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Carnage Rotation Advice (for the new mara players)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sentinel / Marauder
Carnage Rotation Advice (for the new mara players)

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.20.2018 , 11:02 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Draekier View Post
High alacrity brings about a dps loss for carnage. Even on a dummy.
I'm not suprised, although I would have thought alacrity in the 12-13% range might produce something of an evening effect on a dummy, but, my sorties on dummy parsing after the change were somewhat limited to the 'high alacrity build" that everyone is raving about. That one was a no brainer and the testing made that very obvious very quickly.

There are still some people insisting Carnage benefits from it, but any discussions I had with those people [people on my server who were commenting to me based on some of the posts] generally degraded rather quickly as they were of the notion that the post 5.6 Carnage is better than pre- 5.6 and any explanations regarding the "reliability" of the new carnage came at the cost of DPS seem to be lost on them. These were mostly PVPers though who don't really measure DPS the way it's accurately measured so they were probably working under some wrongful assumptions about calculating DPS in PVP. They wouldn't even acknwoledge that the spec sustained a DPS loss because the "reliability" evened it out compared to losses they would have otherwise sustained by missing attacks in the 3 second window prior to the change.

Obviously, you can't measure DPS based on assumed losses you may or may not have incured. Admittedly, there is no question that pre 5.6 Carnage was more risky, and losses could incure if optimal performance were inhibited [true of most specs, but what have you], but that was greatness of Carnage, high risk,high rewarded. You did it right, you got the numbers, you did it wrong, you lost some.

I'm not going to claim I was never missing an attack here and there in PVP due to stuns or what have you, but, I was maintaining enough sucesses that I was still getting more damage out than than I do now with it. As I stated earlier, I'm not suggesting that you cannot put up some nice numbers with it in PVP, merely, that on average I feel I would be putting up somewhat better numbers than I am presently.

Most of the Carnage Marauders I see running around [which is admittedly less than you use to see] seem to still be clinging to the high alacrity builds. I'm not exactly sure why, I'd imagine for some of them it is simply "that's what they are use to" and are more comfortable with it, and change is something people resist at times. I think some of the others are seeing all the posts and recommendations on fleet claiming the increased persormance gained by the high alacrity builds which can produce an added GCD, but not taking into account that assumes a reliable and steady amount of uptime for that to be achieved with any regularity and that's an extremely high stat cost for something that if you are not able to maintain the necessary uptime steadily is leading to a wasted stat pool investment. I can see it being more reliable for a ranged class, but for a melee class, especially in PVP where uptime of any significant amount is often spotty at best, I very seriously doubt many people are achieving the added GCDs with any regularity. That's assumption on my part of course, I don't play all the classes and specs, but I think the theory is sound and can be assumed in many cases to be applicable to many melee specs in PVP.

The DPS loss is admittedly more obvious in PVE [Raiding] where parsing is the rule and everyone sees what everyone's doing throughout the fights, but it would, imo, be foolish to assume that in PVP where the uptime factor is regularly interrupted almost to a rule, 18 seconds of uninterrupted rotation I don't think is a safe bet for that kind of stat investment for many melee specs, but, obviously I won't speak to that with any absurdness.

Most of my thoughts on the matter have been based on live action fighting, and the dummy parsing aspect was never something one put much faith in determining the effectiveness of a spec build in live action in close proximity to what the results would be if put next to each other. It seemed fairly obvious early on that the alacrity build was a DPS loss for carnage in live combat and I stuck with what was producing better numbers for me, which was a high power build. I wish that hadn't been the case because it makes the changes to the spec seem all the more pronounced [in feel and action].

How people choose to gear themselves is there business and I'm not inclined to try to "prove" to others how alacrity interacts with carnage now, if they say they do better with higher alacrity, well that's their business.

I would however be interested to learn how many of these people using the high alacrity build are actually checking to see how reliably the build is affording them the extra GCD. I personally only know of one person, who is one of the finest players I've ever known who has done so but he is of such a high level of skill that it would be hard to equate his success in doing so solely based on the stat spread. Additionally, he runs ranged which will often grant superior uptime in PVP [and in my opinion even in PVE at times in harder content]. But I would not put someone of his skill as representative of anything to a population census, much like another person who is this conversation presently =p

Performance issues aside, anyway you cut it, IMO, this isn't Carnage. Not that it really matters much considering 90% of the Marauders are running Fury now anyways. Go figure.

