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Are Sith really evil?


dr_mike's Avatar


dr_mike
03.07.2016 , 12:34 PM | #981
Quote: Originally Posted by AarenJ View Post
What's an edgelord?
A quick google points you to this:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...?term=edgelord
Who knows what lurks in the minds of those crazy Sith....
1% gets donated to unemployed Jawas living on Hoth

Maevena's Avatar


Maevena
03.07.2016 , 12:42 PM | #982
Quote: Originally Posted by AarenJ View Post
What's an edgelord?
What dr_mike linked, usually teenagers with no understanding of moral concepts that spout nonsense such as "There is no right and wrong, no good and evil. It's all perspective! We can't pass moral judgement! Shades of Graaaaay" and think they are being deep and meaningful.

As a philosopher (granted, philosophy of science) major, they are my natural enemy

ZanyaCross's Avatar


ZanyaCross
03.07.2016 , 01:14 PM | #983
Quote: Originally Posted by Ziggoratt View Post
I've seen this topic come up a number of times, and it's gotten me to thinking: Are the Sith really a truly evil organization, or are they just completely misrepresented by people like Palpatine?
As an organization they are elitist, racist, oppressive, and they support slavery.

Even Marr and Lana, two of the most reasonable Sith we meet, can best be described as "Lawful Evil" and "Lawful Neutral", respectively. Most of the others we meet are so far into "Chaotic Evil" that they'll gladly throw away a tactical advantage if it means less a killin' to do.

Spoiler

AarenJ's Avatar


AarenJ
03.07.2016 , 01:51 PM | #984
Quote: Originally Posted by Maevena View Post
What dr_mike linked, usually teenagers with no understanding of moral concepts that spout nonsense such as "There is no right and wrong, no good and evil. It's all perspective! We can't pass moral judgement! Shades of Graaaaay" and think they are being deep and meaningful.

As a philosopher (granted, philosophy of science) major, they are my natural enemy
Philosophy eh? Enemies, you say?

ganondorq's Avatar


ganondorq
03.08.2016 , 01:04 AM | #985
sith are individuals, which means one sith may be evil, while the other isn't.

the jedi aren't evil, they're just kinda stuffy and boring.

Feldraeth's Avatar


Feldraeth
03.08.2016 , 02:36 AM | #986
According to the Third edition of the Dungeons and Dragons Player Handbook, 'evil implies hurting oppressing and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualm if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.'

Conversely, 'Good implies altruism, respect for life and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

From these admittedly loose definitions, it is clear that the culture of the Jedi is objectively good, and the culture of the Sith is objectively evil. The Sith on the whole have a Spencerian power fantasy as their main cultural force, with elements of an outdated caste system, oppression of non-humans (near-human and genuinely alien). In short, their culture exists to enable absolute freedom for the few who rise to the top. Conversely, The Jedi are characterised by service and compassion. This is best seen through Renata Agethon [sp?] (the little girl quest giver in Coruscant's Justicar district) who states that it is common belief that a Jedi will appear when a child suffers or needs help.

The next real question is Why? Why do the Jedi and Sith conform to such archetypes. The Doylian reasoning that they are the heroes and villains of the movies comes to mind, but I shall only use Watsonian (for more information, follow the same link as Doylian) reasoning from here on out. The answer stems from their ideology.

The Jedi believe that the force is both a living entity and a unifying presence that holds the galaxy together. They treat it as an ally more than a weapon, refraining from its use (a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence. Never for attack *cough Telekinetics Sages cough*) and allow it to guide their actions. This reverence for life extends to the physical world also, as helping and saving others aids the force, while all killing strengthens the dark side. As of such, a Jedi should only seek to kill if there is no other choice, and there is a greater net gain of life preserved. As such, you see Obi Wan creeping around the first Death Star avoiding battle wherever possible and later offer up his life to buy Han, Chewie, Luke and Leia time to escape.

