Backstory

 

Long time ago, ive got an unpleasant comment for my tanking skill on my first character, a sith assassin tank, by that time i made her dps instead due to the fact that im having a hard time making the tanking works for here, as stayed dps until now, So i think to myself why now try to tank again since im already experience for more than a year now, so i created a jedi guardian, im finally doing great and having a blast with it.

 

So this is the question

Its all about TAUNT, some people say that DONT USE TAUNT AS AN OPENER AGGRO, ive heard and read this a lot BUT when i read something in REDDIT that TAUNT is also an AGGRO MULTIPLIER, if its really an Aggro Multiplier then TAUNT is really good as an opener, along with Force Sweep and Hilt Strike, you will generate more aggro since you got a multiplier buff.

 

Any thoughts?

You never use a taunt to open with however after you have used some of your abilities to gain agro then you taunt.

 

As you have said taunt is an agro multiplier so taunting first when you have 0 treat means 0*110% (or what ever the agro muliplier is) is 0.

 

Basically you want to use your highest threat abilities as an opening rotation then taunt then move onto your normal rotation.

 

However, depending on your group (if they significantly outgear you) you may find it harder to keep threat so make sure that you are guarding the highest DPSer (not the healer UNLESS they absolutely need it) and if your off tanking and wont be needed to taunt within the next 30secs or so you can also intercede (not sure what the jedi version is but it lowers threat) someone.

All that opening with Taunt will do is to make sure you have 6 seconds (4 GCDs) to build up enough threat over what the DPS+Heals do. Whereas, by doing a high threat opener THEN using Taunt, you will both multiply up your threat, and give yourself 4 GCDs worth of further threat moves before the rest of the group can possibly pull aggro.

 

In your case, I believe it would be: (from Stealth) Force Pull+Force Speed, Shock, approach, Wither, Thrash (+another Thrash if you didnt get a Proc), Shock, Recklessness+Force Lightning, then Taunt. If you have DPS that will manage to rip aggro from you before you start channeling the Force Lightning, you may need to throw the Taunt in after Wither.

 

 

(Juggernaut Intercede = Guardian Leap for Jedi Guardian).

Edited July 8, 2014 by LilyJedi

All that opening with Taunt will do is to make sure you have 6 seconds (4 GCDs) to build up enough threat over what the DPS+Heals do. Whereas, by doing a high threat opener THEN using Taunt, you will both multiply up your threat, and give yourself 4 GCDs worth of further threat moves before the rest of the group can possibly pull aggro.

 

In your case, I believe it would be: (from Stealth) Force Pull+Force Speed, Shock, approach, Wither, Thrash (+another Thrash if you didnt get a Proc), Shock, Recklessness+Force Lightning, then Taunt. If you have DPS that will manage to rip aggro from you before you start channeling the Force Lightning, you may need to throw the Taunt in after Wither.

 

 

(Juggernaut Intercede = Guardian Leap for Jedi Guardian).

 

 

Your rotation is situational at best and not entirely correct when it comes to shadow/assassins openers. The only debate on the opener on these forums is using slowtime before project or vice versa but chain adding taunts after the right globals is accepted. I direct you to the work of KBN on how to hold aggro on a shadow and how to lock the cycle with an aoe taunt. If the current fight does not allow you to lock your cycle with an aoe taunt there are various tips and tricks you can use by not even taunting. I used to hold aggro on thrasher without taunts as a shadow tank.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

Backstory

 

Long time ago, ive got an unpleasant comment for my tanking skill on my first character, a sith assassin tank, by that time i made her dps instead due to the fact that im having a hard time making the tanking works for here, as stayed dps until now, So i think to myself why now try to tank again since im already experience for more than a year now, so i created a jedi guardian, im finally doing great and having a blast with it.

 

So this is the question

Its all about TAUNT, some people say that DONT USE TAUNT AS AN OPENER AGGRO, ive heard and read this a lot BUT when i read something in REDDIT that TAUNT is also an AGGRO MULTIPLIER, if its really an Aggro Multiplier then TAUNT is really good as an opener, along with Force Sweep and Hilt Strike, you will generate more aggro since you got a multiplier buff.

