First, I want to say that I would hate for this to turn into a massive wall of arguments. Balance is a matter of opinion and perspective. It is NOT fact. Of course there are certain things that are generally agreed on such as the Merc being at the bottom of the food chain, it doesn't necessarily make it fact. There are more Muslims on this planet than any other religion... Millions of people believe in the book of Mormon... it does not make either of them fact nor undeniably true. An extreme example but I would hope that some of you see my point.

 

So... to the point of this thread.

 

It is not intended for people to complain marauders are still OP, or that mercs are still under powered. But simply, I am curious if people think that 1.4 balance in PvP is better or worse than it was in 1. 3, and why.

What little PVP I was able to do last night, everything seemed great. From my perspective and overall general chat.

Now saying that, I did not pull out my WH Merc .

Edited September 27, 2012 by Mancer

What little PVP I was able to do last night, everything seemed great. From my perspective and overall general chat.

Now saying that, I did not pull out my WH Merc .

 

That's what I'm expecting... of course there are still complaints. But I feel like I've seen very little balance complaints in comparison to the norm. Other than the rage buff and mercs and sorcs didn't get enough blah blah blah. But it seems that over all there are less balance complaints.

 

I didn't get much play time in last night either... XCOM demo, but it appears as if generally people feel balance is improved. Not perfect.... but improved.

From a Commando perspective. I don't like it! I used to wtfpwn Mara's all day errday! With the nerf to the plasma cell snare, they can catch up!! Nothing else has really changed... Shadows/assassins are still OP. PT's/VG's are still OP burst wise. Snipers are fine. Sorcs/Sages hit a tad bit harder, but that's ok. Too many smash Juggs/Guardians running around... New FOTM? Resolve is worse. Class wise tho, only the snare nerf to my Commando is an issue.

. Not perfect.... but improved.

 

This right here pretty much sums it up, for me anyway. This was the most well rounded update I have seen to date.

From a Commando perspective. I don't like it! I used to wtfpwn Mara's all day errday! With the nerf to the plasma cell snare, they can catch up!! Nothing else has really changed... Shadows/assassins are still OP. PT's/VG's are still OP burst wise. Snipers are fine. Sorcs/Sages hit a tad bit harder, but that's ok. Too many smash Juggs/Guardians running around... New FOTM? Resolve is worse. Class wise tho, only the snare nerf to my Commando is an issue.

 

I noticed an increase in smash jug and especially marauders over the last month or so. This just solidified it I think. Really not sure why they felt it needed a buff.

Healing on my Sorc is much better, but DPS is still way to squishy. I wouldn't mind being squishy if I could melt people in return.

 

I wont comment on the Rage changes. We already know the QQ train has left on that.

 

I like the change to PT's, the range nerf means they have a weakness, even if they still have high burst.

 

I think balance is a bit better, but I'm still of the opinion that damage (burst) is still to high.

Buffs to Focus/Rage tree were completely unwarranted and unnecessary. I did not think the spec was OP but sure as hell no sane person believed it to be underperforming. Guardians have to face the fact that Vigilance is now faaar inferior in PvP and only on a par with Focus in PvE.

 

The other changes were relatively minor, balance-wise.

Well aside from seeing more smash jugs/mara and a mind bottling increase of deception assassins (lol made my night really) I would say things are the same as far as a few changes here and there.

 

 

Still not sold on the new changes to resolve I seem to have spent more time CCed than usual but its only one night and it might get better.

I do not like the nerf to Vengeance tree. I mean, it would be better if they just took away pooled hatred and gave something else, at least we could spend the 2 points and get something that is worth. This just adds that there will be more smashers too.

 

Aside from that and the overload animation, I think the changes are nice. I wish they made ravage interruptable (maybe talented to not interrupt). But meh.

I am currently running a hybrid sorc (lighning/corruption) and I have to say, for the first time in a long time, pvp on a sorc is fun and somewhat viable again. I haven't noticed any lack of viability in my other toons, sent still owns, gunslinger is fine, haven't played the pyrotech, though he's probably been hit the most.

 

Before this patch, sorc wasn't fun in any build I tried.

aside from resolve things look good so far. That being said I have only played my Smash Jugg and my AP PT. I have yet to play my sniper/sorc/merc/oper/assass. I'll probably get to those next week.

 

I'll tell you this. With the resolve changes the damage reduction when stunned (and to all AOEs) is very nice on my PT.

