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Harm in 12xXP


Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
09.30.2015 , 08:34 AM | #141
Quote: Originally Posted by Breech View Post
Well, I don't know the rest of the game, but thanks to this now I have:

A) A guild. Maybe not a very active one, but full of people to talk with.
B) A main, very well geared, and ready for the KoTFE expansion.
C) Friends to play with. Thanks to this one, I've convinced several friends to come back to game and sub.
D) Now I've a toon for every class. I've seen all the stories, both In the Republic and the Empire, and also Now I have Healers, ranged/CC DPS and tanks, all of them well geared and ready to any group content, including raids. So, grouping is no longer a problem.
E) Now I'm doing some raids, that before I can't do.
F) Thanks to that, now I can sell the items I found in the group content and rare drops in the GTM. I've finally money to buy some decorations or even the strongholds I want, so I can finally put some designs to work, and I've money for helping friends and new comers in my guild.
G) Without the worry of the damn PvE gear, I can now focus in activites like this bounty hunter thing, some spaceship PvP, and even some role events.

And that's what I can come up right now. So, I don't know the rest, but this 12xp booster is a BLESSING for me. NO MORE GRINDING, so I can actually enjoy the damn game.
Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.

Uruare's Avatar


Uruare
09.30.2015 , 09:23 AM | #142
A well framed view, Draqso, though I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Having nothing but anecdotes to work from, all I can say is that my personal experiences haven't reflected your suppositions at all. I've done more of everything because it's vastly easier to level now and I haven't felt at all like I wasn't keeping pace with my goals to go screw around and help do heroics and snag leveling gear out of leveling fp's, to conserve dem coms.

The guilds my various toons are in gave been busier than not, with loads of people leveling together even if their levels were disparate because it didn't screw up the xp that mattered for a 37, a 44 and a bored 65 to be smashing eachothers' class quests out.

I'm sure others' mileage can and will vary, but mine has been super positive on the whole

I've even recently started a gulf on one toon just to do more group stuff with and its taken off like a goofy little rocket.

Seems to me that people like playing with eachother more when the pressure is off rather than less.

Mikahrtwo's Avatar


Mikahrtwo
09.30.2015 , 09:37 AM | #143
Quote: Originally Posted by Draqsko View Post
Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.
F2P quit anyway. And lol at "noone groups so they quit" riiiiiiiiiight.

Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.

Even later you couldnt find a group for FPs after Athiss easily, you had to shout on fleet for hours, pretty much nobody did heroics, etc. etc.

I dont know where all these people saying there was some kind of grouping golden age before F2P/12x xp are popping up from lol

Uruare's Avatar


Uruare
09.30.2015 , 12:38 PM | #144
Quote: Originally Posted by Mikahrtwo View Post
F2P quit anyway. And lol at "noone groups so they quit" riiiiiiiiiight.

Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.

Even later you couldnt find a group for FPs after Athiss easily, you had to shout on fleet for hours, pretty much nobody did heroics, etc. etc.

I dont know where all these people saying there was some kind of grouping golden age before F2P/12x xp are popping up from lol

They're making crap up or just flat out weren't even here and think they know how it surely was anyway, I think.

ShieldProtection's Avatar


ShieldProtection
09.30.2015 , 12:54 PM | #145
People blaming to BioWare because leveling is hard and takes much time

People blaming to BioWare because now you can level up faster

..before you bash me, may I ask, what you want from developers..?

_NovaBlast_'s Avatar


_NovaBlast_
09.30.2015 , 01:02 PM | #146
this thread and the op comes down to " i don't like players having a choice on how they play the game because i think it should be played this way and everyone should be forced to play the game the way i think it should be done"

LordDelectus's Avatar


LordDelectus
09.30.2015 , 01:19 PM | #147
I will throw my two cents in.

I have by nature been an antisocial gamer, always have. I LOVE LOVE LOVE Star Wars, but it took six-eight months to get on to TOR because I was so hesitant of MMO.

As a story gamer, I have to say being social is not optional. You want to know canonical content? Gotta do ops and flashpoints. GF for ops is a joke for DPS, you must have a guild or you will never get to do them.

What happens to the Supreme Mogul of the Hutt Cartel? Gotta op!

What happens to the Dread Masters? Gotta do three ops!

Want half the ending to the Revan storyline? Gotta op.

I was avoiding social heroics before 12xp. This basically is a time saver from doing solo side quests. Nothing more. It is helping me move through stories quicker and retain information, which sounds critical before KotFE.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
09.30.2015 , 01:46 PM | #148
Quote: Originally Posted by Draqsko View Post
Got news for you, the worst grind in this game is yet to come. Getting BIS gear takes more time than getting to max level even without 12xp.

I have a level 50+ sage that hasn't set foot on Tatooine yet for the story. Leveling was never hard in this game since they increased the xp rewards for subscribers after F2P transition. At launch you had to grind every quest, heroic, fp and pvp daily just to stay a couple levels over content, oh and you had to do that with a partner to get the increased xp from being in a group. After F2P came though, quests turned grey halfway through the first planet if you did everything as a subscriber, and as long as you did some side quests along the way it would be like that until you hit 50 on Belsavis. The only thing 12x did was allow you to skip ALL other content besides the class story.

You could have always enjoyed the game for almost the last 3 years if you were a sub with minimal questing beyond the class story, it only sucked as F2P. It's not like 12xp changed any of that for F2P, in fact I'd say it made it worse for F2P players since now subs could completely bypass heroics and flashpoints while leveling instead of having to do them occasionally to stay overleveled. That has done more harm to this game than many realize, because some of those F2P players in my guild eventually became subs, but most F2P nowadays just quit playing since no one does group content that would help them level and grinding mob kills gets boring fast.

