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5.6 - Precision Nerf - Feedback

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
5.6 - Precision Nerf - Feedback

I_LUV_CHICKN's Avatar


I_LUV_CHICKN
10.28.2017 , 11:45 PM | #1
Come 5.6, combat/carnage sents & mara's will face a determinental nerf to their class ability Precision/Ferocity that will limit "only" certain abilities affected by precision/ferocity, our most vital asset for achieving damage, by putting 10 sec stacks on it, and negating other abilities from being used within precisions/ferocity's window of damage however we choose. This is another change that will limit creativity in how a class can be played.

The main reasoning behind this is that people who suffer from server lag versus others with better connection are at a constant disadvantage and thus creates a gap between those who can hit the "clip" versus those who cannot. this is flawed logic. I run this game at 10-15 FPS and no problem can hit the "clip" without fail, not because My computer performance, but because I practice at the class and became good with it, like anyone who tries. But enough about me, If ever there is a sliver of chance the developers reconsider this decision, post something in accordance to the information you've gathered.

Up vote or /sign this please!

Thank you my Fellow Combat/Carnage Sentinels and Marauders - may your alacrity stay High!

Khartu's Avatar


Khartu
10.29.2017 , 11:33 AM | #2
I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.

Romeugues's Avatar


Romeugues
10.29.2017 , 11:34 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Khartu View Post
I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.
Um it does.
You also don't need to clip to fit 3 abilities in a ferocity window(alacrity), for 4 abilities you need to clip.

Alora_Cabal's Avatar


Alora_Cabal
10.29.2017 , 03:39 PM | #4
I see a number of issues with the planned shift to ferocity stacks:

- Currently, the ferocity window is 3 seconds. Even without clipping, that is 3 gcd's. Ferocity stacks should be 3, not 2.

- It doesn't make any sense to me that Ravage is not one of the abilities that consume stacks. Massacre would be a waste of one of these stacks, meaning the only abilities worth using are vic throw, dev blast, and gore. If vic throw isn't procc'ed, the stack system allows us to wait until it is, but this doesn't help if you need a big burst all within a few gcds to take out that mob before it channels or finish someone off in pvp while they're low on health or stunned. A burst class should be bursty.

- Sweeping slash is not included as one of the abilities that can utilize a ferocity stacks. This will make Carnage a burst class with no burst aoe.

- The alacrity boost from Berserk will only be minimally useful. It will increase APM as it always has but do little to help burst. It would probably make more sense with ferocity stacks to have berserk boost crit, but contradicts what Carnage is supposed to be, a fast and furious burst spec.

giorgo's Avatar


giorgo
10.29.2017 , 04:55 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Khartu View Post
I don't have a problem with this change conceptually. If it nerfs DPS then I would say that is a problem that they shouldn't create with this change. I like the change itself, i.e., not requiring the clipping of abilities to achieve target DPS. Kind of a cheesy mechanic if you ask me and more like something found out to work rather than designed to work this way. I wouldn't design combos that require the activation of an ability prior to a subsequent ability with that subsequent ability buffing the prior ability. A bit too busy for my design aesthetic. It's even too busy to try to describe it.

I don't think server lag is a total red herring as it can constrain the ability to activate abilities in a timely manner. And, I don't see this change as constraining creativity, rather it currently requires combinations of abilities in a set pattern--that is constraining creativity. If you mean that it removes the creativity of finding a cheesy mechanic than I agree, but I think the change rather allows for a more natural playstyle. I do hope that it will be DPS neutral though. And, sorry I can't jump on the bandwagon here.
Another bad player (you),posting for something that he has no idea about.
What you wrote in two paragraphs can be summarized in one word which is against the forum rules to post it.

Khartu's Avatar


Khartu
10.29.2017 , 09:43 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by giorgo View Post
Another bad player (you),posting for something that he has no idea about.
What you wrote in two paragraphs can be summarized in one word which is against the forum rules to post it.
Well, I play the class. I activate twin saber throw or dispatch, then precision, and then a clashing blast or blade barrage. I do that because that is how to play the class optimally and achieve the highest burst in terms of the current discussion. I don't like it conceptually. I've played MMO's and ARPG's (mostly) for over 10 years and am familiar with class design across the board from all the major games. I'm saying I don't like the current clipping mechanic. It's not a clean, straightforward design. It's optimal in terms of the current design, but it's not elegant. It's a design issue. The clipping mandate is now an element of functional design whether it was foreseen or intended. As most players of the class I have the clipping under my fingers--I really don't invest a lot of play time thinking about the keystrokes. It's when I pause and think about the functional design that effectively mandates clipping combos that it bothers me. You may be playing optimally within the current class conception, as am I, but you don't have a sense for design. That's where we differ in terms of the precision nerf under discussion.