 

Any thoughts?

 

This has been beaten to death many times. Never open with a Taunt. You multiply the threat on the target which is ZERO to become ZERO threat still.

 

Optimal opener for a Guardian assuming you don't need Saber Reflect or your AoE Taunt in the first part of the fight is as follows. (Blade Storm and Hilt Strike are interchangeable IMO)

 

Combat Focus > Force Leap > Force Sweep + Saber Reflect > Guardian Slash + Riposte > Hilt Strike > Blade Storm + Taunt > Master Strike > Riposte + Force Stasis > Sundering Strike + Challenging Call > Force Sweep > Guardian Slash + Riposte

 

So you do use a Taunt early on in the rotation, but it's not used as the opener. If you need your AoE taunt early on in a fight, delay your initial taunt until immediately after Master Strike.

This has been beaten to death many times. Never open with a Taunt. You multiply the threat on the target which is ZERO to become ZERO threat still.

 

Optimal opener for a Guardian assuming you don't need Saber Reflect or your AoE Taunt in the first part of the fight is as follows. (Blade Storm and Hilt Strike are interchangeable IMO)

 

Combat Focus > Force Leap > Force Sweep + Saber Reflect > Guardian Slash + Riposte > Hilt Strike > Blade Storm + Taunt > Master Strike > Riposte + Force Stasis > Sundering Strike + Challenging Call > Force Sweep > Guardian Slash + Riposte

 

So you do use a Taunt early on in the rotation, but it's not used as the opener. If you need your AoE taunt early on in a fight, delay your initial taunt until immediately after Master Strike.

 

 

 

**saber reflect does not generate threat if you do not get hit. There have been instances on my guardian when I activated reflect and my threat did not go up as expected. On the same boss, when he actually hit me through it, my threat moved up as it should. I am not an expert guardian tank because I find it very slow and fixed 'needs a target to leap' so I won't venture to advise on this class.

Saber reflect is a little wonky. The tool bar says you gain threat as soon as you activate it (which would imply that it works like an AOE taunt) but like the guy above says, you get nothing out of it if you aren't already being attacked. So if you have go-go DPS that pushes too fast, you're boned.

 

I always use mine after a taunt. Probably overcautious of me, but nothing stings worse than a wasted Saber reflect.

Edited July 8, 2014 by sanctified

TAUNT multiplier come from your current aggro generated, starting taunt at as opener will actually do less threat, ok i understand now, ty guys

Never open with a Taunt.

 

Amen.

No you should not taunt. Log you fights and check TPS for the first 20 sec and you will be convinced by mathematics.

As every rule there are some exceptions ofc.

Edited July 9, 2014 by jade_de_aguilera

For most SM or HM groups you dont have to open with a taunt because dps will start their skills when the tank opens the fight.

 

For progression raids you have to start with a taunt on most bossfights because the dps will precast and their attack will hit the boss when the tank engages the fight. This means when the fight start the tank already has far less threat than the dps. Therefore you have to taunt.

 

Mathematically seen it would be wise to delay taunt as much as possible. However this is mostly not too good because when the boss starts to move because a dps got aggro it is a tankfail. Every unneeded movement of the boss is basically a dps loss ( atleast for meleedps) and therefore it should be avoided.

 

Btw. Saber reflect always generates aggro even when not reflecting. If i remember it correctly it generates 3.5k threat on all enemys within range. If dmg is reflected it will generate far more.

 

And again : Taunt does not multiply your threat. It sets you on #1 of the aggrolist + 10%. Meaning : When a dps has 120k threat and you have 10k threat and you taunt your threat will be 132k. Even when you are #1 on the aggrolist the taunt will add 10% to your threat. Meaning : A taunt is never wasted regardless on its timing because you never start with 0 threat. Another thing about the taunt is that it bind the enemy to you for 6 sec which is especially important in the first 30seconds of the bossfight.

