Recently I have seen the existence of what I believe to be some misconceptions that people seem to have about the Force, especially about the so-called "Gray Side" or as it is called in KotFE and KotET "growing beyond Light and Dark". It is my view that, within the Star Wars universe and the way the Force works, it's impossible to truly ever become something more than Light or Dark. Being able to follow a middle path between Light and Dark isn't something that can be achieved and those that do try such weaken themselves and their connection to the Force, Darth Gravid and his insanity being an example of this. It is why I believe Valkorion tried to teach the Outlander a supposed "more than Light and Dark" side, so that he would have an easier time breaking our will and taking control over our body. Because an individual that is aligned to either the Light Side or the Dark Side could be seen as someone devoted to its teachings, therefore having a stronger will than someone who is aligned to neither and therefore rests in a limbo of apathy. And we know what Kreia said about apathy...

It's why I want to invite everyone who is interested in this subject to watch a video that was made by a Youtuber about this particular subject in aftermath of a wonderful and elaborate dissection of Kreia's philosophy. He explains the lore surrounding how the Force works with the Light Side and the Dark Side perfectly and also masterfully points out why the Gray Jedi are extremely flawed, as well as why achieving "balance" by growing beyond Light and Dark is impossible within the Star Wars universe.

Here is the link to the video, it is a bit lengthy, but it is absolutely worth the time:

Darth Gravid

Sorry to fish this out of the post, but that can't *possibly* be the guy's name. (Er, well, I sure as eggs is eggs hope not.)

Darth Heavily-pregnant?

Does not compute.

Sorry to fish this out of the post, but that can't *possibly* be the guy's name. (Er, well, I sure as eggs is eggs hope not.)

 

Darth Heavily-pregnant?

 

Does not compute.

It is his name http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Gravid

He is mentioned by Plagueis in the Plagueis novel when he teaches Sidious about the Force.

It is his name http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Gravid

 

He is mentioned by Plagueis in the Plagueis novel when he teaches Sidious about the Force.

Oh dear. That is unfortunate. Whoever wrote that as his name needs to look more carefully in dictionaries before using words as Darth names.

But gravid really does mean (heavily) pregnant, although it's normally used for animals like horses and cows rather than people.

Oh dear. That is unfortunate. Whoever wrote that as his name needs to look more carefully in dictionaries before using words as Darth names.

 

But gravid really does mean (heavily) pregnant, although it's normally used for animals like horses and cows rather than people.

Well, I bet there are more of such examples in all the Star Wars material out there I personally always associated it with the word "gravis", which means "severe" in Latin. In fact, until today I hadn't known that "gravid" means heavily pregnant xD

He's (Valkorian) trying to *Weaken the Players *Resolve. A Light or Dark sided Character would fight towards, make decisions in line with their beliefs (Sith or Jedi), *Not, the decisions Valkorian wants you to make so he's trying to Wean you away from your beliefs. Add a couple "Ego Building Compliments" *Above "Light or Dark" and a Less Firm individual may change.

Also with this (In the Movie Sense) an Individual that had no commitments, no direction , no directives to achieve would be easy to change their course. People aligned to the Light side will fight for those ideals, People aligned to the Dark side will fight for Sith Ideals but the Non Commited have little direction, no set destination and results are undefined; < Much "Easier" to sway, change or stop altogether. The Grey, Above or Undecided (Again in the Movie Sense) have doubts to their original ideals, this is the first step in corrupting ones mind to break with their commitments....and side.

"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything"... "Abraham Lincoln"

Gotta disagree with this. It's not a 'misconception,' it's how each player chooses to interpret it.

Characters like Mara Jade, Qui-Gonn, Mace Windu, Jolee Bindo and others who play fast and loose with the gray label have been in official media. Ahsoka Tano carries white lightsabers and is not aligned with either the Jedi or the Sith. In the game there are numerous orders - the Knights of Zakuul, the Order of Shasa, the Voss Mystics, the Revanites - who do not limit themselves to using one side of the Force or the other. Their liberal use of both sides is again canon.

If a player or RPer chooses to take a black and white view of things, that's certainly valid, but it doesn't mean that those who don't are misunderstanding anything. I know there are those who are very dogmatic about this and stubbornly feel you have to pick a side, and if that is how they choose to play and interpret things, great, but I do not agree and that is never how I will play my Force users.

Characters like Mara Jade, Qui-Gonn, Mace Windu, Jolee Bindo and others who play fast and loose with the gray label have been in official media. Ahsoka Tano carries white lightsabers and is not aligned with either the Jedi or the Sith. In the game there are numerous orders - the Knights of Zakuul, the Order of Shasa, the Voss Mystics, the Revanites - who do not limit themselves to using one side of the Force or the other. Their liberal use of both sides is again canon.

I assume you did watch the vid? a lot of what I am about to say comes from there so it would help if you knew what I am generally talking about! (the vid is really worth it, trust me!)

