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So TOXIC In Ranked Warzone Devs Need To Look Into This

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
So TOXIC In Ranked Warzone Devs Need To Look Into This

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
08.26.2019 , 09:51 AM | #261
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
You can't jump into the thread adding troll remarks, then jump out and back in and play the victim to "toxic passive aggressiveness" and expect people to not respond accordingly.

It's nothing personal, but when you do the exact same thing as me, I just can't help but think to myself, "pot meet kettle." You literally typed troll posts, then 3 pages later are decrying I am writing troll posts, lol. You know what they say about the kitchen, right?

I told you honestly I take nothing personal on these forums, and i honestly feel that you have the capacity to add posts worth reading but in this thread you have had your fun and that's ok, too. Just don't expect to eat your cake and have it too.

Your other point I think is interesting. You view people expressing their opinions on the forums as a "problem" because you feel their opinion means nothing and that's actually the problem here. Aren't we all expressing our own individual thoughts here, and isn't it natural to disagree or think others are wrong?

I view it as normal and part of discussions... That's how you avoid "consensus bubbles" as you call it, by thinking and reading thoughts and ideas on the same topic by other people.

Whether we think it's true, real, accurate or not, it's up to the consuming reader to cross reference information, and if possible experience what is being discussed for themselves to come to their own conclusions.

As for 2.0-3.0, I had more fun during that time in regs, in lowbies, in ranked, the game as a whole was more enjoyable then. Lowbies was actually thriving then. Ranked had trash talkers, but I did not run into overwhelming amounts of match droppers while finding it impossible to get a string of good games together, which is what happened months ago while playing solo ranked.

Is ranked better now, at this very second? Some say yes, others no... You say yes. Not everyone says yes, though. I will go with my past experience, even when told by Jedi Al my experience was a complete aberration and totally not a true reflection of ranked games during that period of time, but what should I go on? My personal experience, or what another gamer tells me I ought to have experienced?

In my book, 7-8 days of participation in a game mode that's wrought with cheaters and compromised games is more than enough for me to drop the game mode and not play it.

I didn't quit solo anked a few months ago because toxic tells or chat upset me, I quit because the toxic mode as a whole with me failing to have fun due to cheaters ruined the matches for me. A week or so of time is plenty of time to determine for me that the mode is/was broken and garbage.

I think this topic for years has been discussed ad nauseum TBH. You know, dead horse beaten. Thing is, ranked as a whole, PVP as whole has grown less and less enjoyable for me. The forums are a place to express this feeling, whether it's agreed upon or not.
The point that has been made, and that I stated in a "troll post" several pages back, is that people that *don't even do ranked* in this current meta are voicing their opinion on how toxic ranked is right now. These folk's opinions should be completely disregarded. Do you believe that an opinion made from complete ignorance is useful to a discussion?

PS - I wasn't thinking of you specifically when I made any posts in this thread until my recent long post, so I think you have a guilty conscience. Though I suppose you may fall into the "category of ignorance" if you haven't done ranked in many months
-Beruhl, NiM Space Barbie (ง︡'-'︠)ง
(\/)(,,,,)(\/) ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱(̢ ̡͇̅└͇̅┘͇̅ (▤8כ−◦
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JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
08.26.2019 , 09:56 AM | #262
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
A week or so of time is plenty of time to determine for me that the mode is/was broken and garbage.
At least now we have it from the horse's mouth.

Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
The point that has been made, and that I stated in a "troll post" several pages back, is that people that *don't even do ranked* in this current meta are voicing their opinion on how toxic ranked is right now. These folk's opinions should be completely disregarded. Do you believe that an opinion made from complete ignorance is useful to a discussion?
Precisely.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
08.26.2019 , 11:01 AM | #263
had some jugg tank dancing around and popping all his cds before combat to ruin the queue for an hour or so prime time yesterday on SF. was pretty blatant.

I don't consider cheating/throwing toxic. I mean, it's bad, and I don't like it. But it's a completely different animal from the verbal harassment issue. I don't know why the two are lumped together in this thread.

you can also directly report both issues via ticket and the pvp reports email, and BW will take action in the cases where evidence is presented. you can debate until the cows come home if it's proper penalization for the violation, but it does work.

you'd have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to notice that pvp is more rancorous than pve, and solo ranked is more rancorous than regs. I actually think grp ranked (on the rare occasions that it pops) is the most cordial experience. there are ggs a lot more often (%-wise). it's entirely related to grp composition. regs are composed of random ppl who don't know each other or have any choice in whether their teammates cooperate. the same is true in solos but even more magnified because rating is at stake and there's zero control over team comp (regs can have up to 50% of the team as a premade). grp ranked is the best of both worlds in that regard.

