This is a mainstay concept of all decent MMO PvP. Unfortunately, the SWTOR devs don't understand this. I would love to see a dev answer this question:

What percentage of time do you expect to be controlled during a normal warzone?

15% of the time? 20% of the time?

It's more like 90% of the time right now. In a WZ, you are constantly under some kind of control ... stun, mez, root, slow, push, pull.

I realize BW does not care about PvP and will not put the time into the effort of fixing all the problems the game has, but slow and root should be added to the Resolve system. This will allow melee a chance to have a little bit of time in a WZ not under some kind of controlling influence.

Every class has plentyful tools to deal with things like this. Compared to other games alike I feel like there is a lot of room for counterplay. If you think the way it is is too much, I think PvP might just not be your thing.

Because PvP is not about dealing the most damage, or the most healing, or anything like that.

PvP is about taking control of other people. You beat them not by pressing your buttons harder and doing 5 more dps than the next guy. You beat them by outsmarting them on control related matters.

As such, it is your GOAL to keep enemy players under at least some sort effect as close to 100% of the time as possible. Of course there are plentyful rules and exceptions, but for that I would direct you to Nelaa's guide at the top of this forum section.

Every class has plentyful tools to deal with things like this. Compared to other games alike I feel like there is a lot of room for counterplay. If you think the way it is is too much, I think PvP might just not be your thing.

 

Because PvP is not about dealing the most damage, or the most healing, or anything like that.

PvP is about taking control of other people. You beat them not by pressing your buttons harder and doing 5 more dps than the next guy. You beat them by outsmarting them on control related matters.

 

As such, it is your GOAL to keep enemy players under at least some sort effect as close to 100% of the time as possible. Of course there are plentyful rules and exceptions, but for that I would direct you to Nelaa's guide at the top of this forum section.

No, the system is broken and needs to be fixed.

The classic "im not the problem, you're the problem" response.

And yet you wonder why it is that PvP is so difficult for you

If you refuse to learn then PvP is clearly not for you. I think we can end the thread now seeing as you don't want to consider the fact that you might just not be very good.

Every class has plentyful tools to deal with things like this. Compared to other games alike I feel like there is a lot of room for counterplay. If you think the way it is is too much, I think PvP might just not be your thing.

 

Because PvP is not about dealing the most damage, or the most healing, or anything like that.

PvP is about taking control of other people. You beat them not by pressing your buttons harder and doing 5 more dps than the next guy. You beat them by outsmarting them on control related matters.

 

As such, it is your GOAL to keep enemy players under at least some sort effect as close to 100% of the time as possible. Of course there are plentyful rules and exceptions, but for that I would direct you to Nelaa's guide at the top of this forum section.

^^^^^This!

I wouldn't be opposed to a white bar lasting longer. And some effects, like Low Slash, need to add more resolve.

You're saying that because it annoys whatever class you like to play the most.

If you played an Assassin yourself you wouldn't be saying that.

You're saying that because it annoys whatever class you like to play the most.

If you played an Assassin yourself you wouldn't be saying that.

I play all classes, so put your psychology degree back in your pocket. The problem with Low Slash is that it behaves like a stun instead of a mezz. If it broke on damage instantly like awe or flash, no prob. But you are stuck in the animation (or just stunned, whatever BW intended) for a solid 2 seconds.

So, again, I'd be ok with increased white bar or more resolve generated in general but especially from specific abilities.

Assassin/Shadow and Smug/Operative "mains" should be "White Barred" from commenting on CC duration conversations...Of course they are in this thread defending CC duration. Top 2 duelist classes in the game have stealth and heavy CC...Do the math.

When I randomly decide I want to goof off in PvP and have fun I jump on my Juggernaut, When I want a challenge I jump on my Sorc healer, When I want to pick all my fights and dominate other players I jump on my Shadow...I don't even roll w/ Operative I feel like it's cheating.

I play all classes, so put your psychology degree back in your pocket. The problem with Low Slash is that it behaves like a stun instead of a mezz. If it broke on damage instantly like awe or flash, no prob. But you are stuck in the animation (or just stunned, whatever BW intended) for a solid 2 seconds.