None of those organisations, people or orders are truly detached from either side of the Force. The Order of Shasa for example has members leaning both to the Light as well as to the Dark, their key ideals being peace and defense: "Shasa and the other Sith-trained Selkath developed a doctrine of peace and defense, creating an organization initially known only as the Order" (Quoted from Wookiepedia). That exhibits clear Light Side alignment or at least leaning towards the Light Side.

On the Knights of Zakuul the Wookiepedia page says the following:

"The Knights of Zakuul served to protect the Emperor of the Eternal Empire and enforce justice throughout the Empire. Unlike the Jedi or Sith, the Knights of Zakuul neither rejected nor rigidly adhered to either the light side or the dark side of the Force, emphasising the importance of a Knight exploring their personal connection to the Force. Eschewing the strict codes of the Jedi and Sith, no area of the Force was deemed too weak for a Knight to pursue further knowledge in, and no areas of the force were off-limits for Knights to study in the pursuit of power. However, whilst the pursuit of umlimited power drew natural comparisons between the Knights of Zakuul and the Sith, Knights were encouraged share their findings with the rest of the order, rather than hoarding information for themselves."

Basically a Knight of Zakuul could study the Dark Side and remain committed to it but the same going for a Knight wanting to study the Light Side. So the organisation itself isn't on any "neutral" side of the Force, they merely do not forbid their members from adhering to one side of the Force or the other. Their only code is to serve and protect Zakuul's royal family and the Immortal Emperor. Whether they do it as Light Siders or Dark Siders is unimportant.

On the Voss the following is said:

"The Voss Mystics were considered to be gray by the Jedi and the Sith for their non-standard perspective on the nature of the Force, as they belonged to neither order nor fully embraced either the light or dark sides of the Force."

I will admit, the Voss seem to come closest to a "Gray Side" of the Force, yet because of this very fact their connection to the Force is weak. All we see them do is getting visions, but they do not exhibit any greater usage of the Force and behave rather apathetically towards the Jedi and Sith and the galaxy, which aligns with the flaws of the Gray Jedi as explained by the video. The Voss seclude themselves and want nothing to do with the greater galaxy, behaving exactly like the other Gray Jedi who exiled themselves and remained apathetic, like Jolee Bindo or Luke Skywalker in the Last Jedi.

As for Jolee Bindo, he is one of the examples used in the video to point out the major flaws of the Gray Jedi. He exiles himself and detaches himself from the galaxy, because he tries to remain on a "Gray Side" he becomes apathetic, wallowing in self-pity on Kashyyyk. The moment he is spurred on by Revan to come into action he starts leaning more towards the Light Side again, therefore never reaching a true middle path.

Mace Windu and Qui-Gon Jinn do not fit into the typical role of the Jedi Knight, but within the Force they were still aligned with the Light Side, they didn't follow a neutral gray path. Ashoka Tano fits the latter description as well, I believe, because she still expresses traits of selflessness in her usage of the Force, which puts her on the Light Side of the spectrum of Force alignment.

The Youtuber in question also made another interesting video, in which he says the following: many people believe the Light Side of the Force to be an aspect of it, yet in fact, the Light Side is actually the ground state of the Force, the state in which it's supposed to be. Achieving "Balance Within the Force" means the complete eradication of all the Dark Side users by letting the Light triumph. It's why the wars in Star Wars are cyclical, every few decades darkness rises and the Force lets the Light Side rise to meet it and destroy it. That is also one of the main reasons why I believe and the Youtuber in question with me that a "gray side" cannot exist within the Star Wars universe because the existence of the Force itself prohibits that because its ground state is the Light Side. If you're interested in the video in which it is explained, here is the link:

To conclude, naturally, the Force and its nature have many interpretations. However, I do think George Lucas had a few base intents that can be discerned by examining the lore around the Force in the Star Wars universe the way the Youtuber in question has elaborated. Not saying his view is infallible, but to me it seems like the most logical explanation as to what the nature of the Force is

Jolee, Mace and Qui-Gon were all Light Side characters, They may not be so "Staunch" or "Rigid" casually, but when it matters they're LS.

Jolee was just frustrated and wanted to get away from everything (I can personally understand that myself) and at first Didn't want to care but after being around and listening to Revan did do the right thing and join the cause (for the Light side).

Mace Windu was doing the Light/Jedi thing all along just with less Politeness and more Judgemental but everything he did was to Stop the dark side.

Qui-Gon was doing Exactly the right thing (LS) all along. The Jedi Council was absolutely too rigid to accomplish anything especially when it concerned the Prophecy and what "Is supposed to happen" (Too Great to believe).

A True "Grey/ Neutral" character would have a half/ half chance of going either way for even the most Dire situations (Ex. Planetary scale massacres). The white haired Jedi (?) Guss was learning (??) from on Nar Shaddaa would be the only True grey character; he did right or did wrong with not even a moments Difference.

Kreia was doing the same thing Valkorian did, trying to Corrupt, Confuse, Alter and Convert the character *Away from what they believed into something else (Not good at all). Seeding Doubt, Ego Stroking in specific moments and Deception intended to change ones principles and therefore their direction......Propaganda.