my point is that A LOT of pve'ers don't pvp because they don't want to get verbally berated. likewise, reg stars don't want to be berated by the solo crowd. which leaves grp ranked, which is empty because nobody's ego can handle getting their stuff pushed in with no chance of a different opponent or better teammates. it's a vicious circle.

here are some things that I think can and should be done:
  • report and punish ppl who directly or constantly insult others. it's 2019. like it or not, that's harassment.
  • get arenas into the reg queue in a substantial way. regs will never be adequate experience to prepare for ranked; it just isn't. you can get away with anything in regs. you have to experience ranked just to know how to go into regs and practice for ranked. but you should be able to play the maps and get used to the format. taking arenas out of the regular rotation did irreparable harm to both ranked formats. remember: anyone who doesn't wanna do a reg arena can leave as soon as they port in. I do it all the time for OPG and Vandin.
  • remove ilvl from the game. it sounds like BW is effectively doing this by bolstering everyone up to max level in pvp instances. I'm sure it will be a clusterf**k that won't work right for a month or six, but it's the right idea.

that's pretty much it. if someone consistently overreacts or harasses you or you see cheating, report it. I'm not sure what else you can even expect for that.

I can't speak for other servers, but SF really is cordial at the moment. the only bad thing is that there aren't enough players, so the games are hopelessly skewed. for every close match I play, there are 3 more that are decided before the gate even drops. and I'm not a highly rated merc. my highest guy is 1400. but I'm not taking anything over 1300 into these matches the past week. it's just so random. but most of the time, ppl are trying, which I cannot say for regs. so there's always that.
Krack

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
08.26.2019 , 11:17 AM | #264
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
  • report and punish ppl who directly or constantly insult others. it's 2019. like it or not, that's harassment.
Harassment would mean that the harasser is constantly insulting the same person, not people in general. If a player is repeatedly targeting someone in particular with insults or slurs, either via whisper or in public chat, that's appropriately reportable, though you can just ignore them and easily solve the problem. Such instances of actual harassment are exceedingly rare from my understanding.

If a player is just a jerk to a lot of people in public chat on a regular basis, that's not harassment, and that should not be reportable, because that's just someone talking.

Also, the year is irrelevant. Just because some people have become overly sensitive doesn't mean we should abandon free speech when we have the choice. If anything, it means we should guard it more fiercely.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
08.26.2019 , 11:57 AM | #265
Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
The point that has been made, and that I stated in a "troll post" several pages back, is that people that *don't even do ranked* in this current meta are voicing their opinion on how toxic ranked is right now. These folk's opinions should be completely disregarded. Do you believe that an opinion made from complete ignorance is useful to a discussion?

PS - I wasn't thinking of you specifically when I made any posts in this thread until my recent long post, so I think you have a guilty conscience. Though I suppose you may fall into the "category of ignorance" if you haven't done ranked in many months
You mean your point was made, according to you.

That's where we also disagree. I view the forums as a place for different opinions and perspectives to be shared whether agreed upon or not, you feel that only information you agree with should be posted, because it's not "categorically ignorant."

I can read and disagree with someone's words without condescending them by making the proclamation they speak out of ignorance. Took me a long time to learn that, granted.

Everything we discuss here regarding solo ranked is subjective. You agree with that, right? So how can someone's explanation of what they feel or experience be called ignorance or wrong, when it's what they experienced?

As for solo ranked, the proof is in the pudding.

If solo ranked was enjoyable guess what? it would be populated and the forums would flourish and other social media outlets would be flooding with enjoyable competitive banter between a large number of people. The forums and other social media outlets do none of this. In fact most people seem to criticize ranked PVP on SWTOR if you read through posts and other social media communication. This supports my own experience which was really bad a few months back.

Unless some systemic changes have been made to solo ranked in the past few months, then I feel confident in considering my own past experiences over the years which have shown regression in quality of matches in solo ranked.

I will stand pat that solo ranked is indeed still toxic, full of cheaters, and offers mostly compromised matches that are low quality resulting in the impossibility of the ELO ever reflecting the player's actual skill level let alone place them properly on a BoTB list which is what top titles are made for, to reward the best of the best. Defending the broken ELO system isn't helping the game, trust me.

The fact is the scoring system for solo ranked is heavily flawed, the population keeps shrinking, and unless a systemic change is made this will be the path SWTOR ranked will go as a whole, it's just going to cause more players to quit and draw no new ones in.

My main point is a change needs to be made for the health of the game regarding the competitive PVP facet of SWTOR. This should be improved upon, along with so many other things.

As many point out, it's probably best to just play the game and not have very high expectations because it is what it is, at this point. If the game proves to cause more stress or annoyance than enjoyment, then it's time to quit or take a break and that's what I did a few months back.