Either way, it's too late now, that water has long passed under the bridge. But at least let's not kid ourselves, 12x harmed the game more than it did good. It homogenized the player base by creating 2 classes of players and effectively removing the lower class from progressing at all relative to the upper class. Most of that lower class doesn't exist anymore.

And before anyone says well they aren't paying so they should get out, those F2P players did bring something to the table too, life and vibrancy to a host of servers, many of which are ghost towns now. Trust me, this game lost a lot in the past year, and there was probably more than one cause, but 12x is definitely one reason.
I have to ask; Why are you concerned so much about being "overleveled" for the content? I have yet to find that it's necessary if I'm even moderately keeping up with gear. Case in point: I just finished the SW story and I don't have any relics, and my earbud was lvl 29, I hit 51 on the turn in. The armors were 41 and the mods/enhancements were 49, because I was being cheap, and don't have any crafters high enough to make the gear I'd have liked to have had for that fight yet, since I'm on a new server, and guildless, by choice. To top this, I haven't done any group content at all, not even going back and soloing BT while way over level.

I have, however, had plenty of interaction with other players: I've had players blow up the box on Yavin as I was putting my binoculars away. I've had players swoop in and spawn the Elite while I was clearing the trash. I've had players swoop in and claim quest/mat nodes while I was clearing the trash around them so I could get them. Tell me, again, what incentive I should have to group with people like that? These are the same people that will roll "Need" on every single drop, that will spend all their time going on and on about how "superior" they are, all while being the first one dead, and screaming about how it's everyone else's fault that it happened.

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
09.30.2015 , 02:30 PM | #149
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
I have to ask; Why are you concerned so much about being "overleveled" for the content?
I am not, but the fact is being a subscriber basically overleveled you after F2P was introduced and they upped the xp rewards, and grouping with people just multiplied that. The only time where there was any kind of a leveling grind was at launch.

Personally I am not concerned about being overleveled because I always get overleveled. I do Ops on my commando, scoundrel and guardian. Only my guardian has finished chapter 3, and only the guardian I played at launch ever got to chapter 3 before level 50, and he hit 50 before I even finished Belsavis. I didn't grind anything either then, I did the story, ran flashpoints, did pvp and after about level 25 I even started backing off on anything beyond class and planetary story arcs because I was overleveling. My commando and scoundrel? Scoundrel didn't finish chapter 2 until he was 60, commando finished chapter 2 at 55, my sage is 54 or 55 now and still hasn't done Tatooine. In fact I can do Qyzen's quest while I do Tatooine because I've already maxed out his affection.

12XP was never necessary to avoid the grind in this game, the only players that have to grind are F2P. So please, let's just stop saying it helped avoid grinding because this game was one of the least grindy ones I've ever played even at launch.

Quote: Originally Posted by Mikahrtwo View Post
Newsflash, F2P have severe limitations on any group activity, WZs, FPs, OPs and even quest rewards. You should try it out sometimes and see for yourself since you seem oblivious to certain things.

And what you say about leveling in vanilla is utterly wrong, i was one of first level 50s on server and havent touched ANY group content, for very obvious reason - there was at most 2-3 people on my level to play with. You could reach 50 just by questing and even be a bit overleveled just fine.
Newsflash, if you played at launch then you'd know that the xp that F2P gets now, is the xp that subs got at launch. So I'm gonna call BS on you never grouping or doing group content and being one of the first 50s unless you sat there and grinded mobs an insane amount of time.

And yes, the whole restrictions on the ability to do group content is what really slows F2P more than subs at launch. I should know, I bought enough passes for guildies who were F2P just so they could do stuff with the guild and advance at a reasonable rate. Now they not only have to contend with the restrictions but the fact that subs bypass that content entirely now while leveling for the most part.

Draqsko's Avatar


Draqsko
09.30.2015 , 02:54 PM | #150
Quote: Originally Posted by Uruare View Post
A well framed view, Draqso, though I'm not sure I entirely agree.

Having nothing but anecdotes to work from, all I can say is that my personal experiences haven't reflected your suppositions at all. I've done more of everything because it's vastly easier to level now and I haven't felt at all like I wasn't keeping pace with my goals to go screw around and help do heroics and snag leveling gear out of leveling fp's, to conserve dem coms.

The guilds my various toons are in gave been busier than not, with loads of people leveling together even if their levels were disparate because it didn't screw up the xp that mattered for a 37, a 44 and a bored 65 to be smashing eachothers' class quests out.

I'm sure others' mileage can and will vary, but mine has been super positive on the whole

I've even recently started a gulf on one toon just to do more group stuff with and its taken off like a goofy little rocket.

Seems to me that people like playing with eachother more when the pressure is off rather than less.
Thanks for maintaining a level-headed discussion.

Yes, I am not fool enough to believe my experience applies to everyone, but at the same time neither should anyone else. The fact is, there wouldn't be dead servers with people leaving before they even get to max level. I run a guild, I know why they leave because I ask them if possible. The biggest reason is the frustration of trying to get groups together to do Heroics and Flashpoints these days.

As far as pressure, well you make your own pressure while leveling, no one else. My first character didn't hit 50 until right before the first Rakghoul event and I started playing this game after Christmas since it was my present to myself that year. Never felt any pressure to level up despite the fact that my GM at the time kept bugging me and my girlfriend to hurry up and hit 50 so we could join them in PvP.

If it is true as you said about people playing together more with no pressure, then how was I always able to get groups together almost instantly before 12xp, but now it's like pulling teeth? No one wants to group, they just want to do class stories and blow through them to max level. And that was before the population crashed on my server.