The white haired Jedi (?) Guss was learning (??) from on Nar Shaddaa would be the only True grey character;

I suspect the dude wasn't a Jedi at all, but "Agent Izax", the spy sent by Zakuul to the Core Words - in the Dragon's Maw chapter you can hear some Knights talking about him. Also I think the guy couldn't care less about the Force or maybe he didn't wanted to use it ( new Force power, like seeing Sana-Rae through her vision? )

Jolee, Mace and Qui-Gon were all Light Side characters, They may not be so "Staunch" or "Rigid" casually, but when it matters they're LS.

 

Jolee was just frustrated and wanted to get away from everything (I can personally understand that myself) and at first Didn't want to care but after being around and listening to Revan did do the right thing and join the cause (for the Light side).

 

Mace Windu was doing the Light/Jedi thing all along just with less Politeness and more Judgemental but everything he did was to Stop the dark side.

 

Mace Windu's LightSabre color was not intended to be anything important. It was because Samuel L Jackson threw such a hissy fit about wanting to stand out and not being "Lost in the Crowd" while the watchers were Focusing on the Hero's (Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme) Hence his LightSabre gets the *Different color and definitely Not what Lucas Intended.

 

Qui-Gon was doing Exactly the right thing (LS) all along. The Jedi Council was absolutely too rigid to accomplish anything especially when it concerned the Prophecy and what "Is supposed to happen" (Too Great to believe).

 

A True "Grey/ Neutral" character would have a half/ half chance of going either way for even the most Dire situations (Ex. Planetary scale massacres). The white haired Jedi (?) Guss was learning (??) from on Nar Shaddaa would be the only True grey character; he did right or did wrong with not even a moments Difference.

 

Kreia was doing the same thing Valkorian did, trying to Corrupt, Confuse, Alter and Convert the character *Away from what they believed into something else (Not good at all). Seeding Doubt, Ego Stroking in specific moments and Deception intended to change ones principles and therefore their direction......Propaganda.

Agreed, Valkorion is like Kreia, namely an unreliable narrator. Whatever he tells us about the Force we cannot trust, because his only goal is to take control over our body. To add to that, in the codex entries ingame Valkorion is described as a Sith entity, which says enough about his own alignment about the Force. He doesn't practice a wider use of the Force, he's deeply aligned and in tune with the Dark Side from beginning to start. His yellow eyes are the best visual proof aside from the mastodontic pile of evidence we get in the story.

But that's what the video points out, that because of Guss' teacher seemingly following a neutral path he becomes detached and apathetic. He sits on Nar Shaddaa doing nothing, he ran away from the galaxy and like all the other gray jedi Force Users sits in self-imposed exile doing nothing. It's the major flaw of the gray jedi and a neutral side of the Force, it makes one apathetic. And apathy is death, worse than death.

Recently I have seen the existence of what I believe to be some misconceptions that people seem to have about the Force, especially about the so-called "Gray Side" or as it is called in KotFE and KotET "growing beyond Light and Dark". It is my view that, within the Star Wars universe and the way the Force works, it's impossible to truly ever become something more than Light or Dark. Being able to follow a middle path between Light and Dark isn't something that can be achieved and those that do try such weaken themselves and their connection to the Force, Darth Gravid and his insanity being an example of this. It is why I believe Valkorion tried to teach the Outlander a supposed "more than Light and Dark" side, so that he would have an easier time breaking our will and taking control over our body. Because an individual that is aligned to either the Light Side or the Dark Side could be seen as someone devoted to its teachings, therefore having a stronger will than someone who is aligned to neither and therefore rests in a limbo of apathy. And we know what Kreia said about apathy...

 

It's why I want to invite everyone who is interested in this subject to watch a video that was made by a Youtuber about this particular subject in aftermath of a wonderful and elaborate dissection of Kreia's philosophy. He explains the lore surrounding how the Force works with the Light Side and the Dark Side perfectly and also masterfully points out why the Gray Jedi are extremely flawed, as well as why achieving "balance" by growing beyond Light and Dark is impossible within the Star Wars universe.

 

Here is the link to the video, it is a bit lengthy, but it is absolutely worth the time:

Any force user who does not practice the Jedi or Sith light/ darkbeliefs are Grey, that is where that term comes from. That also includes former Sith and Jedi who leave the orders they are from. This guys video is good but is wrong in some parts. Revan would be considerd a grey after he learned both sides of the force and he was definitely more powerful than any Sith or Jedi. The Voss for instance are considered Grey because they do not practice the Jedi or Sith beliefs about the force. I am so glad I grew up in the 80's and 90's you kids have no real concepts of the true Star Wars lore. All the books we read back then were true to George Lucas Vision of the force. This videos concept of Grey Jedi is not correct. Jedi and Sith can leave the order like Ashoka did. She would have been considered grey By the Jedi order and she was not a coward. She lost her faith in the Jedi order after no one would defend her against those murder charges. That is not cowardice, or apathy like the guy in the video says you have to be to go grey. I disagree with a his assumption that Jolee Bindo was a coward. He could not bring himself to kill his wife for going to the Darkside. That is love, he loved her and couldnt kill her. That is not being a coward. Also is it not in the code of a Jedi to allow his enemy to live even when he can kill them? So a few mistakes and wrong assumptions he has made. I would not recommend this video to anyone wanting to learn about Grey's.

