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Obi-Wan .VS. Anakin


LordMerrick

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Obi-Wan basically played Anakin through most of that fight. The whole philosophy behind form 3 is the block, deflect, and give ground until the opponent slips up and presents an opportunity. There's another aspect to it though that Kenobi effectively uses on Anakin at Mustafar and that is to exploit the opponent's aggression in subtle but advantageous ways.

 

Notice how Kenobi knocks Anakin's saber into the control that opens the door to the outside of the mining facility giving Obi-Wan more ground to retreat to? How he uses Anakin's aggressive drive in trying to push his lightsaber into Obi-Wan's face as momentum to flip Anakin and thus get out of the hold? Kenobi uses the environment and his opponent's state of mind against him and Anakin in his all consuming rage didn't see it until it was too late.

 

I can't wait to rewatch these scenes with this in mind. Maybe I'm an Obi-Wan "Fanboy" (I don't care, what's not to love??), but this makes perfect sense and just deepens my admiration for the guy.

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Anakin had more talent

Obi-Wan had more skill

 

Wrong

 

Anakin had more talent and skill.

Obi-Wan had more experience.

 

To put it into gamer terms.. Anakin's starter stats were the highest of any jedi or sith that had ever lived, but he was still low level, and while he had gained many levels under obi-wans tutelage, Obi-Wan still had a very large level gap and so that + temporary offensive buff from being on a ledge allowed him the win. Anakin was dumb and should have max leveled first, then he could have beat anyone.

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''It's over Anakin, i have the high ground!''

 

Ah, the use of reversed Duno Möch. Making your opponent doupt himself or distract e.t.c.

 

Basicly, one could say that he taunted Anakin into rage(purpously or not?) which caused him to enter a state of rage where he was not thinking, obvously he didn't want to, he probubly wanted to make it clear that if he makes his move he is about to do, he will loose. A warning. Whilst this had the opposing effect. Anakin, being already in a great deal of rage gives into it fully, maybe he believed the taunting was a way to say that Anakin was weak or anything(?), he wouldn't stand it so he will show the evil Obi-Wan, and he might believeing his power is so great that Obi won't succeed in his tactics the arrogant he is, he doesn't think clearly, he underrestimates his opponent, and Obi-Wan is forced to make his incapaciting move on Anakin who is charging right for him.

 

Maybe he was becoming so arrogant because of the Dark Side that he believed that it doesn't matter what Obi-Wan will do, he will beat him still?

 

Anakin is so filled with rage that he basicly doesn't think clearly about what he is doing, that coupled with his arrogant attitude, his way of thinking he is the best and the effect of Obi-Wan's (failed) Duno Möch caused him to enter a state of rage that leaves him vulnerable, an weak point Obi-Wan exploits.

 

Notice him Darth Vader doesn't jump after Luke in the earlier movies and instead walks up to him closely and also throws his Lightsaber instead of jumping against him? He learned his lesson.

 

Anakin would though had won in the long run i believe. Imagine if he had been allowed to learn Juyo form instead and not forbidden to learn it.

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I dont know if it was mentioned (not gonna read) but Obi-wan also had the more suited lightsaber style for this kind of combat, and he was a master of that style (name escapes me).

 

EDIT: read the thread, Soresu that was it. My post now has no purpose, people on this page stated it much more clearly.

Edited by Durzaka
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Perhaps fighting someone is a complex and highly contextual situation, and not simply a matter of who in your mind has more power. Life is not Dragonball.

 

 

Oh gee, very insightful, astute, and sarcastic of you. Why are you playing this silly game? Isnt it beneath you?

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First of all Dooku incapacitated both Jedi temporarily but chose to eliminate Obi Wan and deal with Anakin. Perhaps to eliminate the great long term threat? Also, Obi Wan was attacking from the front in that scene and Anakin was attacking from behind when both Jedi were thrown to the ground. Obi Wan was in the more dangerous position. Maybe the defensive master was trying to work in tandem with the more offensive minded jedi to eliminate the sith lord?

 

Also, Anakin was obviously conflicted in the episode 3 battle with Obi Wan. Clearly, there was still good in him. He was definitely not fighting with a clear mind. Obi Wan was fighting with a single minded determination to end the destruction Anakin was causing. There is a huge different in the frames of mind between the two jedis at that point.