 

So, again, I'd be ok with increased white bar or more resolve generated in general but especially from specific abilities.

Yeah with "playing a class" i didn't mean having one at level 75, mate.

I meant knowing to play them well.

I also have one of every class and I don't experience any issues with crowd control on any of them. I'd sooner argue theres too many variants of immunity for it.

So again, this is a player problem. Not a game problem.

Personally I feel there are a few too many effects that don’t affect the resolve bar enough or at all.

But at the same time there are also a few too many passive immunities or utilities these days that some classes have too much of.

I do think this games Devs have been lazy since launch with stuns, mez, slow, roots etc. Each expansion they seem to knee jerk from stun meta back to mobility meta back to stun meta. There really has never been any real balance here and it’s like an arms race going backwards and forwards.

Each expansion or meta change, they get lazier as they seem to spread them more between classes so that every class has every other classes abilities. As an example, just about every class is a speed demon or has speed buffs these days. Where as it used to just be limited.

And giving snipers holo-locate is just the latest example of lazy developement and no imagination. Too many classes have lost their uniqueness due to Bioware giving the same or similar abilities to other classes.

Yeah with "playing a class" i didn't mean having one at level 75, mate.

I meant knowing to play them well.

 

I also have one of every class and I don't experience any issues with crowd control on any of them. I'd sooner argue theres too many variants of immunity for it.

 

So again, this is a player problem. Not a game problem.

This is hilarious. Let's all bow to the only good pvper in this forum.

Bad news for your crap take on this, bud. I pvp on all classes. At 75. That's how you get gud. So I can see it from all perspectives. All I said was that resolve could be a little longer.

Not only did you not address what I said about Low Slash not behaving consistently, but you turned around into a strawman. *clap clap*

Come to Star Forge my stronghold and prove that it's just a "player problem."

Congrats I know people that have pvpd in this game for years and still can't play for ****.

Sin is already in a crappy state at the moment, not any sort of nerf is warranted without any alternative changes to go with it. Using Low Slash only to break it instantly thereafter (thats the only way to get the effect you describe) is not a tactic good sins employ on anything but 1v1's. Its entirely irrelevant to the meta of PvP.

And sure, if you provide me with the cartel coins for a back and forth transfer I'll gladly indulge in your little challenge.

Congrats I know people that have pvpd in this game for years and still can't play for ****.

 

Sin is already in a crappy state at the moment, not any sort of nerf is warranted without any alternative changes to go with it. Using Low Slash only to break it instantly thereafter (thats the only way to get the effect you describe) is not a tactic good sins employ on anything but 1v1's. Its entirely irrelevant to the meta of PvP.

 

And sure, if you provide me with the cartel coins for a back and forth transfer I'll gladly indulge in your little challenge.

Fixing Low Slash isn't nerfing it. Just admit you are a Sin fanboy and can't discuss things rationally and call it a day.

Without the personal attacks on people's playing ability, which you can't seem to back up, you don't really have much to offer in this conversation.

Fixing Low Slash isn't nerfing it. Just admit you are a Sin fanboy and can't discuss things rationally and call it a day.

 

Without the personal attacks on people's playing ability, which you can't seem to back up, you don't really have much to offer in this conversation.

So.. making an ability objectively worse isn't a nerf? Do I need to grab an internet dictionary for you?

I'm really not after individually depreciating people. There is honestly no point.

The problem is that you fail to rationalize what you're talking about here. Which is that there is factually no problem with the game. Just in your and the OP's perception there is. But if me and many other people aren't experiencing that same problem you are describing, it comes down to it just being a problem for the people in question.

The problem with this mindset is that you cannot accept that other people might have got something figured out where you havn't, and instead blame it on the system. If you would however take 2 seconds to consider all the variables and apply some common sense, you'd come to the conclusion that you just need to learn to understand the system yourself to make your problems go away.

This is a mainstay concept of all decent MMO PvP. Unfortunately, the SWTOR devs don't understand this. I would love to see a dev answer this question:

 

What percentage of time do you expect to be controlled during a normal warzone?