I tend to be critical of the PVP parts of the game seeing that's what I like best and seeing how that part has regressed over the years to be less fun. Purely my opinion, ofc. We probably are on the same side in some ways, we just are arguing over differences in philosophies more than anything if you really look deeper into our discussions throughout this thread.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
08.26.2019 , 12:01 PM | #266
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Harassment would mean that the harasser is constantly insulting the same person, not people in general.
Wrong.

If someone generally harasses people, then the person is a serial harasser. That ought to be punished. Just because someone picks different targets and targets different people never really setting his/her sights on any individual doesn't absolve them of this bad behavior.


Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
If a player is just a jerk to a lot of people in public chat on a regular basis, that's not harassment, and that should not be reportable, because that's just someone talking.
If you go to a restaurant and some guy is there yelling at everyone as they walk through the door, insulting them, basically being a jerk you feel he should be allowed to do this due to freedom of speech? I think this is a big problem with online etiquette now.

People seem to think because the communication is via the internet then there are lower standards with how we treat one another.

The fact is, this is a game, not anyone's personal living space, and everyone ought to feel welcomed here free of a "jerk" attacking them verbally. It's not freedom of speech purposefully choosing to cause other people discomfort and unhappiness by using words they may be offended by or upset hearing/reading.

Now, if someone wants to be a "jerk" at home, then by all means they can behave as poorly as they want it's their home. When in public, or on a game being a "jerk" isn't appropriate under any circumstances.
TRUE
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthSpuds View Post
RNG is counterproductive because it massively increases player dissatisfaction.
FALSE
Quote: Originally Posted by olagatonjedi View Post
As I detailed in another thread, RNG give the players more control over their gearing.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
08.26.2019 , 12:30 PM | #267
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Harassment would mean that the harasser is constantly insulting the same person, not people in general. If a player is repeatedly targeting someone in particular with insults or slurs, either via whisper or in public chat, that's appropriately reportable, though you can just ignore them and easily solve the problem. Such instances of actual harassment are exceedingly rare from my understanding.

If a player is just a jerk to a lot of people in public chat on a regular basis, that's not harassment, and that should not be reportable, because that's just someone talking.

Also, the year is irrelevant. Just because some people have become overly sensitive doesn't mean we should abandon free speech when we have the choice. If anything, it means we should guard it more fiercely.
sorry boss. the year does matter, legally speaking. stuff virtually everyone did in the locker room in 1995 gets you kicked out of school and brought up on civil and criminal charges in 2019. and I don't mean tea bagging someone to haze them. even the verbal stuff will get you and your coach out the door. yes. the year very much does matter. you don't have to like it. nor do I. but try it and see. the powers that be (BW in this case) are far more sensitive to such things (verbal abuse/hazing) than similar companies were in 2009 and 1999. I cannot fathom how you don't feel that palpable shift if you live anywhere in the US. stack on that the nutcases who flip out and go all columbine from the mental abuse, and you have a culture that is now extremely sensitive to verbal harassment.

as for what constitutes it? hey man. we're gonna have to agree to disagree, but calling someone a sh**ter once is like ok. you're heated. doing it again...and again...and again. and carrying it into fleet. that's harassment. I don't care that all you're saying is the other guy sucks. you're piling on and fomenting a mob of ppl who will then jump on the pile. I watched hit happen with that sh*t killsbad (not real name) guild. and that scrawny little pissant is damn lucky quite a few ppl don't know where he lives or who he is. and yeah. that's how it happens.
Krack

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
08.26.2019 , 01:38 PM | #268
I can't believe you are still arguing over nothing...

Can't fix toxicity. The only thing that can be fixed is your attitude towards the toxic people and the way you react if you are being flamed for whatever reason...
Click the link below if you want to try out the game for 7 days as a sub or want extra game time added for free, enjoy:

http://www.swtor.com/r/3Qgyzv

Rion_Starkiller's Avatar


Rion_Starkiller
08.26.2019 , 01:53 PM | #269
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
You mean your point was made, according to you.

That's where we also disagree. I view the forums as a place for different opinions and perspectives to be shared whether agreed upon or not, you feel that only information you agree with should be posted, because it's not "categorically ignorant."

I can read and disagree with someone's words without condescending them by making the proclamation they speak out of ignorance. Took me a long time to learn that, granted.
I think this section is quite condescending, actually. Are you trying to teach me some sort of lesson?

Quote:
Everything we discuss here regarding solo ranked is subjective. You agree with that, right? So how can someone's explanation of what they feel or experience be called ignorance or wrong, when it's what they experienced?
They could not have 'felt or experienced' toxicity if they have not done ranked (recent ranked, in particular) thus they are ignorant. Is it the word "ignorant" that you don't like? When a person vocally expresses their opinion, but has no experience in the matter, it serves no purpose, yet results in 27 pages of... what. Where is this thread leading? Have we reached our bubble consensus so we can move on to the next bandwagon topic/thread?

Quote:
As for solo ranked, the proof is in the pudding.