As I said, I'm not happy with a functional nerf. I would be more interested to see a minor reworking that no longer mandated a clipping combo and maintained DPS as well as the class conception and pace.

RikuvonDrake's Avatar


RikuvonDrake
10.29.2017 , 09:48 PM | #7
There is definitely an argument against clipping, that said it's not a huge part of your DPS while at the same time being rewarding for the players who are able to achieve it on a regular basis. I can agree with significant parts of the feedback posted in this thread as well as the main one, however, I think that the BW approach of removing clipping isn't the end of the world. That said having three stacks instead of two would make sense as that is the standard today.

I am a huge proponent of designing classes to be "Easy to play but hard to master", I think that really fits into the general swtor population, not everyone wants to spend hours learning rotations and a very small part of the population need to do it to clear the content they want to do. That said, having incentives for players who either want to improve themselves to clear content or just to reach their full potential with the spec is an important aspect.

Bloodworthy - Tomb of Freedon Nadd - The Red Eclipse - Darth Malgus

Opiklo's Avatar


Opiklo
10.29.2017 , 10:00 PM | #8
you peope talking about clipping while clipping is not the issue....
you want to look smart and look very not so smart while doing it..
2<3 thats the issue... and that only 2 abilities are affected.....
but sure lets discuss clipping.... USE YOUR BRAINS ONCE
Loveskephess Legacy on Satele Shan (Team Schranke)
Neidmeer on Tulak Hord

Khartu's Avatar


Khartu
10.29.2017 , 10:23 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Opiklo View Post
you peope talking about clipping while clipping is not the issue....
you want to look smart and look very not so smart while doing it..
2<3 thats the issue... and that only 2 abilities are affected.....
but sure lets discuss clipping.... USE YOUR BRAINS ONCE
No, it's not actually about 2<3, though I like the post above that mentions 3. This thread is in response to dev changes to the class where they directly address clipping. For the Sentinel:

"DevNotes: We noticed a disparity between damage output on the Combat discipline from players that could successfully “clip” a Dispatch in a Precision window and those who couldn’t, due to factors outside of their control like server latency. Clipping lead to being able to use 3 abilities affected by Precision during the original 3 second window instead of 2. To remedy this, we changed Precision to be stack based, with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds. Additionally, Precision now only affects certain abilities, making it possible for players to use a less optimal ability during the window without sacrificing a stack of Precision.

Although this will look like a DPS loss, Combat’s target DPS has always been calculated without “clipping” in mind, so this change should effectively normalize Combat’s DPS to our target."

That's why people are looking smart or not around the subject of clipping. I believe, unlike the OP, that server latency could be a theoretical problem around clipping though I don't know that it would materially affect a lot of players. I think they should have addressed the reasons for the change more broadly than just referencing server latency.

giorgo's Avatar


giorgo
10.29.2017 , 10:34 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Khartu View Post
No, it's not actually about 2<3, though I like the post above that mentions 3. This thread is in response to dev changes to the class where they directly address clipping. For the Sentinel:

"DevNotes: We noticed a disparity between damage output on the Combat discipline from players that could successfully “clip” a Dispatch in a Precision window and those who couldn’t, due to factors outside of their control like server latency. Clipping lead to being able to use 3 abilities affected by Precision during the original 3 second window instead of 2. To remedy this, we changed Precision to be stack based, with 2 stacks lasting 10 seconds. Additionally, Precision now only affects certain abilities, making it possible for players to use a less optimal ability during the window without sacrificing a stack of Precision.

Although this will look like a DPS loss, Combat’s target DPS has always been calculated without “clipping” in mind, so this change should effectively normalize Combat’s DPS to our target."

That's why people are looking smart or not around the subject of clipping. I believe, unlike the OP, that server latency could be a theoretical problem around clipping though I don't know that it would materially affect a lot of players. I think they should have addressed the reasons for the change more broadly than just referencing server latency.
If you'd play the class you'd know that you can use 3 abilities in the window without clipping regardless of berserk. Clipping is all about the fourth ability, not the third.
The other issues are the flow of the spec, the major dps loss despite what the devs said, the burst that it will have now(worse than fury), the interaction with berserk and the interaction with alacrity. All that are getting destroyed with a single blow. But you'd know that if you played carnage and used half your brain.