Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Austin you have no idea what you're talking about. commando healer/dps with a guard is immortal. Play your own game.

Austin you have no idea what you're talking about. commando healer/dps with a guard is immortal. Play your own game.

 

check the date on that post bud

On the issue of Electro Net, the most powerful defensive ability of a Sage/Op healer is not a CD or a teammate. It's the ability to turn around a corner and instantly lose every ranged DPS and about half of the melee DPS. They accomplish this with Force Speed/Scamper. These two low/no CD abilities is generally sufficient to escape. Failing that, there's Vanish and Force Barrier, which almost always works against focus fire.

 

Electro Net takes away all 4 of those options, forcing the healer to stand still. Stuff like taunt, heals, etc., should already be used on the behalf of the healer the whole time. If the healer is forced to stand still and you still can't kill him, either your team is just bad, or that the enemy has a guard and 2 other healer healing him. In that case your game is likely going to be a stalemate which involves a different type of strat, but Mercs aren't bad in a stalemate either since you can always just start healing too (3 healer + 1 tank implies enemy DPS got to be pretty feeble).

 

The only way to get out of Electro Net is a friendly pull but you should have your own pull enemy to deal with that.

electronet doesnt force you to stand still. the damage from the DoT on it is not huge.

 

lot of crying going on....

electronet doesnt force you to stand still. the damage from the DoT on it is not huge.

 

lot of crying going on....

 

The dot certainly does a lot of damage when it gets to 10 stacks because you're moving the whole time.

 

Also, it's a very strong snare. You might as well be standing still even if you're trying to move. Just from eyeballing the snare on it is worse than having the Huttball by far. Unlike normal snares, neither Force Speed nor Scamper can get out of it. A healer is normally always snared but these two abilities gives you enough distance even while snared to round a corner.

whens 2.1 coming out?

The dot certainly does a lot of damage when it gets to 10 stacks because you're moving the whole time.

 

Also, it's a very strong snare. You might as well be standing still even if you're trying to move. Just from eyeballing the snare on it is worse than having the Huttball by far. Unlike normal snares, neither Force Speed nor Scamper can get out of it. A healer is normally always snared but these two abilities gives you enough distance even while snared to round a corner.

 

its a 50% snare. and it will deal a max of 6-7k damage over 9s.

 

keep the tears flowing tho

I'll be fair. Electronet is the best ability in the game and its existence is the main reason why you'd want a merc over MM sniper. With coordination you should come away with a healer kill every time it's off CD. It can not be cleansed, it prevents escape tools (cloak, bubble, speed) and to boot is the highest damage dot in the game.

 

That logic is flawed , FIRST

 

The sniper can plant and not be jumped on by smasher while a merc can never plant to get off the high damage shots

 

SECOND

 

The Electro Net that everyone is complaining about has a 1 Minute 30 Second Cooldown. Much longer cooldown then Orbital Strike.

So...all cooldowns besides Reactive Shield which are currently on longer than a 60s cooldown lowered to 60 seconds base with options to talent various ones lower within the trees? Got it. Get on it BW.

So...all cooldowns besides Reactive Shield which are currently on longer than a 60s cooldown lowered to 60 seconds base with options to talent various ones lower within the trees? Got it. Get on it BW.

 

By got it, you mean they'll double the cooldown lengths?

electronet is *not* the best ability in the game......

 

that being said, mando/merc is much better off than pre 2.0 (at least gunny/arsenal). our burst rotation no longer exceeds TTK. we have a tool to escape from dangerous situations. we have a group oriented utility skill. in general our mobility is way up.

 

does that mean there are still not issues with the class? no, it doesnt. the cooldowns of some of our utility skills are not inline with the benefit they provide, and im hoping that gets addressed.

 

that and the crit nerf is a pain for mando/merc, but that is not unique to us.

 

I totally agree with this. Commando/Merc feels much better now than it did before 2.0. If all of our abilities are off cd, we can now unleash impressive burst, especially if Curtain or Fire/Barrage procs after the 1st or 2nd Grav/Tracer. More than one derpsmasher learned that we're not pushovers anymore when our net is off cd. On a good day, if left alone, we can provide roughly the same output of a MM Sniper/ SS 'Slinger. (I say roughly because they still outdps us by a small margin on targets under 30% because of their finisher but this difference varies by player skill.)