There is quite a bit here. I am not sure exactly where to begin. I suppose here is a good point.

Agreed, Valkorion is like Kreia, namely an unreliable narrator.

It is funny that you dismiss Kreia as unreliable when the very video you link to to support your argument is an addendum to another video entitled, "The Philosophy of Kreia: A Critical Examination of Star Wars." Much of the video author's argument stems from Kreia's philosophy. They even open both videos with Kreia monologues.

Yours is an interpretation, certainly, that is no more valid or correct than any one else's. In the strict confines of the post-purge canon you would be correct that there are no Gray Jedi. This has been stated (unfortunately, the tweet was removed). But we do not exist within those strict confines. This game, and its two predecessors, all exist outside of that stricture.

Looking first at the original source material: George Lucas's own musings. The video author that you are relying upon to support your argument places great emphasis on Lucas's own intent in the works that he created. George Lucas himself referred to Qui Gon Jinn as a Gray Jedi during the making of TPM because Qui Gon did not follow the politics of the council but strictly followed the Force. This brings me to a point about "Gray Jedi."

What is a Gray Jedi? In effect, there are two interpretations of what a Gray Jedi is. The first would be those like Qui Gon Jinn, Ahsoka Tano, Jolee Bindo, etc. Those who do not follow the dark side of the Force, but do not strictly adhere to the Jedi Order. Absolutists would call them Dark Jedi since they do not tow the Order's line. Then there are those who do not adhere to either Jedi or Sith teachings. Those who see the Force as a greater whole and not within the simplistic duality of light and dark. The Voss were offered up as an example. Within the game they are referred to as gray but Master Satele expresses concern that since they do not follow the Jedi ways they could fall to the dark side. She even expresses her concern that the Voss Mystics control Voss society, but does not see the contradiction in expecting that the Republic would consult the Jedi Order prior to developing various weapon systems (the entire first act of the Jedi Knight story). She takes the simplistic view of Jedi = light/right and everything else is dark/wrong. This is a fault of anyone who takes an absolutist view. My way must be the right way and everyone else must be wrong. It is this concept that Gray Jedi such as Qui Gon bucked. It is important to understand that the Jedi Order is an organization. Jedi are members of that order. In many ways the Jedi are emblematic of monotheism. Additionally though, the word Jedi, in a neutral sense, is often used to describe anyone who can use the Force, but that would be incorrect when speaking about such groups as the Baran Do, which existed thousands of years prior to the Kel Dor joining the Republic, the Aing-Tii monks, who view the Force as a rainbow, the Dagoyan Order of Bardotta (which are canon), who avoided the light/dark aspects of the Force and who even impressed Master Yoda, the Whills, and even the Nightsisters of Dathomir. None of these groups followed the Jedi Order's teachings. It would be incorrect to refer to any of them as Gray Jedi, Dark Jedi, or any form of Jedi. It would be equally incorrect to refer to them as Sith. But they are all Force users. Non-Jedi Force users who follow a philosophy that does not confine itself to a light/dark dichotomy.

Some misconceptions have been expressed in this thread. Jolee Bindo did not shift to the light once he joined Reven. Jolee's alignment did not change at all in KotOR. He also was not wallowing in self-pity on Kashyyyk or apathetic. Perhaps you need to replay KotOR and pay closer attention to the conversations with Jolee. He was doing as the Force willed him. The Voss are not weak in the Force. Their ability to see the future, the visions of the Mystics, and their healers surpass the abilities of both Jedi and Sith. There is also a mission on Voss that has you rescue a number of Voss from the Sith and send them for training with the Jedi. It was expressed that a Gray/neutral character could go either way when it came to things such as a massacre. That is not correct. Perhaps this stems from my background in Dungeons and Dragons, but no a neutral character would not go either way in such situations. That would be a chaotic character. In D&D alignment is expressed in a spectrum along two axes: Lawful/Chaotic and Good/Evil, which creates a three by three grid ranging from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil (Neutral makes up the interstitial phase). Qui Gon could be described as Chaotic Good. He does not strictly follow the rules but he seeks to maximize good while minimizing bad. Very utilitarian. A lawful character can do evil things, even if they think themselves good, when they take a stance of strict adherence to the law and abandon interpretation. We see this among some of the hard liners of the Jedi. Some of the actions of the Jedi within the prequels can be viewed, if not necessarily as evil, as not maximizing the greater good.