If solo ranked was enjoyable guess what? it would be populated and the forums would flourish and other social media outlets would be flooding with enjoyable competitive banter between a large number of people. The forums and other social media outlets do none of this. In fact most people seem to criticize ranked PVP on SWTOR if you read through posts and other social media communication. This supports my own experience which was really bad a few months back.

Unless some systemic changes have been made to solo ranked in the past few months, then I feel confident in considering my own past experiences over the years which have shown regression in quality of matches in solo ranked.

I will stand pat that solo ranked is indeed still toxic, full of cheaters, and offers mostly compromised matches that are low quality resulting in the impossibility of the ELO ever reflecting the player's actual skill level let alone place them properly on a BoTB list which is what top titles are made for, to reward the best of the best. Defending the broken ELO system isn't helping the game, trust me.

The fact is the scoring system for solo ranked is heavily flawed, the population keeps shrinking, and unless a systemic change is made this will be the path SWTOR ranked will go as a whole, it's just going to cause more players to quit and draw no new ones in.

My main point is a change needs to be made for the health of the game regarding the competitive PVP facet of SWTOR. This should be improved upon, along with so many other things.

As many point out, it's probably best to just play the game and not have very high expectations because it is what it is, at this point. If the game proves to cause more stress or annoyance than enjoyment, then it's time to quit or take a break and that's what I did a few months back.

I tend to be critical of the PVP parts of the game seeing that's what I like best and seeing how that part has regressed over the years to be less fun. Purely my opinion, ofc. We probably are on the same side in some ways, we just are arguing over differences in philosophies more than anything if you really look deeper into our discussions throughout this thread.
This thread is about toxicity in ranked, which is what I have been responding to... not ELO, cheating, and population. For the record, I don't think toxicity has very much to do with population in ranked.
-Beruhl, NiM Space Barbie (ง︡'-'︠)ง
(\/)(,,,,)(\/) ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱ ̵̱(̢ ̡͇̅└͇̅┘͇̅ (▤8כ−◦
i do what i want major league memes can i borrow a stim?

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
08.26.2019 , 02:13 PM | #270
Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
In fact most people seem to criticize ranked PVP on SWTOR if you read through posts and other social media communication. This supports my own experience which was really bad a few months back.
The vast majority of "criticism" of solo ranked is by people like yourself that don't play solo ranked.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Everything we discuss here regarding solo ranked is subjective. You agree with that, right? So how can someone's explanation of what they feel or experience be called ignorance or wrong, when it's what they experienced?
This is honestly an incredible few sentences. Of course it's not subjective. You make up fanciful tales of cheating and "toxicity" happening in almost every ranked game, whereas the reality is that those things are very rare. The actual facts have been reported to you by multiple people in this thread, and facts are facts, regardless of your feelings.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
Unless some systemic changes have been made to solo ranked in the past few months, then I feel confident in considering my own past experiences over the years which have shown regression in quality of matches in solo ranked.

I will stand pat that solo ranked is indeed still toxic, full of cheaters, and offers mostly compromised matches that are low quality resulting in the impossibility of the ELO ever reflecting the player's actual skill level let alone place them properly on a BoTB list which is what top titles are made for, to reward the best of the best. Defending the broken ELO system isn't helping the game, trust me.
So even though you now know better, you're going to continue to believe nonsense that isn't true, just because you're too arrogant and stubborn to accept the truth. Got it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
If someone generally harasses people, then the person is a serial harasser. That ought to be punished. Just because someone picks different targets and targets different people never really setting his/her sights on any individual doesn't absolve them of this bad behavior.
What you're trying to describe isn't harassment. Use a different word.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
If you go to a restaurant and some guy is there yelling at everyone as they walk through the door, insulting them, basically being a jerk you feel he should be allowed to do this due to freedom of speech? I think this is a big problem with online etiquette now.
Someone yelling in a restaurant is disruptive of the function of the restaurant. The content of the speech isn't at issue. They could be yelling the nicest things to people, and they would still be told to stop or leave. Saying mean things to people in solo ranked is not at all disruptive to the game mode, especially because you can ignore people if you want to.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lhancelot View Post
The fact is, this is a game, not anyone's personal living space, and everyone ought to feel welcomed here free of a "jerk" attacking them verbally. It's not freedom of speech purposefully choosing to cause other people discomfort and unhappiness by using words they may be offended by or upset hearing/reading.
This is *********, to be blunt. Everyone ought to be able to express themselves freely, not be "welcomed here free of a 'jerk' attacking them verbally." If you honestly think it's more important for people to feel welcomed into a happy safe space than people being able to express themselves freely...I really pity you. I've made this suggestion before, but you should really read about why free speech is so important, because you clearly don't get it. Free speech only matters when people say things that you don't agree with or upset you. That is precisely the kind of speech that should be protected for free speech to have any meaning.