 

This is mostly for progression raids. For other operations/raids dps wont require taunts or even good rotations from the tanks.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Methoxa

Btw. Saber reflect always generates aggro even when not reflecting. If i remember it correctly it generates 3.5k threat on all enemys within range. If dmg is reflected it will generate far more.

 

It generates exactly as much threat as a Shadow's pull (~8.5k) but only does so if you activate it after you've taken a hit. For example, leaping in at Nefra you would need to delay the Saber Reflect until after the first Twin Attack because it simply wouldn't work. There's a few posts about this already so I won't go into too much more detail.

For most SM or HM groups you dont have to open with a taunt because dps will start their skills when the tank opens the fight.

 

For progression raids you have to start with a taunt on most bossfights because the dps will precast and their attack will hit the boss when the tank engages the fight. This means when the fight start the tank already has far less threat than the dps. Therefore you have to taunt.

 

As a shadow, our first hit is 8.5k threat, which means the threshold for pulling is 11k. If you're dealing with a precast Orbital + Ambush landing at the exact same time an instant after your Pull with both critting, then the DPS will pull right there for sure. However, if you can stay in control until the second GCD, it's pretty smooth sailing for the following two GCDs until you get to your taunt. In other words:

 

Pull > Wither > Shock > Discharge + Taunt

 

That should hold agro against any precast whatsoever unless the precasters are getting perfect crits. (which does happen!) The only variation comes from accuracy, and that's what adrenals are for.

 

Mathematically seen it would be wise to delay taunt as much as possible. However this is mostly not too good because when the boss starts to move because a dps got aggro it is a tankfail. Every unneeded movement of the boss is basically a dps loss ( atleast for meleedps) and therefore it should be avoided.

 

Yeah, the first few GCDs are always pins-and-needles. The longer you can delay your taunt, the better, but the sooner you get your taunt out, the more consistent.

 

And again : Taunt does not multiply your threat. It sets you on #1 of the aggrolist + 10%. Meaning : When a dps has 120k threat and you have 10k threat and you taunt your threat will be 132k. Even when you are #1 on the aggrolist the taunt will add 10% to your threat. Meaning : A taunt is never wasted regardless on its timing because you never start with 0 threat. Another thing about the taunt is that it bind the enemy to you for 6 sec which is especially important in the first 30seconds of the bossfight.

 

Actually, for most bosses, it's 30%. This is because the 10% vs 30% decision is based on how far you are from the exact center of the boss. If you're within 4m of the centerpoint of the boss, it will be 10%; if not, it's 30%. For everything except normal-sized humanoid bosses, to stand within 4m of the centerpoint, you would basically need to be well INSIDE the character model.

 

This is mostly for progression raids. For other operations/raids dps wont require taunts or even good rotations from the tanks.

 

Yeah, when I tank non-nightmare stuff, I generally just sleep through my opener and taunt only if things go south.

 

And again : Taunt does not multiply your threat. It sets you on #1 of the aggrolist + 10%. Meaning : When a dps has 120k threat and you have 10k threat and you taunt your threat will be 132k. Even when you are #1 on the aggrolist the taunt will add 10% to your threat.

 

This is exactly what multiplying threat means It takes the top threat and multiplies by 10%(aka, 1.1) or 30%(aka 1.3).

Pull > Wither > Shock > Discharge + Taunt

 

If you mean pull ->shock->wither->discharge+taunt then we agree on the opener. I find that project gives a greater benefit than slowtime when I run with 4k+ groups. . Granted, some would argue that slowtime and the associated 5% damage reduction is a must have from the start, I disagree as 1 global is not a life and death scenario in this game, especially when the raid is 100% hp and you got 3 hots and two healers pampering you.

If you mean pull ->shock->wither->discharge+taunt then we agree on the opener. I find that project gives a greater benefit than slowtime when I run with 4k+ groups. . Granted, some would argue that slowtime and the associated 5% damage reduction is a must have from the start, I disagree as 1 global is not a life and death scenario in this game, especially when the raid is 100% hp and you got 3 hots and two healers pampering you.

 

What are you gonna do though if chain shock procs and both shocks crit, eating up your Force Potency charges? Suddenly all your extra threat from Slow Time critting is gone.