I am currently running a hybrid sorc (lighning/corruption) and I have to say, for the first time in a long time, pvp on a sorc is fun and somewhat viable again. I haven't noticed any lack of viability in my other toons, sent still owns, gunslinger is fine, haven't played the pyrotech, though he's probably been hit the most.

 

Before this patch, sorc wasn't fun in any build I tried.

 

That sorc spec you're running is tremendous as of yesterday. The way backlash was changed works with the way resolve was changed perfectly. It went from counterproductive to a complete game-changer.

 

As far as Pyros, only played two matches. Changes didn't really hurt at all in civil war, but I've never felt more useless on any toon in a huttball match as I did yesterday with a pyro.

Well aside from seeing more smash jugs/mara and a mind bottling increase of deception assassins (lol made my night really) I would say things are the same as far as a few changes here and there.

 

 

Still not sold on the new changes to resolve I seem to have spent more time CCed than usual but its only one night and it might get better.

 

Same thoughts here basically after a day with 1.4. I suppose I'll dust off my marauder and assassin too, I've stayed off that bandwagon so far. I noticed some CDs are different for my vanguard, will need a little time to understand what's different exactly.

In my opinion, the balance hasn't been good since before 1.2.

 

As far as Pyros, only played two matches. Changes didn't really hurt at all in civil war, but I've never felt more useless on any toon in a huttball match as I did yesterday with a pyro.

 

I didn't play much yesterday and didn't get on PT at all except for to check out CD's, distances, etc... but did you have a chance to play around with the opener of explosive dart vs TD or the combination of both and how it affects DPS?

 

What were your thoughts on how the rotation should or has changed?

Edited September 27, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

From a Commando perspective. I don't like it! I used to wtfpwn Mara's all day errday! With the nerf to the plasma cell snare, they can catch up!! Nothing else has really changed... Shadows/assassins are still OP. PT's/VG's are still OP burst wise. Snipers are fine. Sorcs/Sages hit a tad bit harder, but that's ok. Too many smash Juggs/Guardians running around... New FOTM? Resolve is worse. Class wise tho, only the snare nerf to my Commando is an issue.

 

I'm really really really missing the knockback stockstrike. Man, i wish they would've handled it differently. It should be a knockback + 2 sec root imo.

My impressions of 1.4 combat after playing last night on my Shadow:

 

1. TTK is Lightning Fast. TTK has dropped in such an extreme way that I think there may be something mechanically wrong...i.e. the Damage Reduction from Expertise is not working properly or the DPS gains from the EWH Weapon changes are inordinate and unexpected. Something is definitely off. Not complaining as I will adapt to whatever needs to be done, but a longer TTK promotes better fights and in PvP I'm really only interested in good fights.

 

My Shadow has 21k Health unbuffed, 1347 Expertise and still gets melted like butter sans defensive cooldowns. I can only imagine what it's like for other classes without those stats who do not possess any of the defensive cooldowns.

 

Current TTK also weights matches heavily, more than ever, in favor of who has Healers. In RWZs, this isn't a big deal, but in NWZs this can be a source of frustration due to the class randomness. Even more reason to roll premade or not at all now.

 

2. The New Force Wave is Awesome!. I just love the new Force Wave. It took a little getting used to (one Huttball match), but after adjusting, it's great. I definitely prefer this FW over the old one although the new animation is pretty weak sauce.

 

3. Amount of CC Felt the Same. As I play mainly melee toons, CC was always a pain in the azz. So I didn't notice much of a difference last night. I was CC'd about as often as I'm usually CC'd. What I did notice though is that usage of my CC Breaker changed because my Resolve was rarely, if ever, full. Standard practice has been to wait for Full Resolve, then pop the CC-B. But that practice went out the door last night since my Resolve never seemed to fill. So use of my CC Breaker was a lot more situationally based rather than mechanically based.

 

4. Didn't Notice Force Stun Distance Reduction that Often. I did notice it a couple times, but in those cases, I used my Force Pull instead. Again, my Shadow is primarily melee so I didn't suspect the change would be glaring. It probably impacts other classes in a bigger way.

 

5. Elusiveness Change is Strange and Will Take Some Getting Used to. Not having a steady 18s CD on Resilience is weird. I haven't fully adapted to this change on my Shadow. However, Resilience always seemed to be there when I needed it and I wasn't as Force starved as pre-1.4.

 

6. Merc/Commando Healers are Legit. I always thought Merc/Commando Healers were strong before, but after the 1.4 changes, they seem really strong and harder to bring down. I think this is a good thing as it will lead to a bigger variety of Healers accepted in RWZ teams.

