A lot of conjecture and opinions being thrown around for EIGHT PAGES, and not a single fact.

Let me ask you folks some real, hard questions:

1. Does Jarring Strike (knockdown attached to the Hidden Strike via talent) fill the resolve bar completely?

Some people claim it doesn't, some claim it does. If it fills your resolve bar completely, there's no such thing as "two stuns" or "stunlock" or anything of the sort. You would be immune. Can anyone actually TEST this?

2. Can it be trinketed?

Again, some claim it can't be, others claim it can. If it can be trinketed, what are you complaining about? You take one hit, you trinket the CC, and if the answer to the previous question is true, you are also immune to any other CC the Operative can toss at you. But he's not immune to yours. And now his element of surprise is gone.

3. If Jarring Strike/Hidden Strike is nerfed, what do you see the Operative's role as?

Because without burst, they become inoperative. Their sustained damage is nowhere near good enough, and they have virtually zero AoE (grenade AoE is really weak, and Orbital Strike is very slow - 8 sec channel). No burst would make them combat ineffective.

ANY ability that gets CC added through a talent neither gives nor respects Resolve.

 

 

GG Mythic, GG.

You're WRONG. The 1 knockdown they do - Jarring Strike - gives a FULL resolve bar and you can break out of it. I actually played the Concealment Operative to 50.

Mercs and Sorc get the big damage with AoE abiltiies. AoE doesn't piss people off as much because 1.) You can walk out of the missiles obviously falling down on your head and 2.) You don't die 1v1 quickly like you do against a burst single target ability.

Anyways, I've only been slaughtered by a scoundrel once. A level 50 scoundrel will slaughter a lower level Merc in seconds. However, that is more of an issue with mixing the levels. I'm worried they don't even try to balance the average level each team has.

I haven't seen many scoundrels/operatives so I can't say much other than geared 50s ruin the lower level pvp.

Never had a problem with a operative here. I have been poped on several times by one, but they only take me to half. Cc em and start hitting them hard with whatever you got. 9 times outta 10 that operative melts. Imo operatives and scondrels are just fine where they are at.

Thats funny... I'm a PvP geared lvl 50 marauder and they take me to 10%.

It's so hard to call for nerfs when PvP currently consists of lvl 50s fighting lvl 10s and very few people have good gear.

Good gear means more health, less damage taken, etc.

However...

Good gear also means more damage done, and potentially more burst.

So really, no one actually knows what legitimate lvl 50 PvP looks like.

(legit lvl 50 PvP = full team of lvl 50s with gear vs another team of 50s with gear)

ALL THAT BEING SAID....

I actually agree with the OP to some degree. The damage for scoundrel/operative is a little too front loaded. They SHOULD do a lot of damage, but BW shouldn't make it so dependent on the opener. I think what the OP points out, more than anything, is that if you get caught in that 1.5-2 min window where you don't have your CC breaker, you are going to get stun locked and CC'd to death.

Everyone know's that the best way to stop the burst is to use the CC breaker on the intial stun and slow down their burst, but the point is that when you CAN'T break the stun lock you have a very small chance of surviving.

Here's my wishlist for scoundrels then.

1. Buff my damage so I can open up with 6k crits on Shoot First on 50's instead of 1.7-2.2 non crit.

2. Make my knockdown not affected by resolve and can't be removed by CC removal.

3. Make it so I can 3v1 50's and still kill one.

4. Make is so my 3 second knockdown can also chain with my dirty kick for actual stunlocking.

5. Make it so my Backblast and shoot first not have positional requirements.

6. Also make it so my backblast crits for 6k so I can actually 2 shot people.

7. Make it so I only have to hit one ability multiple times to kill someone.

8. Make my heals viable during combat.

9. Make it so I can get away 100% of the time to restealth, while you're at it make it so I can restealth immediately after I get 20 feet from someone instead of waiting 10 seconds.

10. Make it so my Disappearing Act Talent actually work so that I can be healed during the 10 seconds after I use it.

11. Also nerf tanks. Taunt should be removed from the game and so should guard. Also the pull and charge that comes with a root.

12. And make Warzones all about 1v1 cause thats the only thing I'm good at.

13. And nerf situational awareness in Warzones, that gets old fast.

14. And of course give me 100% crit instead of 33% on backblast and shoot first.

So overall a 30-40% damage increase to get some of the numbers that are posted here in this forum.

Sarcasm aside I do think Smuggle and Infiltrate need to be hotfixed so they do not stealth objective cappers.

So.. this thread is a complaint about Burst Dmg in a 1v1 scenario... in a game that has no current "Arena" environment. Yeah...

Don't get me wrong.. 1v1's happen all the time.. but you can't balance around that. You take away a class like Scoundrels ability to burst.. then they bring almost nothing to an actual organized group in Warzones.