The Sith believe the force is a beast of burden, to be broken and mastered, and from this ideology springs the dark side. It is a corruption of the force simply due to the way it is treated. Jedi (Yoda & Obi Wan in Empire) say that strong dark emotions like fear, anger, greed, pride, jealousy, aggression and hate lead to the dark side, though it is more likely that all forms of strong emotion will do it, as they create 'ripples' in the force that can be sensed by others. Likewise, they spread this need for control (yes a paradox, but you must have chains to be able to break them) to every aspect of their lives. A good example (lore tight but not cannon due to its nature) is Mirdthestrill's She who hunts monsters: An assassin's tale, a fan-fiction that portrays a Sith's time at the academy with far more grace than the 3-4 hours players spend there (in real-time).

It should be noted that simply because the Jedi are good and Sith evil doesn't make them palatable or unpalatable. For example, many decry the Jedi practice of recrutiing by taking infants as evil, and from a pro-freedom and choice society such as ours (Western Europe and Northern America to name a section), it is wrong. Likewise, there are some aspects of the Sith that people like, such as the drive for freedom from restriction (though that may fall into power fantasy).

Furthermore, simply because a culture is one thing does not mean that all of its adherents are that thing. For example, Jun Seros certainly does not act in a goodly manner, and neither does Nomen Kar. Both have others killed for their goals, literally and figuratively.

Conversely, Darth Marr (a title only gained through a complete understanding and mastery of the dark side) and Lana Beniko act in a pragmatic manner, sublimating their right to absolute freedom for the good of the empire. It is telling however, that the same two examples are trotted out each time, as there are few "good" Sith, with the majority (Praven, Sajar etc) being converted to the Jedi and even then, those two are more a heroic neutral than actually good. Perhaps a more telling example is Lord Hargrev from the oricon planetary questline. He is a sadist, revelling in sowing fear and pain among others, yet when he views the dread masters, he has a crisis of conscience and possibly redeems himself when he is given leave to destroy the twisted knowledge of the Dread Masters.

so, to conclude (TLR) Good and evil have definitions, Sith are objectively evil and Jedi are objectively good. Their ideologies and applications mark them as such. That doesn't make either one nice. Furthermore, not everyone who adheres to a culture follows it properly. There are evil Jedi. Although the majority of Sith are evil, there are few neutral Sith with possibly an exception that proves the rule.

AarenJ's Avatar


AarenJ
03.08.2016 , 02:42 PM | #987
/Thread.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
03.09.2016 , 11:15 AM | #988
Quote:
It should be noted that simply because the Jedi are good and Sith evil doesn't make them palatable or unpalatable. For example, many decry the Jedi practice of recrutiing by taking infants as evil, and from a pro-freedom and choice society such as ours (Western Europe and Northern America to name a section), it is wrong. Likewise, there are some aspects of the Sith that people like, such as the drive for freedom from restriction (though that may fall into power fantasy).
Still don't get this part. I've seen nothing that says they just take the child. It's a child or an orphan given to them. The child is then free to go if they so desire when they're older.

Basically they become no different than having parents who make them go to church or a child who goes "OMG! I hate my parents!"

I have seen no "They just take the child regardless of what the parent says" and from what I've read are much better foster parents than many a real life ones
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

cool-dude's Avatar


cool-dude
03.09.2016 , 01:29 PM | #989
I always took the Sith code as telling you to be the best. Nothing in there about killing entire villages for no reason.
I'm a cool dude

Joachimthbear's Avatar


Joachimthbear
03.09.2016 , 02:45 PM | #990
Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
I always took the Sith code as telling you to be the best. Nothing in there about killing entire villages for no reason.
Perhaps not in so many words, but if you're Force sensitive, it effectively tells you to use the Dark Side, and the side effects of the Dark Side including killing entire villages for no (good) reason. And if you're not Force sensitive then the final line of the Code makes it clear it's not for you.