D&D employs a much more nuanced interpretation of an individuals motives than the simplistic light/dark dichotomy many take with the Force. One could say that the light/dark Force dichotomy is only half of the alignment equation found in D&D. This is the brunt of my issues with the video author's assertions. They frequently rely upon the philosophies of Nietzsche in their arguments. Nietzsche's ideas are frequently presented, misrepresented, as an absolutist, black/white view of the world. Far from it. A simplistic read of Nietzsche will come to the same conclusion as the video's author. That everything is black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, Jedi and Sith. That one must give themselves over to either passion or logic, and only by flipping sides can be truly understand the Jedi and Sith. I tend to not agree with Nietzsche, but this it not a nuanced understanding of Nietzsche. Under the guidance of Nietzsche it is far too easy to fall into this black/white, right/wrong, good/evil, Jedi/Sith mentality. A mentality that, all too frequently, plagues the Jedi Order.

Regarding Darth Gravid. Have you ever heard of plot convenience? From the very Star Wars Wiki article you linked to:

Darth Gravid was introduced in the 2012 novel Darth Plagueis, written by James Luceno, who created Gravid to provide an explanation as to why the titular character, Darth Plagueis, did not have access to some of the old Sith teachings and Force techniques.

Oh dear. That is unfortunate. Whoever wrote that as his name needs to look more carefully in dictionaries before using words as Darth names.

 

But gravid really does mean (heavily) pregnant, although it's normally used for animals like horses and cows rather than people.

Gravid also means full of meaning or a specified quality. Such as: ‘the scene is gravid with unease’.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/gravid

Alright, I was actually planning to go ingame but here we go:

It is funny that you dismiss Kreia as unreliable when the very video you link to to support your argument is an addendum to another video entitled, "The Philosophy of Kreia: A Critical Examination of Star Wars." Much of the video author's argument stems from Kreia's philosophy. They even open both videos with Kreia monologues.

Not dismissing Kreia, just stating a fact about her character. She's, in fact, my absolutely favourite character in the entire Star Wars franchise. Yet while she may be an unreliable character, we still can objectively deduce some facts about her philosophy. Yet while the video in question may start with one of Kreia's masterful quotes, the video itself uses sources beyond her to convey its points. The video uses a myriad of sources to explain why the Gray Jedi are flawed.

Yours is an interpretation, certainly, that is no more valid or correct than any one else's. In the strict confines of the post-purge canon you would be correct that there are no Gray Jedi. This has been stated (unfortunately, the tweet was removed). But we do not exist within those strict confines. This game, and its two predecessors, all exist outside of that stricture.

I do agree, I cannot force my own perspective onto anyone else. However, I can try to convince others why I believe the perspective I see as the truth to be correct which is what I am trying to do in this thread and with shining a little bit of limelight onto the video I linked. Whether I or the video will succeed in convincing others is another matter entirely, but at least I can try, no?

What is a Gray Jedi? In effect, there are two interpretations of what a Gray Jedi is. The first would be those like Qui Gon Jinn, Ahsoka Tano, Jolee Bindo, etc. Those who do not follow the dark side of the Force, but do not strictly adhere to the Jedi Order. Absolutists would call them Dark Jedi since they do not tow the Order's line. Then there are those who do not adhere to either Jedi or Sith teachings. Those who see the Force as a greater whole and not within the simplistic duality of light and dark. The Voss were offered up as an example. Within the game they are referred to as gray but Master Satele expresses concern that since they do not follow the Jedi ways they could fall to the dark side. She even expresses her concern that the Voss Mystics control Voss society, but does not see the contradiction in expecting that the Republic would consult the Jedi Order prior to developing various weapon systems (the entire first act of the Jedi Knight story). She takes the simplistic view of Jedi = light/right and everything else is dark/wrong. This is a fault of anyone who takes an absolutist view. My way must be the right way and everyone else must be wrong. It is this concept that Gray Jedi such as Qui Gon bucked. It is important to understand that the Jedi Order is an organization. Jedi are members of that order. In many ways the Jedi are emblematic of monotheism. Additionally though, the word Jedi, in a neutral sense, is often used to describe anyone who can use the Force, but that would be incorrect when speaking about such groups as the Baran Do, which existed thousands of years prior to the Kel Dor joining the Republic, the Aing-Tii monks, who view the Force as a rainbow, the Dagoyan Order of Bardotta (which are canon), who avoided the light/dark aspects of the Force and who even impressed Master Yoda, the Whills, and even the Nightsisters of Dathomir. None of these groups followed the Jedi Order's teachings. It would be incorrect to refer to any of them as Gray Jedi, Dark Jedi, or any form of Jedi. It would be equally incorrect to refer to them as Sith. But they are all Force users. Non-Jedi Force users who follow a philosophy that does not confine itself to a light/dark dichotomy.

One thing I need to note here, I am not saying that the Jedi stand synonymously with the Light Side nor do the Sith stand as such for the Dark Side. The video actually gives a very accurate description in my opinion about users of both the Light Side and the Dark Side. Anyone who uses the Force selflessly and does so without drawing on emotions uses the Light Side of the Force, while anyone who draws upon the Force for selfish purposes while drawing heavily upon emotions instead uses the Dark Side. Looking from that perspective all the organisations you mentioned can be placed in either one of those descriptions. Those who use the Force selflessly and without drawing on emotions: Qui Gon Jinn, Ahsoka Tano, Jolee Bindo, the Jedi Order, the Voss (they use their visions for the good of the Voss and therefore not for personal gain and they don't draw on emotions, or at least, not visibly), the Baran Do. Those who use the Force selfishly while drawing upon powerful emotions: the Sith, the Nightsisters of Dathomir and the Dark Jedi.