 

15% of the time? 20% of the time?

 

It's more like 90% of the time right now. In a WZ, you are constantly under some kind of control ... stun, mez, root, slow, push, pull.

 

I realize BW does not care about PvP and will not put the time into the effort of fixing all the problems the game has, but slow and root should be added to the Resolve system. This will allow melee a chance to have a little bit of time in a WZ not under some kind of controlling influence.

I will tell you that you have to play all classes to what they have and look up what you have on your toon. Vulkk.com is a great place to find information...

IN THIS GAME...Objectives is the way to play PVP...

Dont worry you will have your challenges to beat the persons, I personally dont care about the kills I just want them to sit at their computer screen and scream. "why dont you die!!"

That to me gives me more happiness!!

The classic "im not the problem, you're the problem" response.

And yet you wonder why it is that PvP is so difficult for you

 

If you refuse to learn then PvP is clearly not for you. I think we can end the thread now seeing as you don't want to consider the fact that you might just not be very good.

Hash words wow....You need not put someone down to get your point across. That makes you look bad not him; that makes you look like an egotistical, self-centered buffoon, or in others words a “smarty pants”. Cheerio

Hash words wow....You need not put someone down to get your point across. That makes you look bad not him; that makes you look like an egotistical, self-centered buffoon, or in others words a “smarty pants”. Cheerio

And here was I thinking I softened it up pretty good from the original draft

Honestly what matters is the point im making, not how im making it.

But I guess if nothing else it keeps things interesting around here

So.. making an ability objectively worse isn't a nerf? Do I need to grab an internet dictionary for you?

 

I'm really not after individually depreciating people. There is honestly no point.

The problem is that you fail to rationalize what you're talking about here. Which is that there is factually no problem with the game. Just in your and the OP's perception there is. But if me and many other people aren't experiencing that same problem you are describing, it comes down to it just being a problem for the people in question.

 

The problem with this mindset is that you cannot accept that other people might have got something figured out where you havn't, and instead blame it on the system. If you would however take 2 seconds to consider all the variables and apply some common sense, you'd come to the conclusion that you just need to learn to understand the system yourself to make your problems go away.

Saying the game has "factually no problems" is meaningless. The amount of CC being appropriate can't be judged on fact. It's literally an opinion. And for you to say that "me and many other people aren't experiencing the same problem you are describing" is meaningless as well. That's called an ad populum falacy. I can easily say that lots of people experience frustration about chain CC, i.e. "Stun Wars." It doesn't prove anything. And since we care what toons people play, this is from an operative who uses Debilitator set. 8 sec hard stunlock per minute.

The OPs question revolved around regs, not ranked. At least 8 stuns per team per minute, plus mezzes. There is no "LOL l2p counterplay" to that. It's a very valid question how much crowd control is a "good" amount. If this question were never entertained, roots would still apply during whitebar--but clearly BW thought better and changed that.

tl;dr: Laughingly elitist Control-heavy Sin main clutches pearls at the suggestion of addressing CC in REGS.

Excuse me? Where in the OP do you see any indication of this notion only entertaining regular warzones?

This part?

What percentage of time do you expect to be controlled during a normal warzone?

What defines a "normal" warzone? Ranked is just as normal as 8v8 as far as I'm considered. Abnormal I would consider be the off chance you meet a team of 8 Assassins that all communicate their crowd control on voicecomms.

(I have done this, sorry not sorry )

And how would you propose we handle such a situation?

All any suggestions against this would do is complicate matters even more.

I have a wonderful suggestion for you though. Imagne putting a little more emphasis on objectives instead of going for scoreboard numbers, you won't be fighting in the masses. Even if everyone would, players would spend more time spread across the map in general.

I do agree that in a 8v8 map you can spend a great deal of time being controlled more than you used to be. This is a result of a meta that favours sins and operatives. Both of which have the highest amount of controlling abilities in the game.