Thanks for the detailed feedback Darth... interesting note on TTK. Didn't play much last night but it seems to drop with every major patch. I'll def have to pay attention when I get on tonight and actually get some solid time in game.

I didn't play much yesterday and didn't get on PT at all except for to check out... but did you have a chance to play around with the opener of explosive dart vs TD or the combination of both and how it affects DPS?

 

What were your thoughts on how the rotation should or has changed?

 

Should have said Vangaurd. Have both.

 

It was only two matches in the lowbie bracket, but yeah, I started using the other one (not assault plastique) when closing gaps. It worked reasonably well. Less burst on the way in, but whatevs. Still softens the target up a bit while I'm closing in.

 

AP I started using as more of a kiting tool (dot target, dot and slow target, AP, line of sight around pillar so the dots tick and they take a big hit without me getting any damage back, re engage) that sort of thing and it worked really well for that.

 

The snare change seemed negligible.

 

IM's 10m range is a real problem, though. Ultimately I started chaining and using that the same way I was using AP (slapping that on only if I'm disengaging for a second for reasons outlined above). Other than that use, it didn't seem worth the ammo.

 

there's definitely a dead spot now. Can toss a dart from 30m (and taunt if necessary) while running in, but it hammer shots doesn't proc the cylander...that's it. Wasnt a huge deal in civil war. But it huttball, if harpoon wasn't available, I felt like I wasn't contributing. I scored a goal and set one up (in a loss), but felt like a complete drag on my team.

 

Edit: Oh, you asked for raw damage effect. I didn't see any real difference in civil war and damage doesn't mean anything in huttball.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Larry_Dallas

Should have said Vangaurd. Have both.

 

It was only two matches in the lowbie bracket, but yeah, I started using the other one (not assault plastique) when closing gaps. It worked reasonably well. Less burst on the way in, but whatevs. Still softens the target up a bit while I'm closing in.

 

AP I started using as more of a kiting tool (dot target, dot and slow target, AP, line of sight around pillar so the dots tick and they take a big hit without me getting any damage back, re engage) that sort of thing and it worked really well for that.

 

The snare change seemed negligible.

 

IM's 10m range is a real problem, though. Ultimately I started chaining and using that the same way I was using AP (slapping that on only if I'm disengaging for a second for reasons outlined above). Other than that use, it didn't seem worth the ammo.

 

there's definitely a dead spot now. Can toss a dart from 30m (and taunt if necessary) while running in, but it hammer shots doesn't proc the cylander...that's it. Wasnt a huge deal in civil war. But it huttball, if harpoon wasn't available, I felt like I wasn't contributing. I scored a goal and set one up (in a loss), but felt like a complete drag on my team.

 

Edit: Oh, you asked for raw damage effect. I didn't see any real difference in civil war and damage doesn't mean anything in huttball.

 

Yeah... I can see the effectiveness in HB lacking now. PT/VG's are going to spend a lot of time chasing the fight now with the limited 30m attacks. On the bright side maybe it will teach the masses to taunt since it'll be one of the only options after spamming fusion missile and over heating at 30m.

Edited September 27, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

Buffs to Focus/Rage tree were completely unwarranted and unnecessary. I did not think the spec was OP but sure as hell no sane person believed it to be underperforming. Guardians have to face the fact that Vigilance is now faaar inferior in PvP and only on a par with Focus in PvE.

 

The other changes were relatively minor, balance-wise.

 

Vigilance/Vengeance was always inferior for pure DPS guard/jugs. If you didn't know this before, then you didn't know the potential of Rage before 1.4.

I have only one 50 toon a sorc healer. Before I had a chance to play I read all of the crap people were saying about the changes in the forums. Mostly negative so I had to try for myself. I played for a few hours, but I must say that I've healed better than I ever healed before. The self heal is like having an unlimited wz medpac so it keeps me up longer. The stun range is shorter which kind of sucks, but since I'm a healer it is still useful to kite. The new sprint is awesome and still getting use to the overload knockback. I've never had a problem with my sorc healer, but now I heal even better so for me I think the balance is getting better, but still not perfect.

I play the weakest class and I got two nerfs.

 

Needless to say I can't keep paying for a product I don't enjoy.

You can't balance the game if you don't play the game.

 

Devs are not playing the game, so they don't really understand what's wrong with it.

Patch after patch, we just go from one FOTM class to another FOTM class.