Even those who supposedly are defined as Gray Jedi therefore still fall on either side of the Force if you'd place them on the typical Light/Dark alignment spectrum. Even Qui-Gon Jinn and Ashoka would lean towards the Light albeit being closer to the middle, but none of those characters would stand in the exact middle. However, the threat with standing so close to the middle is the threat of becoming apathetic. Those Gray Jedi see the flaws of both the Jedi and the Sith, but when push comes to shove they prefer to hide than to act and change anything. That is a form of apathy.

Some misconceptions have been expressed in this thread. Jolee Bindo did not shift to the light once he joined Reven. Jolee's alignment did not change at all in KotOR. He also was not wallowing in self-pity on Kashyyyk or apathetic. Perhaps you need to replay KotOR and pay closer attention to the conversations with Jolee. He was doing as the Force willed him. The Voss are not weak in the Force. Their ability to see the future, the visions of the Mystics, and their healers surpass the abilities of both Jedi and Sith. There is also a mission on Voss that has you rescue a number of Voss from the Sith and send them for training with the Jedi. It was expressed that a Gray/neutral character could go either way when it came to things such as a massacre. That is not correct. Perhaps this stems from my background in Dungeons and Dragons, but no a neutral character would not go either way in such situations. That would be a chaotic character. In D&D alignment is expressed in a spectrum along two axes: Lawful/Chaotic and Good/Evil, which creates a three by three grid ranging from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil (Neutral makes up the interstitial phase). Qui Gon could be described as Chaotic Good. He does not strictly follow the rules but he seeks to maximize good while minimizing bad. Very utilitarian. A lawful character can do evil things, even if they think themselves good, when they take a stance of strict adherence to the law and abandon interpretation. We see this among some of the hard liners of the Jedi. Some of the actions of the Jedi within the prequels can be viewed, if not necessarily as evil, as not maximizing the greater good.

It has indeed been some while since I last played KOTOR 1 so my own recollection of Jolee Bindo may be somewhat hazy, hence why I rely on what was said in the video. I never said that Jolee Bindo fully switches towards the Light Side, however, he was pushed a little bit further towards the Light on the spectrum of Light and Dark alignment, enough to finally spur him into action. Jolee Bindo claims to see the faults of the Jedi but he didn't do anything to change those faults. What did he do instead? He hid on Kashyyyk hiding behind "it's the will of the Force". That very fact makes him apathetic, because instead of acting on his newfound wisdom about the faults of the Jedi he opts to pack his bags and detach himself from the galaxy. Exactly the same happens to Luke Skywalker in the Last Jedi, he sees the faults of the Jedi and what does he do? He hides in apathy instead of trying to change something.

The Voss may indeed surpass the Jedi and the Sith in their ability to receive Force Visions, but that makes them strong in only 1 single aspect while the Jedi and Sith are both more well-rounded Force Users because they rely on one side or the other. The Voss are comparable to the Miraluka, who have great skill with Force Sight and surpass the Jedi and Sith in that regard but the Luka Sene for example (the religious body of the Miraluka) don't excell in anything else beyond Force Sight. Now, the Luka Sene is Light Side-based so may not be a perfect comparison, but the point still stands. The Voss excell in 1 Force Power, but by relying on neither the Light Side or Dark Side limit themselves to becoming as well rounded as the Jedi and Sith are in their powers in the Force.

D&D employs a much more nuanced interpretation of an individuals motives than the simplistic light/dark dichotomy many take with the Force. One could say that the light/dark Force dichotomy is only half of the alignment equation found in D&D. This is the brunt of my issues with the video author's assertions. They frequently rely upon the philosophies of Nietzsche in their arguments. Nietzsche's ideas are frequently presented, misrepresented, as an absolutist, black/white view of the world. Far from it. A simplistic read of Nietzsche will come to the same conclusion as the video's author. That everything is black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, Jedi and Sith. That one must give themselves over to either passion or logic, and only by flipping sides can be truly understand the Jedi and Sith. I tend to not agree with Nietzsche, but this it not a nuanced understanding of Nietzsche. Under the guidance of Nietzsche it is far too easy to fall into this black/white, right/wrong, good/evil, Jedi/Sith mentality. A mentality that, all too frequently, plagues the Jedi Order.