It’s really not much different to the last meta with Merc nets being every where. If the game was class balanced better and everyone didn’t instantly jump on the FOTM classes, we would have less problems with most pvp class issues.

Bioware swtor Devs are fundamentally lazy when it come to class abilities and balance. And they don’t balance the class damage and DCDs at the same time. They use a spread sheet and not actual players and content when balancing. Parsing dummies will never tell the real story or show how classes play in pvp.

The one thing they could do is adjust resolve more to last longer and also have some class effects add more resolve or some at least some resolve.

But that’s still only a band aid because you have some classes that are also immune to controlling affects too often and in some maps and situations they become totally OP. ie, Snipers become OP in OPG when they want to drop a red mod and you can’t stop them. Or you have operatives that are immune while rolling with the Hutt ball (there are others as well, these are just examples).

Personally I wish they would scrap a bunch of passive immunities, reduce the amount of controlling abilities and redesign the resolve system. And a reduction in mobility and speed buffs back to the 2.x days would be good.

My other wish would be to remove the “permanent” stealth black out affect they added as a passive to all stealth classes. Black out used to be an active ability and making it a passive to dumb down the class for pvers was never needed and only causes problems in pvp. It dumbed down the skill needed to play the classes and gives an unfair advantage to them.

The other wish is to change back the attack arc size that operatives have for their Stabby stun kill while you can’t turn to hit them to how it used to be years ago. When this was changed there was no permanent stealth black out, so operatives needed a much higher lvl of skill to get into place. Now with permanent blackout, they can take their time to position perfectly and you can’t counter if you have no DCD. They should have a much smaller attack arc again and that protection window should be much smaller too if they keep permanent black out.

While there are player ways to mitigate controlling affects, I have to agree with the OP in saying it’s not a fun way to play when you spend a vast majority of time under them. It slows the game down too much and it’s not fluid.

Saying the game has "factually no problems" is meaningless. The amount of CC being appropriate can't be judged on fact. It's literally an opinion. And for you to say that "me and many other people aren't experiencing the same problem you are describing" is meaningless as well. That's called an ad populum falacy. I can easily say that lots of people experience frustration about chain CC, i.e. "Stun Wars." It doesn't prove anything. And since we care what toons people play, this is from an operative who uses Debilitator set. 8 sec hard stunlock per minute.

 

The OPs question revolved around regs, not ranked. At least 8 stuns per team per minute, plus mezzes. There is no "LOL l2p counterplay" to that. It's a very valid question how much crowd control is a "good" amount. If this question were never entertained, roots would still apply during whitebar--but clearly BW thought better and changed that.

 

tl;dr: Laughingly elitist Control-heavy Sin main clutches pearls at the suggestion of addressing CC in REGS.

I agree with the Stuns that they have just too many,(and I have 3 cc breakers) IT IS VERY BAD!! I have made my toon quite tanky and if they cant kill me in 2 seconds they will stun me forever until all 4-7 people kill me(depends on fight), this is pvp....I guess

I agree with the Stuns that they have just too many,(and I have 3 cc breakers) IT IS VERY BAD!! I have made my toon quite tanky and if they cant kill me in 2 seconds they will stun me forever until all 4-7 people kill me(depends on fight), this is pvp....I guess

The problem is not only the stuns, but the amount of burst available now during those short stuns. Used to be, you could usually wait the first stun out the damage would be negated and a stun break wouldn't be necessary unless the enemy managed some miraculous crit and timed it with other dps.

Now, you got some dps that are 100% capable of bursting your health down in such huge amounts you often times now have to use your stun breaker on the initial stun to avoid death. This sets you up for a second hard stun, which you cannot break out of and leaves you in a vulnerable state that often is going to end with you killed during the second burst.

A tandem of dps can easilty shut down a healer now. Except for merc heals. The one spec that doesn't get shut down easily will now be nerfed soon, so dps can have their fun where no healers will be capable of managing the intense amount of burst they now have, I guess.