Thats why slow time comes first.

Edited July 10, 2014 by TACeMossie

What are you gonna do though if chain shock procs and both shocks crit, eating up your Force Potency charges? Suddenly all your extra threat from Slow Time critting is gone.

Thats why slow time comes first.

 

 

Absolutely nothing Sir, as potency should not be used at start of your opener. Potency needs to line up when you have 3 stacks of harnessed shadows to give you potency+tk+aoetaunt. Burning your force potency in the beginning on project and slowtime is like pissing yourself in 40 celsius and calling it a nice cooling rain .

 

Smart shadows open like this :

 

---------------------------------------------

1. PW

2. Stealth

3. Force Speed+Force Pull

4. (*optional power adrenal) project

5. Slowtime

6. Force Breach+single taunt

7. DS for particle acceleration

8. Project

9. (force potency, optional power adrenal if not used in the beginning) 3x HS for TK + aoe taunt

10. Slowtime (one potency stack left)

11. Project.

-----------------------------------------------------

*this is not off dulfy, by the time she put it on dulfy, 6 months of arguing lapsed where KBN and I were 'taunting one another' on the best opener, you can probably find the threads. If memory serves, he ran the math on this and I provided feedback with logs / threat but also experience on how I keep aggro and nobody can pull.

**there are triple potency stacks scenarios that work and makes it even better but this is not the purpose of this thread.

 

Regarding your 'that is why slowtime comes first' I revert you to my previous post where I iterate damage reduction.I do agree on slowtime different threat modifier.

 

 

Good tanks see the big picture .

Edited July 10, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

If you mean pull ->shock->wither->discharge+taunt then we agree on the opener. I find that project gives a greater benefit than slowtime when I run with 4k+ groups. . Granted, some would argue that slowtime and the associated 5% damage reduction is a must have from the start, I disagree as 1 global is not a life and death scenario in this game, especially when the raid is 100% hp and you got 3 hots and two healers pampering you.

 

I meant Shock > Wither, I just typed the wrong thing. :-) The reason to use Shock first actually has nothing to do with the second GCD (Wither does more threat!). It's to ensure that your sixth GCD can be Shock, rather than Thrash or Maul. This also ensures that your Taunt perfectly covers your first Force Lightning. Flipping the two generates slightly more snap threat, but you're going to lose agro during the lull in your rotation pre-FL.

 

I'm pretty sure we actually use the same opener, Leafy. :-)

 

Pull > Shock > Wither > Discharge + Taunt > Thrash > Shock > Recklessness + Force Lightning + Taunt > Wither > Shock > …

Edited July 10, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

I meant Shock > Wither, I just typed the wrong thing. :-) The reason to use Shock first actually has nothing to do with the second GCD (Wither does more threat!). It's to ensure that your sixth GCD can be Shock, rather than Thrash or Maul. This also ensures that your Taunt perfectly covers your first Force Lightning. Flipping the two generates slightly more snap threat, but you're going to lose agro during the lull in your rotation pre-FL.

 

 

No worries, as I said in my previous post, we have had our share of boxing on the optimal opener. It happens, just like me leaping on Brontes on the 6 finger phase when i was not supposed too. *full sentinel mode*

I've seen talk recently of tanks using adrenals in their opener. I understand the theory (I also remember KeyboardNinja tearing into somebody quite some time ago for their usage of a surge adrenal in their Assassin opener) but am wondering on the specifics.

 

Power, surge or accuracy; when's the best time to use one, and are there any fights where it's a definite no go due to the loss of a defensive cooldown?

 

Mostly interested in Assassin, but info for other classes wouldn't be unwelcome.

Amen.

 

not always amen mate.

 

Some operation bosses you can safely openup with a taunt. Take in mind the dread palace bosses are based on HM experience. While DF is NiM knowledge (personal and/or theorized).

 

TL;DR: When you can't afford to lose aggro and when you have a co-tank ready to taunt too its perfectly viable to openup with a taunt as 1st gcd or at least 2nd/3rd.