I personally do not agree with the philosophy of Nietzsche either, however, his philosophy does fit the Star Wars universe quite well. Because that's the tragedy of the franchise; the Star Wars universe is locked into an endless conflict between the Light Side and the Dark Side, forcing everyone to one side or the other because of its deterministic nature. Kreia clearly states in KOTOR 2 that the Force has a destiny for everyone and everything in the Star Wars universe, therefore we could potentially conclude there is no free will in the Star Wars universe. It's the entire reason why she wanted to kill the Force, because she came to see that as one of the sole options left to end the cyclical rise of the Dark Side and its subsequent destruction by the rise of the Light Side, a conflict during which each time millions would suffer and die. Because the ground state of the Force is the Light Side, George Lucas has been very clear as to his intent there. He literally stated in an interview that in order to achieve "balance in the Force" all the practitioners of the Dark Side have to be destroyed. The Force in balance therefore is not a middle path, but the complete removal and destruction of all the practitioners of the Dark Side. Therefore the view that the Youtube video offers on Nietzsche's philosophy fits the Star Wars universe excellently, because at its core the nature of the Force is that simplistic, namely, Light and Dark, with the former always triumphing over the Dark.

Why does a Gray Jedi become apathetic? Because in that entire conflict they have no other choice but to become apathetic, as they see the flaws of the Light Side and the flaws of the Dark Side, but because of the nature of the Force they're absolutely unable to do anything about it, especially because even though they might profess a neutral alignment in the Force, they'll still lean towards either the Light or the Dark on the alignment spectrum. As the video stated in the end, the Star Wars universe is a doomed galaxy, all because of the existence of the Force that consists of a Light Side and a Dark Side. Because of the compulsory destruction of the Dark Side by a triumph of the Light, a true "gray side" does not exist as there simply isn't room for that within the Force. Because you either use the Force selflessly and without emotions (Light Side) or selfishly while drawing upon emotions (Dark Side). There is no inbetween.

Regarding Darth Gravid. Have you ever heard of plot convenience? From the very Star Wars Wiki article you linked to:

Sure, true enough, but does plot convenience deminish the fact that it got a place within the Star Wars lore? Absolutely not. Star Wars is full of plot conveniences, but every bit of it still becomes a valid part of the lore and setting.

Unfortunately the fan base will continue to promote their head canon above official sources from the de facto and de jure Gods of this IP no matter how many times their provably wrong opinions are corrected. I gave up ever since 2016 or so. It honestly doesn't help that Bioware Austin's writers seem to think that since Disney forked the timeline into their nu-canon and "Legends" that they can write whatever they want so long as they don't push it into self-parody territory and give Sith unicorn mounts.

I agree, I been around star Wars since the 80's so i dont fall for the YouTubers that put their personal ideas of what some thing in the Star Wars universe should be.. The video the OP posted is one of those he is so far left of what a Grey jedi is. Get this he says grey jedi are when they become humane, and have attachments to loved one or romances. Then they become Grey LOL I almost spit my coke out at that. Then he says that when they are inactive hermits its because they have apathy ROFL, which is far from true for any Jedi that is.. If a jedi goes grey it is because he is disillusioned with the order like Ahsoka is or the order exiled them like the Exile from kotor2.

Also Jedi who do not follow the Jedi Code strictly can be Grey Like Qui-gon was. And anyone not Jedi or Sith that use the force can be listed as Grey.

I agree, I been around star Wars since the 80's so i dont fall for the YouTubers that put their personal ideas of what some thing in the Star Wars universe should be.. The video the OP posted is one of those he is so far left of what a Grey jedi is. Get this he says grey jedi are when they become humane, and have attachments to loved one or romances. Then they become Grey LOL I almost spit my coke out at that. Then he says that when they are inactive hermits its because they have apathy ROFL. If a jedi goes grey it is because he is disillusioned with the order like Ahsoka is or the order exiled them like the Exile from kotor2.

I believe the person you're quoting is actually referring to behaviour from Star Wars fans like yours...

There is no need to go high and mighty because you claim to have been a Star Wars fans since the 80s. There are fans out there who may not have been fans of the franchise since the 80s, 90s or whatever, but they know a lot more about the universe than you do. Being fan of the franchise for X amount of years is an empty claim, because what matters is how much of the Star Wars content you have taken in and gone through.

The person in the video makes very valid points and observations about the flaws of the gray jedi, providing evidence for every claim he makes. Where is your evidence? Where is your proof to back up your claims?

This guys video is good but is wrong in some parts.

Well, you sure do change attitudes swiftly from this to absolutely unnecessary ridicule.

I believe the person you're quoting is actually referring to behaviour from Star Wars fans like yours...

 

There is no need to go high and mighty because you claim to have been a Star Wars fans since the 80s. There are fans out there who may not have been fans of the franchise since the 80s, 90s or whatever, but they know a lot more about the universe than you do. Being fan of the franchise for X amount of years is an empty claim, because what matters is how much of the Star Wars content you have taken in and gone through.

 

The person in the video makes very valid points and observations about the flaws of the gray jedi, providing evidence for every claim he makes. Where is your evidence? Where is your proof to back up your claims?

 

 

 

Well, you sure do change attitudes swiftly from this to absolutely unnecessary ridicule.

Oh his video was well done the content was crap but the vid looked good and was well put together. Also your definitely not one of those that know more than me, I dont listen to some YouTubers half baked ideas. I promise you I am very well versed in Star Wars Lore. I dont know everything but I can tell you I know all the basics and Grey Jedi is as basic as you can get lol. IN SWG when we Rped we had to get the lore correct or you would be called out for it.

i played that game off and on from beginning to end. Not like this game where you have so many make up stuff that is not in the Star wars lore for rp.