And what would the repercussion to the PvE side be if you nerfed them? Oh but no one cares about PvE because this is the PvP subforum!

I'm not a PvE guy and I have no scoundrel (in fact I play a Sage) but reading this thread, it's amazing how much conjecture is thrown around and how there's almost no thought to the consequences of the nerf request.

Someone killed the crap out of you in PvP. It's GOING to happen occasionally. Suck it up and move on.

Just had almost the exact same scenario happen again.

 

This time the scoundrel cc'ed me from stealth. So I couldnt do anything while he then destroyed one guy and then destroyed me afterwards.

 

This is so blatantly OP that anyone who claims otherwise should rethink their motives for doing so.

So you were CC'd from stealth and did not pop your break . . . and watched your friend die. Sigh . . . every class has a break, every class has some kind of cc. Every class has a couple of burst moves, most classes have specs with dots.

Break, and either dot him, or cc him. Then put some burst on him yourself if he tries to run away with the dot on he is screwed.

Any time a post says, I was CC'd from stealth and doesn't immediately say I broke cc and dotted or CC'd him back then your not doing it right.

Dieing when you do nothing is not a compelling reference against which any class should be nerfed.

The break is not on the GCD if I remember correctly. You can literally break and immediately cc, or dot. The CC from stealth IS on the GCD . . . the opener move IS on the GCD.

See the problem with your analysis . . .

You're WRONG. The 1 knockdown they do - Jarring Strike - gives a FULL resolve bar and you can break out of it. I actually played the Concealment Operative to 50.

No ability gives full resolve. Stuns give ~400.

No ability gives full resolve. Stuns give ~400.

Yes my knockdown does. It is an immediate white bar, along with my dart.

The only CC's that can be chained on this class is Dirty Kick and Flash bang. Flash Bang also breaks on damage.

So.. this thread is a complaint about Burst Dmg in a 1v1 scenario... in a game that has no current "Arena" environment. Yeah...

 

Don't get me wrong.. 1v1's happen all the time.. but you can't balance around that. You take away a class like Scoundrels ability to burst.. then they bring almost nothing to an actual organized group in Warzones.

 

And what would the repercussion to the PvE side be if you nerfed them? Oh but no one cares about PvE because this is the PvP subforum!

 

I'm not a PvE guy and I have no scoundrel (in fact I play a Sage) but reading this thread, it's amazing how much conjecture is thrown around and how there's almost no thought to the consequences of the nerf request.

 

Someone killed the crap out of you in PvP. It's GOING to happen occasionally. Suck it up and move on.

The fact of the matter is no one likes unwinable or nearly unwinable situations. I'm fine with paper - rock - scissors. I'm fine with some classes beating other classes and then those classes beating others. My experience with lvl 50 operatives/scoundrels is.. There is no real counter. They can kill anyone and they can kill anyone in a relatively short amount of time. There is no hard counter.

The fact of the matter is no one likes unwinable or nearly unwinable situations. I'm fine with paper - rock - scissors. I'm fine with some classes beating other classes and then those classes beating others. My experience with lvl 50 operatives/scoundrels is.. There is no real counter. They can kill anyone and they can kill anyone in a relatively short amount of time. There is no hard counter.

I don't know.. honestly I haven't had an issue with Scoundrel/Ops in the least. I can usually see through their Stealth (as well as Assassin/Shadows) pretty easily and when you DoT em up they get pulled out of their Vanish pretty quickly. Shadow/Assassins are way more annoying because their damage is still solid without Stealth. The solution for Scoundrels is Trinket, Bubble/Shield, DoT, and when they inevitably vanish and get pulled back out of Stealth... proceed to kill.

If those CD's aren't available, I just call for help on Mumble.

The fact of the matter is no one likes unwinable or nearly unwinable situations. I'm fine with paper - rock - scissors. I'm fine with some classes beating other classes and then those classes beating others. My experience with lvl 50 operatives/scoundrels is.. There is no real counter. They can kill anyone and they can kill anyone in a relatively short amount of time. There is no hard counter.

Funny, my friend says all the time that he'll open up on someone and their teammates immediately pull him away and mug him. There must be some unknown corollary here. Quick, someone give me a grant to investigate this matter in group pvp.

So you were CC'd from stealth and did not pop your break . . . and watched your friend die. Sigh . . . every class has a break, every class has some kind of cc. Every class has a couple of burst moves, most classes have specs with dots.

 

Break, and either dot him, or cc him. Then put some burst on him yourself if he tries to run away with the dot on he is screwed.

You cant cc break knockdowns. Is everyone's reading comprehension that bad?

But lets pretend for a moment you can use it. You pop out, turn and stun him, he cc breaks YOUR stun, vanishes, waits 5 seconds for your resolve bar to drop and does it all again. All you have to do is pop your cc break agai... oh wait.