Honestly I want to see someone from BW play, and show us how it's done. For real. I want to see a BW rep hop on a sorc healer, and then let one of these good PT, Sin, Operative dps duel them, let's see how long they last? My money is about 10 seconds. Right now DPS are overtuned a bit, especially Ops, sins, and PTs. The stealths should not have maximum control as well as maximum survivability, along with top burst which they still have.

Until this is addressed, I imagine healing is going to become far less popular there's really just no reason to play a healer when a DPS can counter them with 1.5-2X the output in damage to their heals. Mathematically it doesn't make sense. Teams are going to load up on burst specs before they worry about a healer or a tank.

Honestly, this might be fine for 4s, maybe it's just too hard for BW to balance tanks, heals, and dps? At least this way they can have some balance if people just play DPS. This will trickle down to regs too, btw it always does. Most people want to play the best, most powerful specs and that applies to regs as much as ranked so the trend of playing dps will become more popular.

Excuse me? Where in the OP do you see any indication of this notion only entertaining regular warzones?

This part?

What defines a "normal" warzone? Ranked is just as normal as 8v8 as far as I'm considered. Abnormal I would consider be the off chance you meet a team of 8 Assassins that all communicate their crowd control on voicecomms.

(I have done this, sorry not sorry )

 

I have a wonderful suggestion for you though. Imagne putting a little more emphasis on objectives instead of going for scoreboard numbers, you won't be fighting in the masses. Even if everyone would, players would spend more time spread across the map in general.

Bro, just stop. No one calls Ranked "normal WZ." People say "normal" to differentiate from Ranked ARENAS. Like, cmon.

That last bit is even more hilarious that you assume from this conversation I'm a number farmer. I couldn't care less what my dps is. I'm THAT guy doing objs, sap capping off-nodes, planting doors, off healing my teammates. Everyone who plays with me knows this. You don't have to be number farming in mid to get chain CCed by non-voice-comms people cycling through the map and responding to calls.

My guildies even joked that you sound like the type of person who, after dying through a stunlock, would rage whisper "I see you can't kill me without all those stuns."

Obviously, you are having some disconnect between warzone experiences and what's being discussed here. When's the last time you have even done a reg? The CCing can be problematic.

Bro, just stop. No one calls Ranked "normal WZ." People say "normal" to differentiate from Ranked ARENAS. Like, cmon.

That's a dumb assumption

That last bit is even more hilarious that you assume from this conversation I'm a number farmer. I couldn't care less what my dps is. I'm THAT guy doing objs, sap capping off-nodes, planting doors, off healing my teammates. Everyone who plays with me knows this. You don't have to be number farming in mid to get chain CCed by non-voice-comms people cycling through the map and responding to calls.

 

My guildies even joked that you sound like the type of person who, after dying through a stunlock, would rage whisper "I see you can't kill me without all those stuns."

 

Obviously, you are having some disconnect between warzone experiences and what's being discussed here. When's the last time you have even done a reg? The CCing can be problematic.

I don't know how or your little ********** get these impressions of me, but if London was your mark you've hit Tokyo. Good job.

I'm the guy stealing your objectives 1v2 and then proceed to stalling 3 of you for half the length of the entire map duration. I don't digress on unrelated matters. Maybe you should watch my stream sometime, you might even learn a thing or two.

Every class has plentyful tools to deal with things like this. Compared to other games alike I feel like there is a lot of room for counterplay. If you think the way it is is too much, I think PvP might just not be your thing.

 

Because PvP is not about dealing the most damage, or the most healing, or anything like that.

PvP is about taking control of other people. You beat them not by pressing your buttons harder and doing 5 more dps than the next guy. You beat them by outsmarting them on control related matters.

 

As such, it is your GOAL to keep enemy players under at least some sort effect as close to 100% of the time as possible. Of course there are plentyful rules and exceptions, but for that I would direct you to Nelaa's guide at the top of this forum section.

easier said than done.

Especially in theses 8 v 8 engagements, where you dont even know who and how many people are targetting you.

The fact that diminishing returns are not so diminishing is the problem.

The fact that players can keep other players stun locked, snared locked, root locked, etc is bad play.

CC immunity should be every 15 to 30 sec, and not at whim.