I'd love to know how you fairing. If you are so inclined, please feel free to send me a PM here, I'd be very interested to hear from you about it.
~ I am Grim.

SWTOR's Public Enemy # 1

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
01.20.2018 , 11:43 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by AdjeYo View Post
This is not entirely accurate, I'm pretty sure they tried to address it before. Remember the whole "Gore is on the global cooldown now" and how that went down

Well considering the game has a global cooldow of 1.5s per ability it seems the intent was pretty clearly to be able to buff two attacks (remember the ability was made long before alacrity reduced the duration of the global cooldown). For better or worse the ability is probably closer to its original intent now, the only problem is it makes the spec lose any sort of urgency and momentum. You can just use a saber strike during your ferocity window since the stacks won't be consumed by it anyways which does kill the idea of the spec a bit.

As for all the alacrity well that's clearly a relic of the old Ravage as it was intended as a way to fit Ravage and another ability in a window, it was never intended to get a third attack in the ferocity window.
Ravage was made instant at the start of 5.0. That was almost a year ago now and the alacrity bonus stayed the same and that was long before they made the change to 5.6.

While many people did clip the 3rd attack into the non-beserk ferocity window, that was a precautionary measure, not a required one. Obviously higher amounts of alacrity would help to fit the third attack into said window without clipping a bit more reliably. Had they simply taken the ability to clip away, and not made it stack based, the playstyle of the spec would not have had to undergo such a big playstyle change because alacrity would have still remained highly valuable to the spec because it would still have been a tight fit to get all remaining attacks into the 3 seconds windows.

I don't mind, obviously, that you can't use assault or battering assault into the ferocity window now, you never would have wanted to have it in their in the first place, however, if for whatever reason that would have been your only option due to a mistake or a timing issue something was still better than nothing, and DST for AOEing in a Ferocity window being the only 30' attack the spec had, would have and had it's value at times.

The larger point being that because carnage had the potential to do some really great burst if the "risk" paid off, making mistakes that costing you because you didn't use an optimal attack in the ferocity window was the natural balancing effect that made that high burst potential not over the top. Mistakes will happen. Leaving the potential to screw up a window was part of the "high risk/ high reward" dynamic. Sure, it would have been better If only the optimal attacks would be registered in the window but than that would have made the spec far too strong.

With the introduction of 5.0, the spec did under go a significant change due to the introduction of a new attack [Gore] and the very high resource management demands it incurred. It made Carnage stronger, but, it also made it harder to play because the resource management was very tight that introduced a new "risk" into the spec that could mess you up. Which was exactly how it should have been, they did right there, one mistake, and you just messed up a window for lack of resources. It was doable of course, but I don't know any carnage marauder that didn't have some issues with that and that it never messed them up from time to time at least. Different levels of skill of course would effect the preponderance of such occurrences of course.

With this change to carnage, now you have to choose which of the "standard" optimal attacks your not going to put into the non- beserk window as you were never putting DST into the non-beserk window anyway. Now, you have to leave one of those three attacks out of it which is what caused the signifcant DPS loss to the 5.6 changes. Naturally of course that makes the resource issues less extreme as well. But, I'd rather be challanged than have my damage culled in a manner there is nothing I can do about. Even if the potential for a mistake was there, at the same time there was the potential for more damage. Now it is like you are missing that third attack into the non-beserk window every single time no matter what. You are locked into mediocrity.

Reliability at the cost of significant damage is not a boon. I never felt that it was unfair that so many things could potentially make me miss an attack and cause a DPS loss, and of course it happened sometimes, but more often it didn't and that potential reward made it all worth it.

Now Carnage is a burst spec when it used to be the "quasi-burst spec" [you were able to still find references from BW on the forums using that terminology even after 5.0], and even still it being outbursted by Fury and Anni, the sustained spec can can drop 30k annihilates which by any defintiion is a burst attack, but we lost our dot on ravage too, and they gave that to Fury as well.

They took from Carnage and gave to Fury. I'm glad Fury got a buff, it needed it and it deserved it, but Carnage didn't deserve what it got.

