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Some classes feel out of place

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Some classes feel out of place

Saos's Avatar


Saos
06.29.2015 , 05:50 PM | #11
"X beat Y and Y beat Z so clearly X would beat Z."

You know, the problem with those kinds of deductions in anything is that you are substituting information with assumption. It's pointless when my friends do it during football season and it's probably far more pointless when you do it about SW lore.

This is all related to the Alpha class discussion. But that's been settled for years now with this game, the Jedi/Sith you can roll in SWTOR are roughly equivalent in power to the Troopers or Agents you can roll. Yes, this conflicts directly with the image of force users presented in the SW films and other media, but it cannot be reconciled with non-force using classes in an MMO otherwise. You must accept some level of suspension of disbelief in the name of fairness.

And so, by extension in this game, we also have to accept the same when dealing with NPC's. What happens when Bioware spends time and resources creating nothing other than class fluff (your personalized bosses with their own dialogue, fights and voiceacting), so that you can feel your smuggler is of proportional power, and then my Marauder gets steamrolled by him 20 times in a row in PvP?... You didn't beat Malgus! I did! Clearly I am more powerful and should have won!

Just a few more thoughts for the thread...

Han Solo was nothing more than an average smuggler who as fate would have it, became involved with some very serious players in galactic events. Eventually he would prove to have something of a conscience and ended up getting more and more involved with said people. Nothing I've ever read or seen states Solo was even above-average in his abilities... he had a quicker draw than Greedo and held his own against Stormtroopers. That's it.

Anakin, while having the potential to be one of the strongest Force users to have ever lived, lost a great deal of his power when Kenobi beat him and left him to burn on Mustafar. Sidious realized this, it's why he spent a decade or more grooming and manipulating Anakin, it's why he sacrificed a Sith Lord who was renowned as one of the greatest duelists in the galaxy for him, and it's why eventually he ended up over Endor fully prepared to discard this man in favor of his barely-trained force sensitive son. Vader's power had greatly diminished, and while it was sufficient to finish enforcement of Order 66 and still be useful, it wasn't enough to surpass his master and take the reigns for himself as the Rule of Two dictates. Vader became a tool operating on a limited lifespan awaiting either death or replacement.
Ozrik, 42 Mercenary
Saos, 47 Sorcerer
Zander, 17 Sniper
Prymus, 23 Marauder

AnotherSith's Avatar


AnotherSith
07.03.2015 , 12:02 AM | #12
People who like to talk about how Force Users can Push/Crush/Throw their non-Force adversaries away easily must like to forget about how KOTOR 2 showed us the numerous ways non-Force Users can defeat Jedi/Sith very handily.

No blasters. Instead rely on: Electric weapons, Skin-Contact/Nerve Gas weapons, Electromagnetic Pulse weapons *The BH uses this one* or simultaneous indirect explosives.

Always get the first strike. Stealth and ambushes are ideal.

Outnumber them. Why fight alone when you can bring more and take them out from multiple angles in a surprise attack? Though this invalidates the 1v1 aspect.

Use irregular methods to avoid falling to premonitions.

Just blast them with a starship or heavy artillery, because who fights fair when eugenics are a factor?

And if you can, learn some of those lovely Emotion-Wall tricks and "Card-Counting" skills to make the Force Sense powers completely null.

Of course all this expensive gadgetry fits Agents and Bounty Hunters perfectly, the Bounty Hunter needs the best of the best to do his job and the Agent is backed by the finances of the Empire and their contacts. The Smuggler might have access to cutting edge tech as a Privateer of the Republic who works on Underworld jobs on the side.

The Trooper though idk. He really doesn't fit all that well imo even Republic Commandos get rather underwhelming gear compared to private contractors in SW.
Translation: 2% probability that the miniature organic is simply looking for trouble, and needs to be blasted. That may be wishful thinking on my part master.

Dayshadow's Avatar


Dayshadow
07.03.2015 , 01:24 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by Frenesi View Post
That's becouse IRL the first scrapper's backblast is also the last one. Almost no amount of force using will save you from huge hole in your chest.
That assumes it penetrates the force user's armor, be it physical plates or force defenses.

The scattergun is specifically designed to ignore a lightsaber. It's weird that it can only be fired from behind and isn't a main attack weapon. You'd think they'd all be packing shotguns for attack with 5m range.
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SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
07.03.2015 , 09:36 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by AnotherSith View Post
People who like to talk about how Force Users can Push/Crush/Throw their non-Force adversaries away easily must like to forget about how KOTOR 2 showed us the numerous ways non-Force Users can defeat Jedi/Sith very handily.

No blasters. Instead rely on: Electric weapons, Skin-Contact/Nerve Gas weapons, Electromagnetic Pulse weapons *The BH uses this one* or simultaneous indirect explosives.

Always get the first strike. Stealth and ambushes are ideal.