 

But that doesn't mean that Commandos are preferable to Gunslingers or at least that they're as preferable as Gunslingers. Their cover still gives them a tremendous advantage over every other class. They can't be jumped or interrupted by default and if they pick a hard to approach vantage point, they'll be virtually immune to melee as long as they're there. If you have two classes that put out roughly the same damage but one is immune to interrupts and jumps by default, guess which one people will choose. Especially, now that the two traditional weak points of Snipers/Gunslingers (low mobility /vulnerability to stealthers) no longer hamper them.

 

I didn't forget the fact that as compensation Commandos (and Sages) can heal themselves. If you don't have dedicated healers, especially in unraked pug warzones, this can be a tremendous advantage over Snipers/'Slingers. I've saved myself with self-heals many times, where a Sniper would have died. But in ranked warzones or premade teams there are dedicated healers, so self-heals become redundant. Therefore, you're still better off picking a Sniper/Gunslinger every time for ranked.

 

It seems to me that Snipers can effectively counter every class in the game, be that melee or ranged, DPS or tank or healer, force users or tech users. What are they supposed to be weak against?

Edited May 5, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

Supposedly stealth, but they recently got a counter to them too.

mostly dot classes, or anyone that can get to them and displace them. Really snipers are everything a ranged turret should be. It's just that makes our own shortcomings so very very obvious.

to kill a sniper you really have to LoS. ive gotten into a DPS race with a couple and it usually ends with me running behind a corner to heal and leave the sniper alone.

 

the only class ive had real issues with are assassins. im also only about 50% geared so maybe that will come with more gear, its hard to tell with bolster.

 

the crit nerf is really, really annoying me tho. its like a lottery system now. if i get lucky and land a few crits in a row i can put out competitive dps. if i have a dry spell (which is the norm now) then i cant really keep up the dps. meanwhile focus/rage spec players are guaranteed to crit me for 7-9k every 12s either auto-crits need to go, or undo the crit nerf.

It's clear in 2.0 crits are supposed to be like winning the lottery, unless you're a Smasher.

On the issue of Electro Net, the most powerful defensive ability of a Sage/Op healer is not a CD or a teammate. It's the ability to turn around a corner and instantly lose every ranged DPS and about half of the melee DPS. They accomplish this with Force Speed/Scamper. These two low/no CD abilities is generally sufficient to escape.

 

True, true , true. Hence the outright superiority of good healers over good dps in the current game.

 

Electro Net takes away all 4 of those options, forcing the healer to stand still...The only way to get out of Electro Net is a friendly pull but you should have your own pull enemy to deal with that.

 

False and false. No character is forced to stand still with EN on him. In fact tanks and dps Juggs can basically ignore it. And every other character can still move for about half the duration of the EN without too much difficulty. But - they need to do that on the back half of the EN duration window. Moving around for the first half of that window involves taking a lot more damage. Thus EN, just like the entire Arsenal platorm in 2.0, and indeed Merc as a whole in the 1.2-1.4 era, is a weapon that relies on bad opponents to succeed. Against strong opponents that understand their class and other classes, EN is not going to get you a win, much less be a "I win" button. Simply put, people who think that are not a subset of the "strong opponents" category.

 

And no, a friendly pull is not the only way to get out of Electronet. In fact, it doesn't get you out of ElectroNet at all...unlike other methods that do...

False and false. No character is forced to stand still with EN on him. In fact tanks and dps Juggs can basically ignore it. And every other character can still move for about half the duration of the EN without too much difficulty. But - they need to do that on the back half of the EN duration window. Moving around for the first half of that window involves taking a lot more damage. Thus EN, just like the entire Arsenal platorm in 2.0, and indeed Merc as a whole in the 1.2-1.4 era, is a weapon that relies on bad opponents to succeed. Against strong opponents that understand their class and other classes, EN is not going to get you a win, much less be a "I win" button. Simply put, people who think that are not a subset of the "strong opponents" category.

 

And no, a friendly pull is not the only way to get out of Electronet. In fact, it doesn't get you out of ElectroNet at all...unlike other methods that do...