Oh his video was well done the content was crap but the vid looked good and was well put together. Also your definitely not one of those that know more than me I dont listen to some YouTubers half baked ideas. I promise you I am very versed in Star Wars Lore. I dont know everything but I can tell you I know all the basics and Grey Jedi is as basic as you can get lol.

Again, your attitude is really unnecessary and really, really makes me doubt your claim you're a fan since 80s. No offense but I doubt you're older than me and I am in my early 20s.

Well, look at that we have something in common! I too have gone through tons and tons of Star Wars material. From the Dark Nest trilogy, to the Plagueis novel, from the Darth Bane books to the Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology... I've read A LOT and frequently reread it. My current collection is quite sizeable; sourcebooks, encyclopedias (I have the SWTOR Collector's edition items and books in case you'd like to know), guidebooks... I've got it so I do dare say my knowledge of the Star Wars lore is at least on the same level of yours, whether it's higher would have to be tested in a trivia quiz or something!

So, if you do know the basics as you say, I invite you to respond onto what I said in the previous post: what evidence do you have to prove your claims?

Again, your attitude is really unnecessary and really, really makes me doubt your claim you're a fan since 80s. No offense but I doubt you're older than me and I am in my early 20s.

 

Well, look at that we have something in common! I too have gone through tons and tons of Star Wars material. From the Dark Nest trilogy, to the Plagueis novel, from the Darth Bane books to the Thrawn Trilogy and Hand of Thrawn Duology... I've read A LOT and frequently reread it. My current collection is quite sizeable; sourcebooks, encyclopedias (I have the SWTOR Collector's edition items and books in case you'd like to know), guidebooks... I've got it so I do dare say my knowledge of the Star Wars lore is at least on the same level of yours.

 

So, if you do know the basics as you say, I invite you to respond onto what I said in the previous post: what evidence do you have to prove your claims?

StarWars WIKI, Wookiepedia, the EU novels. George Lucas himself said Qui-gon was a gray jedi. Shall I go on and on? When I dont know the answer to some thing, which is rare. I go to wookiepedia usually to find out or star wars wiki. Never go to just YouTube because you dont know, if they know, what they say they know. You dont know as much as most on here. You cant even get the Grey Jedi right and you cant even understand what it is that Jedi or Sith can be Heretics. Those are simple ideas not complex at all. I am not suprised you are in your 20's, its pretty evident.

StarWars WIKI, Wookiepedia, the EU novels. George Lucas himself said Qui-gon was a gray jedi. Shall I go on and on?

Okay great, good job, now elaborate it in context because that is what I asked. How does that bit of information disprove my previous elaborations as well as the video's elaboration. Because if you take KOTOR 2's description of a gray jedi which is, I quote from Wookieepedia,

"Gray Jedi are those who, though having completed the teachings of the Jedi, operate independently and outside of the Jedi Council. They are typically seen as misguided, though they have not necessarily succumbed to the dark side."

That description fits Qui-Gon Jinn perfectly, but nowhere does it say in that description that Gray Jedi use a "gray side" of the Force. I'd argue Qui-Gon Jinn used the Force selflessly and without emotions, which hey, that's the Light Side! So while he may have not adhered strictly to the Jedi Code, he did use the Light Side!

When I dont know the answer to some thing, which is rare. I go to wookiepedia usually to find out or star wars wiki. Never go to just YouTube because you dont know, if they know, what they say they know.

Well look at that we have even more in common! because you know, I am also capable of thinking critically and go verify claims that I hear.

Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code. However, those who were considered to be true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition. One example was Jolee Bindo, a former Jedi Padawan and a Gray Jedi that served the Old Republic.

That is straight from wookiepedia, which you could have looked up yourself.

I am touched by your concern for my ability to comprehend things, but really, it's not necessary.

 

Oh, anyone who uses the Force that is not Jedi or Sith you say? Well, that differs a lot from the explanation that Wookieepedia gives (I thought you said you read it!), because someone who uses the Force is called a Force User. Gray Jedi has a very specific explanation and I don't think the term "Grey Force User" is an official term that exists in lore (yet, someone might come up with it eventually!)

seriously its like 5 pages you need to go there and read it im not posting the whole thing. It also says those that use the force that are not jedi or sith. I never said that dont put words in my mouth about them not being force users why do you keep saying things that i dont say? Are you trying to make me look bad? because it does not.

Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council and operated outside the strictures of the Jedi Code. However, those who were considered to be true Gray Jedi met both qualifications and did not belong to any particular Force tradition. One example was Jolee Bindo, a former Jedi Padawan and a Gray Jedi that served the Old Republic.

 

That is straight from wookiepedia, which you could have looked up yourself.

You have read it after all, yaay!

Yes, but you were the one making a claim I asked you to provide evidence to, as that's how discussions work. One side makes a claim and provides arguments with factual evidence, then the other counters their arguments with factual evidence of their own.