compute at all with their other statement that the inclusion was somehow still forth coming and didn't happen because of time and budgetary constraints at initial release. They put other lines in there, and they made the stories different depending on the gender of your character. They made it hard on themselves.

And this gendered approach doesn't make a better story, I felt like the female Warrior was treated childlike, as if she is some kind of innocent tween whom desperately needs a girlfriend to go to the bathrooms with because going alone is not really girl-like. Female equates girl, whereas male equates man. This difference is classic sexism. Either all characters should be approached as children/teens and there is a Sith Warrior boy and a Sith Warrior girl, or both are considered adults, and there is an SW man and an SW woman. Of course that doesn't happen. Manhood is Warriorlike, female warriors are threathening and non-sexy to the male gaze, so we have a female character in girlhood, innocence that is either to be corrupted for the male *****, or childlike sweetness that for some is fatherhood pride and others a *****.

Playing through yet another class has not made me feel better about the writing in the game, it's not at the level of what I'm used to from BioWare. And I get that people say, this is an MMO, the writing will be weaker. Of course the writing of most quests is simplified because of the nature of an MMO, going through dialogue in a group can be tedious. But that doesn't excuse the writing of the class story, where it should've really been made to shine, nor does it excuse the writing of the companion stories, which are a single player affair. These stories have no excuse for being the way that they are.

Okay, so I've come to agree with Austin that rewriting the companion stories is a very time consuming task. But.. I actually would like to see them changed, because the lack of SGRA isn't the only problem with them, many of these stories are extremely problematic from a woman's perspective, and they should be for men, but unfortunately we live in a rape culture, and these terrible power dynamics, lack of agency and consent are completely normalised. That doesn't mean that they are good though, they may be normalised, but they're still terrible. And that shouldn't just concern women, is there seriously any man whom is proud that all men are essentially rapists until proven otherwise? Are there seriously any men whom like to see rape scenarios over and over again in their games? I guess there are, but I do hope a majority will come to see there are better stories to be told.

The Warrior's companion stories left such a bad taste in my mouth that after this set of stories, if they won't rewrite them, let them just please remove them alltogether. It's been suggested by people whom are terrified of SGRA to just remove all romance, and this is an option that at this point I can also live with. I'm sure there are plenty of rapists whom will still RP their power rape scenario with their companions, but please don't make us all go through it in cinematics. I've seen enough, thank you. And I'd rather not know that 13 year old children are playing through these, this is yet another tool of instruction for rape culture and the patriarchy, that is damaging not just to girls and women, but also robs boys of having the chance to learn a healthy way of relating to the other gender. Lots of boys will be acting out these scenarios and not understand that they are hurting the person that they are trying to have a romantic or sexual relationship with. That hurts girls, but it also hurts boys. It's not good for anyone.

From all the class and companion stories that I've been through now, the SI, BH, SW and IA, the Imperial Agent is definately, and by far, the best one.

I've played through 4 classes now, 2 male chars and 2 femals chars, and I can see why removing the "gender-check" cannot happen. Mostly this is because of Austin's sexism though.

 

 

In the Female Warrior story for example Vette is made to be the little sister to the Warrior, and while puns are made about lesbians in a Nar Shaddaa instance, one cannot actually flirt or romance anyone but Quinn and Pierce. The dialogue of a male and female Warrior with their companions are different, in a sexist way too, and removing gender from the equation would create all kinds of problems.

 

And then there is the human trafficing, forced prostitution, exploitation of women and speciesism all over Vette's story. Now I get some writers' and fans' defenses, stories are also there to create problematic situations for a player that they need to deal with. This isn't about that. If my character could actually say something or do something about this, then it wouldn't be a problem. But the options that are given are problematic. You can either buy freedom without commenting on the situation, or you can leave them be, or you can buy one for yourself to exploit and abuse as you see fit. That isn't good story writing, that's just general mysogony and male dominance that is omnipresent in our own society. This isn't cool, because real agency is missing from this story.

 

And then there is Quinn. I've seen people complain about Quinn, but my primary concern isn't with Quinn's behaviour, it is with the female Warrior's behaviour. This story must have been written by a man, because these character's stereotypical gender roles have been reversed. Quinn is the woman in the workplace whom doesn't want to keep having to deal with sexual advances of her male boss, Quinn keeps saying No No No No No, and the warrior just does whatever pleases the warrior. It is total sexual harrassment, and in a flipped gender role. Good stories are written when characters are rounded, when characters' frames of reference and their lived experiences as their character make sense. In a Sith empire that is run by men, where especially Twi'lek women are exploited and sex slaves, in no way does it make any sense that a female warrior rapes her male subordinate.