 

I said healers not other DPS. Electro Net is of limited use against DPS in any large scale fight just because chances are someone else is going to be close enough for them to attack, and it's also useless on any grapple capable class unless no other player besides the Merc is within 30m. But with healer being overwhelming strong in the current metagame, there's really no point to consider the drawback of an ability that's weak against non-healers when it's absolutely brutal against healers (Op/Sorc at least). Sure, the healer can still move, but you're very unlikely to clear a corner while moving 50%, and you obviously won't be losing any melee while moving away from them at 50% speed. Therefore they will generally take all the DPS you have planned for that healer, In fact they'd be better off not moving because if you can't clear a corner, you might as well not move as this at least reduces the damage from the Net. You sure aren't avoiding any DPS while slowly crawling your way to a corner.

 

Sure there are plenty of times where a Net didn't kill a healer. Either the enemy side had way more healing than we anticipated, or our DPS was simply not paying attention (or even aware that a healer is netted). In the former case it's likely nothing was going to kill that healer, and the latter case you can't say an ability is weak just because your team didn't pay attention.

It'd be great if electro net stopped charges.

I said healers not other DPS...Sure, the healer can still move, but you're very unlikely to clear a corner while moving 50%, and you obviously won't be losing any melee while moving away from them at 50% speed.

 

You did. And I stated that any class including healers could move half the time while under ElectroNet without a lot of difficulty. You might be able to lose a melee. You can definitely LoS a ranged attacker. And as any good healer, even one under EN, will require two dps to take down (double that number if he has guard, which he will on a good team), some of his attackers are highly likely to be ranged and thus LoSed.

 

Sure there are plenty of times where a Net didn't kill a healer. Either the enemy side had way more healing than we anticipated, or our DPS was simply not paying attention (or even aware that a healer is netted).

 

You are forgetting the main reason why EN fails. Why vs. a good healer, 90% of the time EN will not kill him.

 

It'd be great if electro net stopped charges.

 

It does.

Edited May 6, 2013 by Macroeconomics

Right now healers are very hard to kill, period. Even with 4 DPS all on the same guy, you've something like 10% chance of actually killing a strong, guarded healer if he's not netted. Force Speed/Scamper will foil most attempts, and Vanish/Force Barrier definitely stops just about any focus fire attempt. Having a netted healer increases the probability of success greatly, and no other ability comes close. It's 'Iwin' in the sense that it's your best shot at killing a healer at all, and killing the healer wins you games. Yes healing is overpowered to the point that a netted healer still has a high chance of survival, but try to kill that healer without the net. They'll LoS you all day long. I've spent entire matches chasing a healer around a pillar with nothing to show for it. If they're netted, at least they can't ever lose me on the pillars while they're netted. Is that enough to take them down? I don't know, but I sure aren't taking them down when they can lose me on the pillars. Edited May 6, 2013 by Astarica

Right now healers are very hard to kill, period. Even with 4 DPS all on the same guy, you've something like 10% chance of actually killing a strong, guarded healer if he's not netted...Having a netted healer increases the probability of success greatly, and no other ability comes close. It's 'Iwin' in the sense that it's your best shot at killing a healer at all

 

I don't have an issue with the first part of your statement. But saying that EN is a "I win" button when in fact it is a "force the healer to save his cc breaker" button is just wrong. Let's recall that this line of discussion first began when you stated that EN would allow you to kill an enemy healer unless "the enemy has a guard and 2 other healer healing him". I simply dispute that.

 

Any good ranked team with 2 healers and a guard fighting at the main node will shrug off any EN usage. Even in a more advantaged scenario involving 4 attacking dps with EN available vs. 4 defenders (2 dps, a tank and a healer with the healer not having his cc breaker), a good ranked team will not be bothered by EN. Your 4 attacking dps are busy attacking the ElectroNet-ed, non-moving healer with a -30% taunt penalty. Which means you effectively have 2.8 attackers. And only 1.4 attackers effectively burning though to the healer due to guard. The healer can heal through that. The guard pops his defensive CDs and lives. And 9 seconds later you find those two enemy dps killed or are soon to kill one of your dps. Which means you've lost the battle.

 

Bottom line, against good opponents, EN is of negligible value. What you want to do with EN is find a weak opponent whom over extends himself. Then EN will let you kill him faster than you normally would. That is all EN does.

I don't have an issue with the first part of your statement. But saying that EN is a "I win" button when in fact it is a "force the healer to save his cc breaker" button is just wrong. Let's recall that this line of discussion first began when you stated that EN would allow you to kill an enemy healer unless "the enemy has a guard and 2 other healer healing him". I simply dispute that.