 

Nefra = open up with taunt, followed by AoE taunt. Your co-tank will have 3 stacks by than and will be forced to taunt ;-)

Draxus = if you use 2 tanks its okey to openup with taunts but not the best idea. Its however not bad to do.

Grobbie = possible since you get roared on pretty fast regardless

C zero = Safe to use tauntfluff but not the best idea. Again not bad to do

Brontes = Isn't it the whole idea to taunt her in phase 2 when she appears? I rather not risk here spraying the dps and healers.

Bestia = feel free doesnt matter at all. Unless you manage to not get the stacks you have to swap before you can get to your 2nd or 3rd taunt

Tyrans = openup with tauntfluffing to have the least chance of dps overaggro'ing you

Calphy = AoE taunt fluffing wont hurt but not really needed unless your dps are aggrokings/queens

Raptus = Opening up with a taunt may be a good thing since he might not be on you if you have dot specced DPS.

Council = On calphy I'm alwyas opening up with a taunt or right after i forcepulled him. I have a combat sent with me who often has his stars aligned. My single taunt is always ready for the tankswap

 

EDIT: just to be clear. The above isn't optimal and openers like KBN and leafy provided are always better if those will keep your aggro. The above is purely based on whats possible to do and why its not such a big no no as some people suggest.

Edited July 11, 2014 by fire-breath

I've seen talk recently of tanks using adrenals in their opener. I understand the theory (I also remember KeyboardNinja tearing into somebody quite some time ago for their usage of a surge adrenal in their Assassin opener) but am wondering on the specifics.

 

Power, surge or accuracy; when's the best time to use one, and are there any fights where it's a definite no go due to the loss of a defensive cooldown?

 

Mostly interested in Assassin, but info for other classes wouldn't be unwelcome.

 

Surge really isn't worth using. None of the tank openers are lacking in damage. In fact, assuming nothing ever misses, none of the tank openers are really lacking in anything. The problem is that, at sub-110% accuracy, we do miss quite a lot in the opener. I don't like fights having any element of RNG, so that's the element I want to remove if I can.

 

When I open with an adrenal, I use accuracy. I do this on Bestia (because monster control is very important), Tyrans (because Tyrans agro is insanely vital) and…that's about it. I don't bother on Calphayus, because I'm keeping him almost perma-debuffed with taunts anyway. Raptus is sort of sketchy in the opening moments, but again perma-debuffing solves a lot of problems. I've thought about it for council, but I really haven't had any trouble controlling my boss, so I save the cooldown so I can use an absorb adrenal in the first phase. I would like to be able to use an absorb adrenal in Bestia's first phase, but monster control is more important. I wouldn't use an accuracy adrenal if I were tanking the doubled adds.

 

As for DF, you could use an accuracy adrenal on Grob'thok, but it's really not worth doing it on any other fight. If you go back to older Nightmare content, Writhing Horror, Kephess and TfB might be worth adrenaling, along with Dash'roode, Titan, Thrasher and Styrak.

Honestly it depends on the fight. Some fights it's absolutely imperative that you turn the boss away from the raid ASAP. Also if you know that you're going to tank swap a few seconds after getting the boss then the 6 seconds taunt gives you can be enough. The easiest example for this is Brontes in HM when she comes down after the lightning tentacle phase. 2 seconds or so after she is targetable she will do a 4 second channel which will do a huge amount of damage to the raid if you let it. When I tank this I'll just taunt her because then she will face me, to the cast and give me 4 stacks of her debuff then I'll just let the other tank take her while I deal with Kephess. Most of the time everyone else here is right but sometimes when it's absolutely imperative you get instant aggro on a new enemy mid fight then you can taunt before everything else

Honestly it depends on the fight. Some fights it's absolutely imperative that you turn the boss away from the raid ASAP. Also if you know that you're going to tank swap a few seconds after getting the boss then the 6 seconds taunt gives you can be enough. The easiest example for this is Brontes in HM when she comes down after the lightning tentacle phase. 2 seconds or so after she is targetable she will do a 4 second channel which will do a huge amount of damage to the raid if you let it. When I tank this I'll just taunt her because then she will face me, to the cast and give me 4 stacks of her debuff then I'll just let the other tank take her while I deal with Kephess. Most of the time everyone else here is right but sometimes when it's absolutely imperative you get instant aggro on a new enemy mid fight then you can taunt before everything else