 

So was Anakin overall a better fighter? Probably. Was Obi Wan the better Jedi overall? I would say so. In contests of skill does the better team/player/fighter always win? Of course not. Many factors play into who is victorious and who is defeated other than skill alone.

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I dont know if it was mentioned (not gonna read) but Obi-wan also had the more suited lightsaber style for this kind of combat, and he was a master of that style (name escapes me).

 

EDIT: read the thread, Soresu that was it. My post now has no purpose, people on this page stated it much more clearly.

 

Obi-Wan uses Soresu. Even though it is powerfull when a master uses it (can potentionally allmost make the user allmost invincible) a master in Soresu can still be defeated just like any other form used to it's maximum. It is said that the ferocity form Juyo which is the most dangerous form can break a master Soresu user's defences.

 

EDIT: i meant Destroy in ''break''.

Edited by Lord_Butcher
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Obi-Wan uses Soresu. Even though it is powerfull when a master uses it (can potentionally allmost make the user allmost invincible) a master in Soresu can still be defeated just like any other form used to it's maximum. It is said that the ferocity form Juyo which is the most dangerous form can break a master Soresu user's defences.

 

EDIT: i meant Destroy in ''break''.

 

 

Anakin didnt use Juyo though, he used Form V: SHien/Djem So

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First of all Dooku incapacitated both Jedi temporarily but chose to eliminate Obi Wan and deal with Anakin. Perhaps to eliminate the great long term threat? Maybe the defensive master was trying to work in tandem with the more offensive minded jedi to eliminate the sith lord?

 

 

I dont understand what any of this has to do with anything? The fact remains that anakin defeated dooku, regardless of who dooku considered to be the greater threat. And obi-wan was neutralized regardless of what strategy he was utilizing. If not for Ani, obi-wan would have been dead right there........**** yet again***.

 

 

Also, Anakin was obviously conflicted in the episode 3 battle with Obi Wan. Clearly, there was still good in him. He was definitely not fighting with a clear mind. Obi Wan was fighting with a single minded determination to end the destruction Anakin was causing. There is a huge different in the frames of mind between the two jedis at that point.

 

 

People keep saying this as if Obi-wan wasnt conflicted. He told yoda that he flat out refused to kill Anakin. He begged anakin not to jump because he didnt want to have to cut anakin. He tried to give away the advantage that ultimately saved his life. I would go so far as to say that Obi-wan was even more conflicted than Anakin. Ani had no problem killing dozens of innocent children, and had managed to convince himself that obi wan stole padme away from him. He also believed Obi-wan had come to kill him. He said as much to padme. Ani was in a blind rage while Obi-wan remained cool headed. I dont understand why everyone shows so very little recognition of the conflict within obi-wan.

 

In contests of skill does the better team/player/fighter always win? Of course not. Many factors play into who is victorious and who is defeated other than skill alone.

 

I completely agree with you. I am trying to root out what those factors are :D

As far as I can see the best answer is twofold: that Obi-wan knew anakin inside out, and that obi-wan played a very defensive and patient game, knowing it would not take ani long to get impatient and make a huge mistake. That and the fact that somebody needed to put ani in a vader suit and the only jedi left were obi and yoda....so from a writer's perspective there was no other possible way things could have played out. :D

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LordButcher I thought Windu's Vaapad was the most dangerous/aggresive form? Not being argumentative just curious

 

Vapaad and Juyo are practically the same. Vapaad is quicker and more of a style of all fighting.

 

Edit: Also keep in mind there isn't any best form. They all have a different purpose, and their best at serving their purpose.

Edited by BrandonSM
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LordButcher I thought Windu's Vaapad was the most dangerous/aggresive form? Not being argumentative just curious

 

Vaapaad is actually a prototype lightsaber form that was being developed by Mace Windu and was actually based off of Juyo which is a Sith form. Of the fully established Jedi lightsaber forms Djem So/Shien is the most aggressive as its basis to overwhelm the opponent by countering their attacks with sheer strength i.e. knocking away the opponent's blade and quickly countering. All of the established forms have a kind of specialty of sorts.

 

Form I Shi-icho: Ease of use as it focuses on basic strikes and guards and doesn't go out of its way to be fancy.