 

Any good ranked team with 2 healers and a guard fighting at the main node will shrug off any EN usage. Even in a more advantaged scenario involving 4 attacking dps with EN available vs. 4 defenders (2 dps, a tank and a healer with the healer not having his cc breaker), a good ranked team will not be bothered by EN. Your 4 attacking dps are busy attacking the ElectroNet-ed, non-moving healer with a -30% taunt penalty. Which means you effectively have 2.8 attackers. And only 1.4 attackers effectively burning though to the healer due to guard. The healer can heal through that. The guard pops his defensive CDs and lives. And 9 seconds later you find those two enemy dps killed or are soon to kill one of your dps. Which means you've lost the battle.

 

Bottom line, against good opponents, EN is of negligible value. What you want to do with EN is find a weak opponent whom over extends himself. Then EN will let you kill him faster than you normally would. That is all EN does.

 

You are putting way too much faith in taunt. The only way taunt can work like you say is if all the attackers are melee. If they're a mixed of ranged/melee, there's no way you can taunt them all. Further, to imply you have your taunts up says that apparently the DPS output of these guys was so feeble that the tank did not felt pressured to use taunt at every opportunity. In that case, if the DPS output was not enough to bother the healer at all prior to the Electro Net, of course adding the Electro Net still isn't going to be enough. I don't know why you even bring up issues like enemy DPS attacking your DPS, as if enemy DPS normally just sit around and do nothing instead.

 

Assuming the two team have equal composition, of course there's a healer somewhere back there to ensure those 4 DPS don't just instantly die. We're not talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS versus healer + tank + 2 DPS. The latter is almost certainly going to win just because the other side don't have a healer. We're talking about what happens in the middle of a battle if you send 4 DPS after a netted healer. The side with the 4 DPS still have their healer/tank around to do whatever they'd normally do. Nobody is saying EN is enough for you to take a team with no healers and defeat a team with 1 (or more).

Edited May 6, 2013 by Astarica

Your claim was that EN would give you a kill on a healer unless that healer had a tank AND two other healers healing him. It's just not true. I reduced your recipe to a single tank and a single healer, and showed that if you tunnel vision with your 4 dps on the healer who has been ElectroNet-ed, you are hurting YOURSELF, not the enemy.

 

And about taunts. No, 4 dps aren't going to pressure an enemy team. Not a good one. That's part of the problem with high level pvp in this game. The defense is so favored over the attack that the defending tank doesn't need to use his defensive CDs, until he senses the attackers are trying to burst. Same with the healer. And others besides the tank can taunt. Your most popular dps subclass (assassins) can taunt. And so actually, yes, once a good enemy team sees that your dps are going through a burst phase, your dps are more likely than not to be taunted.

 

Assuming the two team have equal composition, of course there's a healer somewhere back there to ensure those 4 DPS don't just instantly die. We're not talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS versus healer + tank + 2 DPS.

 

Actually I was talking about an isolated battle of 4 DPS vs. heal, tank & 2 dps. But if you are going to add a healer to the attacking squad, then it is only appropriate to remove a dps from that squad. Which makes the chances of penetrating the enemy healer's defenses during the 9 sec duration of EN even worse. I specifically set that scenario up as the best possible for the attackers to have a chance of generating a healer kill during the 9 sec duration of EN. And it's not a good probability. Subtracting dps from the attacking squad just makes those chances worse. Sure, swapping a healer for a dps on the attack squad improves the chances that the attackers can maintain an equilibrium. But if that's the result, what effect did EN have? None. Which is the point isn't it?

Edited May 6, 2013 by Macroeconomics

Long story short: EN is really nice, but ultimately, in any kind of competitive PVP environment, EN is probably not going to help you kill someone you weren't already going to kill.

 

Actually I think the ability has a lot more application in smaller scale encounters, like going 2v1 on an off node being solo guarded, using Enet to stop a solo guard from stealthing out to prolong the engagement and stall a bit longer, but the thing there is those are the exact situations where DPS commandos are actually very ill favored. We're overall much better in the big scale encounters where, as mentioned, EN has much less ability to make an impact. Especially on a 90s cooldown.

Bunko! I'm disappointed in you guys.