But hey, I'm the idiot still using it hehe so that's on me. I'm not jumping ship and I'm still beating Fury Marauders for Damage in PVP a good amount of the time, but that's not a spec issue that's a player one. On even ground, Fury does notably more damage. It's not even close. Carnage is capping at 10.2k [ my high had been about 10.7 prior] and Fury is is capping 10.8k and so is Anni [1.5 and 2.5]. Fury has anti cc passives, can leap to snipers, has a second leap, more mobility and can't run out of rage, and Anni has group heals.

But that's the deal. I'll be Carnage til I'm dead heh. Just makes the challenge to do well with it all the greater and when you can beat the others numbers at times, that's a good feeling and you know you earned it.
You never know your strengths until your tested.
~ I am Grim.

SWTOR's Public Enemy # 1

The_X's Avatar


The_X
01.21.2018 , 12:42 AM | #13
Here's what happened... back in 2.0 some dev got rekt repeatedly by one or more Carnage marauders. It got so bad that the scream haunted him at night. vmm vmm vmm RAHH!! This dev, unable to L2P or heal to full and make them pay, weaseled his way onto the Combat Team and began systematically dismantling Carnage. Years later.. Carnage has no scream, is no longer really Carnage, and is heartbreaking to play. GG #Carnage4Life

DarthYun's Avatar


DarthYun
01.21.2018 , 07:16 PM | #14
I love you, and I miss you, huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuuuuuuuu



I really, I really want you to come back
huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

I feel like a clown playing Fury and Anni isn't my thing. The feel of carnage was a brilliant thing. Every ferocity window was rewarding and now it's dead and gone. The last bastion of skill and satisfaction.

I love all of you who enjoyed this spec and I hope we will see better days and amen to your wall of text WayOfTheWarriorx.

g_mK's Avatar


g_mK
01.22.2018 , 08:52 AM | #15
Carnage4Life
The ingenious gentleman Dón-Quijote de la Mancha

giorgo's Avatar


giorgo
01.23.2018 , 01:08 PM | #16
Try this in pvp(very situational of course) :

Mid fight and if you know you won't be attacking anyone for the next 4-5 seconds pre-cast ferocity. When you have just below 6 seconds before ferocity cooldown refreshes do this rotation: DST - Battering assault - berserk - gore - ravage - massacre - ferocity - VT - DB - massacre.

You're welcome

Bonzenaattori's Avatar


Bonzenaattori
01.28.2018 , 12:12 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by giorgo View Post
Try this in pvp(very situational of course) :

Mid fight and if you know you won't be attacking anyone for the next 4-5 seconds pre-cast ferocity. When you have just below 6 seconds before ferocity cooldown refreshes do this rotation: DST - Battering assault - berserk - gore - ravage - massacre - ferocity - VT - DB - massacre.

You're welcome
I'd rather just do two Zens back to back
stalling a ferocity window is pointless unless your opponent either has sustain or hasn't figured out how to win a 1v1 with a training dummy yet

giorgo's Avatar


giorgo
01.28.2018 , 09:47 AM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Bonzenaattori View Post
I'd rather just do two Zens back to back
stalling a ferocity window is pointless unless your opponent either has sustain or hasn't figured out how to win a 1v1 with a training dummy yet
But you are not stalling a ferocity window if you are not attacking anyone for the next few seconds anyway for various reasons (ex. switching sides in voidstar or going back to mid in civil war). I think you didn't read my post carefully.

Besides that, sometimes it's beneficial to seat on your stacks in order to counter a powerfull dcd.

Kyuuu's Avatar


Kyuuu
01.29.2018 , 05:21 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
There goes another one....tut...tut...tut....

Enjoy Fury, everyone else is heh


<<Back at the Carnage Cave>>

Hello? OOooo.....

Anyone else out there? EeEeeee.....

.......... Bueler...Bueler....Bueler.....

Shyt...
I still play carnage despite I really hate when they did to it, the last change

Jaysantomo's Avatar


Jaysantomo
02.02.2018 , 08:45 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by RACATW View Post
For anyone new to mara in PvP (or PvE) wondering what the new rotation is after the carnage nerf, it is: carnage into anni or fury.


I hope this simple guide helps you!
Let me correct you its Carnage has the best burst out of all three

I hope you can achieve success with this