Outnumber them. Why fight alone when you can bring more and take them out from multiple angles in a surprise attack? Though this invalidates the 1v1 aspect.

Use irregular methods to avoid falling to premonitions.

Just blast them with a starship or heavy artillery, because who fights fair when eugenics are a factor?

And if you can, learn some of those lovely Emotion-Wall tricks and "Card-Counting" skills to make the Force Sense powers completely null.

Of course all this expensive gadgetry fits Agents and Bounty Hunters perfectly, the Bounty Hunter needs the best of the best to do his job and the Agent is backed by the finances of the Empire and their contacts. The Smuggler might have access to cutting edge tech as a Privateer of the Republic who works on Underworld jobs on the side.

The Trooper though idk. He really doesn't fit all that well imo even Republic Commandos get rather underwhelming gear compared to private contractors in SW.
This is all true, but doesn't usually happen in game. Even then, out numbering them only works so well. Some of it depends on who's actually out numbering them. Standard troopers or elite, but not even Jedi can block from all angles (dodge is likely though).

Some would also depend on the Jedi/Sith in question. There may be lots of Jedi/Sith but not all of them are these great warriors or even great Sith/Jedi. Many of them are likely just getting by, but being Jedi/Sith usually puts you ahead of many non Force users.

PC's however are suppossed to be the top. This goes for the non force using classes as well. They're the top of their fields, though in all likely hood they wouldn't do well against those Jedi/Sith around the PC level (or higher) without a team (not just one companion).

Though, I always got the feeling that part of the class stories was that they were supposed to be played out with all the other classes. A team of four, so they all got a bit of help anyways, while one person got the credit on it.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more...than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so *********** what." - Stephen Fry

EnragedFrutopia's Avatar


EnragedFrutopia
07.03.2015 , 06:48 PM | #15
I've thought about this for years. I just like to think that it isn't just as it seems, like a smuggler just being a good shot. I'd like to think that all of the non force users can perform feats of agility and acrobatics to dodge attacks from force users. The trooper commando is difficult to see doing any acrobatics but at least being agile enough to dodge and shoot, that assault cannon can be devastating while on the move, imagine trying to fight someone raining down bolts on you like that while throwing grenades at the same time or coming at you with a vibroblade. The easiest one to imagine being the most highly skilled in everything from shooting to melee combat is the agent, I like to think of them as being similar to Agent 47 from Hitman.
"Only through the projection of power do we bring order."
―Wilhuff Tarkin

mynxvablid's Avatar


mynxvablid
07.03.2015 , 10:43 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by Makrogai View Post
Han solo, which is arguably better than the smuggler you can play was allowed to freely shoot at darth vader, he just blocked the shots with his bare hands. Luke had like 1 week of training and completely wrecked Vader.
First off, Vader's hand was cybernetic, and his glove is armored with heavy leather. That and force techniques would have allowed him to absorb Han's blaster shots with relative ease.

Second off, Luke was on Dagobah longer than a week. In fact, it's closer to 3-6 months or more. Here's why ... The Falcon's hyperdrive was broken. He had to limp his way to Bespin at the best speed possible. He "piggy backed" on Captain Needa's star destroyed from Hoth to the Anoat System. From there, he limped at impulse speed to Bespin, which was the closest system he could find with the resources he needed to fix the Falcon. That trip would've taken him several weeks, if not a few months. Also, that explains why Boba Fett, Darth Vader, and the Empire were able to beat Han Solo to Cloud City, and have a command structure in place before the Falcon arrived. They had the weeks or months to prepare. Now, because Luke had all this time, he was undergoing a crash course, if you will, in the basics of the Jedi way. Yoda even had to trim down the lessons some just to teach Luke the bare minimum necessities. Luke later commented in one of the books set after Episode 6 that Yoda didn't teach him everything, but taught him barely enough to survive.

Quote: Originally Posted by Makrogai View Post
Meaning, Vader wasnt that strong, Han solo still got his *** kicked by him. What chance does the voidwolf (The player chracter) stand against the Emperor?
On the contrary, Vader was toying with Luke. His goal wasn't to kill Luke but to turn him to the dark side. As a result, he was holding back. He had Luke on the run the entire time on Cloud City. In their duel on the Second Death Star, there's another explanation as to why Luke did so well against Vader: The Emperor. Palpatine wanted Luke to replace Vader. In the Star Wars RCR RPG system, Sith Lords have a special ability at max level which allows them to provide a boost to an ally. Since Luke and Palpatine both shared a similar goal of wanting Vader defeated, that technically made them allies, and could've allowed Palpatine to provide Luke a bonus needed to stand up to Vader. In using SWTOR, you could say that Luke was being buffed/healed by the Emperor. Point being, on Cloud City, Vader was holding back, considerably.