Just a quick clarification here: the divide between Sith and non-Sith vastly outclasses any other distinction, be it gender or even species. There might be more men than women on the Dark Council, but female Sith have just as many privileges as male Sith, and Sith can, in a legal sense, do pretty much whatever they want with non-Sith. So the Quinn situation is, to me, totally believable. Of course, the harassment issue would still be problematic (saying this having never played SW for any length).

And this gendered approach doesn't make a better story, I felt like the female Warrior was treated childlike, as if she is some kind of innocent tween whom desperately needs a girlfriend to go to the bathrooms with because going alone is not really girl-like. Female equates girl, whereas male equates man. This difference is classic sexism. Either all characters should be approached as children/teens and there is a Sith Warrior boy and a Sith Warrior girl, or both are considered adults, and there is an SW man and an SW woman. Of course that doesn't happen. Manhood is Warriorlike, female warriors are threathening and non-sexy to the male gaze, so we have a female character in girlhood, innocence that is either to be corrupted for the male *****, or childlike sweetness that for some is fatherhood pride and others a *****.

Does it change so sharply? That'd be very odd, because while I've only ever finished Korriban as a Warrior, the female one seems pretty hardcore and not at all sweet or innocent (except in the rather awkward instance of not knowing the Sith Code, which applies to both genders).

If it helps, I have made it quite far through the Consular and Inquisitor storylines, and I haven't seen any signs of them doing that to female PCs of those classes.

Okay, so I've come to agree with Austin that rewriting the companion stories is a very time consuming task. But.. I actually would like to see them changed, because the lack of SGRA isn't the only problem with them, many of these stories are extremely problematic from a woman's perspective, and they should be for men, but unfortunately we live in a rape culture, and these terrible power dynamics, lack of agency and consent are completely normalised. That doesn't mean that they are good though, they may be normalised, but they're still terrible. And that shouldn't just concern women, is there seriously any man whom is proud that all men are essentially rapists until proven otherwise? Are there seriously any men whom like to see rape scenarios over and over again in their games? I guess there are, but I do hope a majority will come to see there are better stories to be told.

Do you see this systematically outside the SW storyline?

For the rest of your post, I agree with you, with the caveat that the patriarchy isn't a conspiracy, but a set of cultural trends that, for the most part, guides people unconsciously. Certainly worthy of change, but it's not the doing of evil overlords.

For the rest of your post, I agree with you, with the caveat that the patriarchy isn't a conspiracy, but a set of cultural trends that, for the most part, guides people unconsciously. Certainly worthy of change, but it's not the doing of evil overlords.

You obviously don't know about the secret conference call between all men of the world scheduled tonight. This is to be followed by local meetings of all white males, then all white English-speaking males, and then all Protestant, white English-speaking males.

The objective is to develop a Secret Charter of Patriarchy.

- Arcada

I thought I'd post this link here. I've been working slowly on a fanfic about the Lord Cytharat romance that involves my sniper, who is gay in my own head canon. I took the Makeb story line and expanded upon it. I can post the first three chapters now, as I'm working on chapter 4. Hopefully chapter will be done soon.

Anyway, guys, I appreciate the feedback on it and I hope you enjoy a more expanded version of the glimpses of SGR in the game. Link: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=7188002#post7188002

You obviously don't know about the secret conference call between all men of the world scheduled tonight. This is to be followed by local meetings of all white males, then all white English-speaking males, and then all Protestant, white English-speaking males.

 

The objective is to develop a Secret Charter of Patriarchy.

 

- Arcada

It's self-perpetuating by making itself seemingly invisible, then giving power to cishet white dudes who don't see it and having them yell "Well it wasn't a problem before/doesn't affect me".

As for Fabiyun's question about whether the men playing this game are ok with rape - there's a good chance (statistically speaking) that a reasonable portion of the male playerbase are rapists and/or rape apologists. Hell, some of them may even think this game needs more or overt rape. Because us nasty wimminz are coming in and playing "their" manly game.