 

 

This post is not entirely correct, hence someone who is not aware of the way Brontes works may take this as accurate. First and foremost, Brontes is affected by healing aggro and if you pay attention, you will see that when she spawns in the middle, she will target one or both healers. She will cleave everyone in proximity to the healer / healers who have aggro. This happens because until that phase, the healing aggro, which is global on all NPCs, attracts her attention.

 

 

If you open with a taunt on brontes, with a group of people who actually do damage, you will burn the second taunt as soon as the first expires and if you resist attacks, they will pull again. Your management in this case is poor and I never open with a taunt on her as we know who will get the first 2 stacks in our group. You have failed to mention that when your group derps, you can't get to her instantly as she is isolated from lasers so a smart group would abuse healing aggro and make sure the person who has it is alone. If you are going to taunt her from 30m and jump on her when the lasers permit it then again you did not think it through fully.

 

 

I would also like you to apply the same methodology on Kephess, in NiM, where when he spawns he is on one of your healers. Please instantly taunt and see what happens . A good tank sees the whole picture and prevents nastier things happening than instantly taunting a boss and then losing aggro, having nothing to pick it back.

 

On a final note, if you think I am easily phased by a dps shadow, infiltration spec, who opens with over 20k by the time I reach my third global and I taunt with panic attacks you are mistaken. A tank's opener is optimal if done right and taunts have no place in the first globals.

 

 

At the end of the day, people can read this topic, ignore everything and continue doing what they want. The world will not end if you opt to 'hold aggro' by spamming taunts. Some of us in this thread portray another way of tanking where the message is : taunts are important but tanks have the right tools* to hold aggro when played according to your damage dealer composition.

 

 

*exceptions apply of course where NPCs are programmed to drop aggro on a tank.

Edited July 12, 2014 by Leafy_Bug

This post is not entirely correct, hence someone who is not aware of the way Brontes works may take this as accurate. First and foremost, Brontes is affected by healing aggro and if you pay attention, you will see that when she spawns in the middle, she will target one or both healers. She will cleave everyone in proximity to the healer / healers who have aggro. This happens because until that phase, the healing aggro, which is global on all NPCs, attracts her attention.

 

 

If you open with a taunt on brontes, with a group of people who actually do damage, you will burn the second taunt as soon as the first expires and if you resist attacks, they will pull again. Your management in this case is poor and I never open with a taunt on her as we know who will get the first 2 stacks in our group. You have failed to mention that when your group derps, you can't get to her instantly as she is isolated from lasers so a smart group would abuse healing aggro and make sure the person who has it is alone. If you are going to taunt her from 30m and jump on her when the lasers permit it then again you did not think it through fully.

 

 

I would also like you to apply the same methodology on Kephess, in NiM, where when he spawns he is on one of your healers. Please instantly taunt and see what happens . A good tank sees the whole picture and prevents nastier things happening than instantly taunting a boss and then losing aggro, having nothing to pick it back.

 

On a final note, if you think I am easily phased by a dps shadow, infiltration spec, who opens with over 20k by the time I reach my third global and I taunt with panic attacks you are mistaken. A tank's opener is optimal if done right and taunts have no place in the first globals.

 

 

At the end of the day, people can read this topic, ignore everything and continue doing what they want. The world will not end if you opt to 'hold aggro' by spamming taunts. Some of us in this thread portray another way of tanking where the message is : taunts are important but tanks have the right tools* to hold aggro when played according to your damage dealer composition.

 

 

*exceptions apply of course where NPCs are programmed to drop aggro on a tank.

 

I'm not sure if you read what I wrote but I know that I won't have aggro for more than 6 seconds so the taunt is more than enough. It's not like I stop my rotation but I need aggro on her the moment she spawns not taunting wipes us