Quote: Originally Posted by Makrogai View Post
Also trooper for example, Jace malcom (Trooper from 2nd Cinematic) didnt stand a chance against an apprentice/lord Malgus, Malgus is NOWHERE as powerful as the emperor (Sorry malgus, even though youre my favorite star wars character, you dont stand a chance) And jace still got destroyed. Satele shan didnt stand a chance either. Jace malcom is the best trooper alive.

Does that mean that the smuggler can beat satele shan 1v1? Does that mean the trooper can beat Satale shan? Satele shan lost twice to malgus. I may take game mechanics into too much consideration, but atleast give the classes different bosses like I dont know:

Gorla The Emperors Intelligence:

The emperors Intelligence is the highest ranking commander of the Emperor and none can match his cunning nor his tacticts. While incredibly hard to take down, its not impossible. An incredibly skillful Smuggler or a skilled trooper can probably bring him down with a tough and close fight
Actually, it's all about tactics. Look at Order 66. Here you had non-force users taking out Jedi, and successfully I will add. Why were they successful? They ganged up on the Jedi. They used bombs, mortars, grenades, and artillery against the Jedi. I doubt that the Scoundrel would be stupid enough to take on the Emperor by himself. In a realistic battle, the Scoundrel would be pulling out all stops, and having an army at his back. I've not played a scoundrel beyond the start of act 2, so I'm not sure how it goes beyond that point.

cool-dude's Avatar


cool-dude
07.04.2015 , 12:25 PM | #17
Story-wise, I think the only class that feels out of place is the smuggler. Smuggling is highly illegal in the Republic, and a space pirate isn't going to just be running around Republic space or territory. Note the cinematic video, The smuggler was arrested for smuggling inside Republic territory, and the Jedi were involved, because what he was smuggling were Sith artifacts. But, our smuggler can just run around coruscat without a single c-sec saying " HEY YOU STOP!" The smuggler feels like a class that was just put in the game just because.
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AlrikFassbauer's Avatar


AlrikFassbauer
07.04.2015 , 12:40 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
They mirrored the classes badly.

Trooper should be equivalent to Imperial Agent aka the pro military line.

While Smuggler should be equivalent to Bounty Hunter aka the freelance opportunists.
I fully agree.

By the way, the "Alderaan" cinematic video shows how a very, very good trooper might be able to ... - at least - ... keep a younger Darth Malgus at bay.

Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
Story-wise, I think the only class that feels out of place is the smuggler. Smuggling is highly illegal in the Republic, and a space pirate isn't going to just be running around Republic space or territory. Note the cinematic video, The smuggler was arrested for smuggling inside Republic territory, and the Jedi were involved, because what he was smuggling were Sith artifacts. But, our smuggler can just run around coruscat without a single c-sec saying " HEY YOU STOP!" The smuggler feels like a class that was just put in the game just because.
I agree here as well. I once even suggested an "Smuggling Event" - in which Smugglers could truly do what they'rebest at : smuggling ( scanner droids are even there on Taris ! ) and what did we get shortly afterwars ? The Bounty Hunt Event ... *bangs head against wall*

Karkais's Avatar


Karkais
07.05.2015 , 12:19 PM | #19
gosh darned Vader. How I hate people bringing him up. I honestly can't imagine him as particularly powerful..
Quote: Originally Posted by mynxvablid View Post
On the contrary, Vader was toying with Luke. His goal wasn't to kill Luke but to turn him to the dark side. As a result, he was holding back. He had Luke on the run the entire time on Cloud City.
Question: If Vader was so strong in the force, why didn't Vader simply grab Luke with the force when he leaped into Cloud City Central pit? Yoda lifted an X-Wing. One would think Vader would have been strong enough to float Luke.

Quote: Originally Posted by cool-dude View Post
Story-wise, I think the only class that feels out of place is the smuggler. Smuggling is highly illegal in the Republic, and a space pirate isn't going to just be running around Republic space or territory. Note the cinematic video, The smuggler was arrested for smuggling inside Republic territory, and the Jedi were involved, because what he was smuggling were Sith artifacts. But, our smuggler can just run around coruscat without a single c-sec saying " HEY YOU STOP!" The smuggler feels like a class that was just put in the game just because.
I agree, but I like having smugglers in the game. However, playing them doesn't feel at all like smugglers. Out of the classes, Smuggler feels the most 'meh' so far. (I havent played Jedi sage much). All they got going for them is cracking a few jokes in dialog. They don't smuggle(only one case during storyline iirc), they don't break laws, they don't hang with outlaws or do anything particularly adventurer-ish, and their motivation for being part of the game is questionable. They are the most watered down class in SWTOR I feel like.
"What is a Sith? Over time, the beliefs have changed, but one constant has remained. The imposition of one's will on the force, on the environment surrounding one, on the galaxy itself." - Darth Wyyrlok III

Halinalle's Avatar


Halinalle
07.05.2015 , 10:25 PM | #20
And going by how some players RP their Sith:
Emperor: "If you really think that you're true Sith then prove it by killing yourself."
Sith: "Gladly!"