You cant cc break knockdowns. Is everyone's reading comprehension that bad?

 

But lets pretend for a moment you can use it. You pop out, turn and stun him, he cc breaks YOUR stun, vanishes, waits 5 seconds for your resolve bar to drop and does it all again. All you have to do is pop your cc break agai... oh wait.

Should've put a DoT or Bleed on him instead of stunning him imo. It's the first thing I do against Stealth classes.

Burst classes are pretty strong, but not OP. Handing out huge nerfs is not how you fix this.

Some other things are just a little too weak in PvP, starting with heals. If an assassin/shadow/operative/scoundrel can land out repeated 3k hits in a string of GCD's, then why does my 2.5s cast heal only recover 1700 life, even at level 45 in full blues?

Why is healing weaker in PvP than damage? Shouldn't it -at least- be on par?

You cant cc break knockdowns. Is everyone's reading comprehension that bad?

 

But lets pretend for a moment you can use it. You pop out, turn and stun him, he cc breaks YOUR stun, vanishes, waits 5 seconds for your resolve bar to drop and does it all again. All you have to do is pop your cc break agai... oh wait.

well if only one person got the message... i guess I still have hope...

your response is exactly what I've been trying to say... I am fairly confident you CANNOT trinket break the opener knockdown. I am 100% certain you do get a full bar of resolve once it ends... however as I have tried to explain.. when you get hit for 6-8K on the opener and then hit for two more uncontested unavoidable strikes of 2-4k ... you kinda are dead...so that full white bar... really doens't mean a whole hell of a lot.

You cant cc break knockdowns. Is everyone's reading comprehension that bad?

 

But lets pretend for a moment you can use it. You pop out, turn and stun him, he cc breaks YOUR stun, vanishes, waits 5 seconds for your resolve bar to drop and does it all again. All you have to do is pop your cc break agai... oh wait.

First part you're wrong, and ironically as well. The ability removes all things that cause you to lose control of your character. That includes knockdowns. It also removes roots and snares. So either you have a terrible reaction time, or a 3k MS ping.

Second part is correct. However 2 minute cooldown burned to do that.

Should've put a DoT or Bleed on him instead of stunning him imo. It's the first thing I do against Stealth classes.

a good stealther does not care about your dots. with resilience.. i just force cloak and pop it.. removes all dots and solidifies my insta stealth. but yea.. keep dotting bad stealthers... this thread however is in no way directed at them.

Burst classes are pretty strong, but not OP. Handing out huge nerfs is not how you fix this.

 

Some other things are just a little too weak in PvP, starting with heals. If an assassin/shadow/operative/scoundrel can land out repeated 3k hits in a string of GCD's, then why does my 2.5s cast heal only recover 1700 life, even at level 45 in full blues?

 

Why is healing weaker in PvP than damage? Shouldn't it -at least- be on par?

When you engage in PvP, you get a 30% debuff to heals recieved. I think it was a design to prevent the strat of stacking Heal hybrid classes and just "outlasting" other comps.

First part you're wrong, and ironically as well. The ability removes all things that cause you to lose control of your character. That includes knockdowns. It also removes roots and snares. So either you have a terrible reaction time, or a 3k MS ping.

 

Second part is correct. However 2 minute cooldown burned to do that.

Knockdowns are independent of stuns in the case of hidden strike. Quit reading off of what the skill SHOULD do and instead focus on what it actually DOES. Its the animation of your character getting up which is what causes problems. You may clear the debuff, but the animation playing prevents you from acting.

So you both burned your 2 min cc breakers. For the next 1min and 40s, you are his to do with has he pleases.

Should've put a DoT or Bleed on him instead of stunning him imo. It's the first thing I do against Stealth classes.

Avoidance Training - his evasion just removed all dots, then he vanished. Now what?

No ability gives full resolve. Stuns give ~400.

Umm, I'm reasonably sure quite a few do. Sorcerer Whirlwind, for example, or Merc's Concussive Missile. Once you do it, you can't do jack to them for a while. Bar goes from zero to full instantly. They trinket it, and you're SOL. From what I hear, so does Jarring Strike.

a good stealther does not care about your dots. with resilience.. i just force cloak and pop it.. removes all dots and solidifies my insta stealth. but yea.. keep dotting bad stealthers... this thread however is in no way directed at them.

lol well by all means, lets balance the classes based on 1v1 situations from the top 10% of players in only the PvP aspect of the game. Be serious man.

Btw.. Op opens on me, I trinket out and DoT, they do their equivalent of Force Cloak and Vanish, I put up my Bubble, they open again and lose the majority of their burst on my bubble, I now DoT, CC, and kill.

PvP is Chess, not Checkers.