 

Form II Makashi: Finesse based combat focusing on minimalist effort to execute parries, deflections, disarms, and striking at openings. It's good against Soresu because Soresu relys on tiring out the opponent/forcing them to overextend themselves which is the opposite of the Makashi philosophy.

 

Form III Soresu: A defensive form wherein users rely on technique, situational/environmental awareness and agility to tire the opponent out or force them to reveal a weakness to strike at. It's very good against brute force but not against finesse and usually requires the user to have some ground for strategic retreats.

 

Form IV Ataru: An acrobatic form that places emphasis on flashy moves to distract an opponent and attacking from odd angles such as with mid-air strikes to catch an opponent off guard. It's main flaw is that you need a fair bit of room to perform all of those mid-air/sweeping maneuvers but to someone like Yoda who is a master of this form that's easy to come by.

 

Form V Djem So/Shien: An aggressive style that focuses on reprisals. Users become masters of counterattacks both against saber strikes and blaster shots. The style's main weakness is that the user often has to fully commit themselves to offense leaving them with exploitable openings.

 

Form VI Niman: A balanced jack of all trades style whose focus is that it really has no focus. Against a user of a style with a focus Niman users often get overwhelmed when that area of expertise comes into play. Niman's strength is that it can a variety of situations and it's near impossible to really surprise the few masters of the style unless their opponent gets lucky/extermely creative.

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I believe the fight ended in an incredibly lame way, which made little sense.

 

Also, claiming that Obi Wan won because he had taught Anakin and knew his moves goes both ways, seeing as how Anakin would also know Obi's moves.

 

Firstly, I think Lucas handled Obi Wan poorly, which is why the last fight made little sense, consdiering how easily Obi Wan was defeated by Dooku both times. This has nothing to do with lore, or anything, just Lucas not having his head straight on.

 

Secondly, I believe that Anakin's fall to the darkside caused upheaval in his emotions to a point where pure rage took over and thereby introducing a lack of discipline. Also, in his heart, Anakin knew that Obi Wan had nothing to do with his fall to the dark side, and if you ask me, showed regrets of his fall even then, realising he had done something wrong.

 

By attacking Obi Wan he was not trying to convince Obi that he was doing the right thing, but trying to convince himself. He didn't have his whole heart in it.

 

NOW! Obi on the other hand, was more experienced, and knew better how to control his emotions, even anger. He did this in episode 1 vs maul, and I believe that he was driven by emotion in the fight vs anakin as well.

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Firstly, I think Lucas handled Obi Wan poorly, which is why the last fight made little sense, consdiering how easily Obi Wan was defeated by Dooku both times. This has nothing to do with lore, or anything, just Lucas not having his head straight on.

l.

 

It actually does have everything to do with lore, Dooku's style completely dominates Obi-Wan's.

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It actually does have everything to do with lore, Dooku's style completely dominates Obi-Wan's.

 

I dont think the lightsaber styles even existed in the movies, just an EU product. It was either you were a better lightsaber duelist or werent, which was what i liked about it.

 

Not in the EU where one guy cant beat someone in particular because of the the lightsaber form/style they are using. A good example is Mace Windu with Vaapad where "apparently" most light-side duelists would beat him but he would completely decimate a sith due to his saber style.

 

But Lucas stated he is one of the most powerful jedi and able to beat Palpatine without ever bringing up Vaapad. Now that I think of it I dont think he has ever brought up any of the differnet lightsaber forms.

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For those claiming that Anakin was a padawan when faced off Obi Wan. No he wasnt. Not in skill.

 

In EU taking place in the Clone Wars cartoons, Anakin along with Asoka took many solo missions that they completed successfully.

 

 

Anakin's battle skills where highly honed long before he faced off Obi Wan in Mustafar.

 

 

Why he lost then? Script.

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haha. how i love those nerd discussions :D

(i really do,i read every post ;o )

i dont know as much of the Lore as some here do, but i do train with swords (wood ofc) myself and i can say that far lesser advantages then the high ground can cause you to take a beating. ( like your blade tip is +-5 cm too high or low)

plus i can say that it is really annoying to fight someone with incredible strong defense waiting for your moves/mistakes to counter you (only did those without weapons tbh)

 

and sometimes a weaker foe can win a fight (due to over/underestimation of the enemy, luck, better tactics, more experience, more insight to the style of the enemy,hesitation)

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