Numbers are facts. But please continue thinking they aren't.

It's laughable someone lecturing me on what facts are. If only you knew what my beliefs are and what I do. But anyway, making up random numbers to make your points are not "facts," just to clarify that for you. If I say that you're 10 times more delusional than anyone else on this forum, would that make it a fact? Just crazy stuff now lol.

If I just hit someone for 200k damage in a single hit. If I asked you is that op or not? Without a context you cannot say it is one or the other. If we then said that the person who got hit had 100 million health, you would probably argue the side that it is not op. If we take swtor as a context, and someone got hit by that. It is a one shot on who ever ,which is why we would then argue that is was op.

And this is more gobbledygook.

You must use your teammates to play the game properly.

With what, mind control powers? You can type in the most perfect plans and explanations in ops chat, and many players will still completely ignore it and just attack stuff at random. If you're getting netted multiple times as a sorc, it's up to you alone to position yourself properly and use your breaker and dcds correctly. Relying on teammates to do anything is a recipe for disaster.

It's laughable someone lecturing me on what facts are. If only you knew what my beliefs are and what I do. But anyway, making up random numbers to make your points are not "facts," just to clarify that for you. If I say that you're 10 times more delusional than anyone else on this forum, would that make it a fact? Just crazy stuff now lol.

 

 

 

And this is more gobbledygook.

 

 

 

With what, mind control powers? You can type in the most perfect plans and explanations in ops chat, and many players will still completely ignore it and just attack stuff at random. If you're getting netted multiple times as a sorc, it's up to you alone to position yourself properly and use your breaker and dcds correctly. Relying on teammates to do anything is a recipe for disaster.

Beliefs has literally nothing to do with facts. In the context of my example, the number is a fact. As I said before numbers dont have sides. You use numbers to help support your opinion, its that simple.

The fact that teamwork is required to achieve pvp success is a basic understanding as far as I am concerned when it involves more than 1 person. The quality of pvp in this game suffers so much because people just like you don't understand the very basics of how to pvp works in this game, assuming your goal is to win.

How many times do you see tanks who end up having 0 protection at the end of a match. Do you not think that guy doesn't know the basics of the spec he has chosen? How many players who have cleanse never use it to removed ccs of their teammates. I bet 80% of that player base never use it. On top of that you have some people say that there is too much cc in this game? Some specs can cleanse cc's, but as I mentioned most people never remove them even tho they have the option to remove the cc. Look at the the dps specs with taunts who also end up with 0 protection at the end of a match. How about people who defend nodes by themselves and someone tries to sap cap them by first using the 4 second stun (1v1 situation). It takes 6 or 8 seconds to cap a point in hypergate and civil wars respectively. So explain to me why it is a good idea to use your only cc breaker (assuming no pt with rockets or sorcs with bubble breaker are the defenders) for that 4 second stun. If you even try to give a good reason for this alex.....

So many issues that I see on the forums are caused not by the game design, but the player base inability to understand the game they are playing. The thing I tell people the most to improve their play in pvp is to THINK when they play.

Net is the worst thing for sorcs since they have only 1 individual option to survive. That is to break it since every other dcd/movement abilities cannot be used during net if their don't use their cc break. You need help from your teammates if you want to survive a second net. If you dont get help and you die, good on the other team and bad on yours.

As long as you refuse to see this game as a team game and only think of it as solo in regards to pvp, you will never become a top end pvper.

The fact that teamwork is required to achieve pvp success is a basic understanding as far as I am concerned when it involves more than 1 person. The quality of pvp in this game suffers so much because people just like you don't understand the very basics of how to pvp works in this game, assuming your goal is to win.

 

How many times do you see tanks who end up having 0 protection at the end of a match. Do you not think that guy doesn't know the basics of the spec he has chosen? How many players who have cleanse never use it to removed ccs of their teammates. I bet 80% of that player base never use it. On top of that you have some people say that there is too much cc in this game? Some specs can cleanse cc's, but as I mentioned most people never remove them even tho they have the option to remove the cc. Look at the the dps specs with taunts who also end up with 0 protection at the end of a match. How about people who defend nodes by themselves and someone tries to sap cap them by first using the 4 second stun (1v1 situation). It takes 6 or 8 seconds to cap a point in hypergate and civil wars respectively. So explain to me why it is a good idea to use your only cc breaker (assuming no pt with rockets or sorcs with bubble breaker are the defenders) for that 4 second stun. If you even try to give a good reason for this alex.....

 

So many issues that I see on the forums are caused not by the game design, but the player base inability to understand the game they are playing. The thing I tell people the most to improve their play in pvp is to THINK when they play.

I mean, as usual you haven't even understood my objection. I don't disagree with most of what you said. Obviously a lot of people don't know how to play this game properly, and a lot of people don't know how to work as a team. But the point is that you cannot force your teammates to play properly. Your approach is apparently to just hope that they will do the right thing. My approach I suppose is more pessimistic, even though I'm generally quite an optimistic person. I assume that my teammates are going to play very poorly, and if they end up playing well that's just a bonus. If you try to play a certain way that relies on your teammates doing things to save you, you're going to lose a lot of games. Rather than blaming your teammates for their shortcomings, it's usually more productive to be as self sufficient as possible (but full disclosure, I will sometimes express displeasure in chat if I think my teammates performed especially bad).

Net is the worst thing for sorcs since they have only 1 individual option to survive. That is to break it since every other dcd/movement abilities cannot be used during net if their don't use their cc break. You need help from your teammates if you want to survive a second net. If you dont get help and you die, good on the other team and bad on yours.

You don't need teammates to survive two nets as a sorc. A lot depends on when they net you, but this is what usually happens. If they have multiple mercs, the moment that you realize they are focusing you, you have several options. If one of the mercs nets right away when you still have a decent amount of health, you can probably eat that net, use unnatural preservation, bubble, medpac, adrenal, etc, in order to survive that net without breaking. Then when the second net comes in when you're at low health, you can immediately break it and barrier/phase walk, depending on the situation.

Another possible scenario is if they don't net right away, because they're both waiting until you're at low health. You can use phase walk or barrier (or both) very early, before they even get a chance to net you. Ultimately, when they finally do get the nets onto you, you will die, but you will have been able to waste a lot of their time first and hopefully your team has gotten a kill (or two) by then. This strategy is obviously not as good as the first I described. The key is making sure that you use both phase walk and barrier effectively before you die, one way or another.

Those are just two possible options, but they are two rather common scenarios when facing two mercs. Now if three mercs successfully chase you around and chain net you, you'll be pretty screwed, but honestly that's pretty rare. If there are 3 mercs on one team, chances are at least one of them is very bad.

The point is that you don't necessarily need teammates' help to survive two nets, nor should you expect it. If you get a guard from a dps sin, or some offheals from a dps op, or someone else expertly cc's the mercs, great, obviously that can always help. But it isn't necessary, and you shouldn't bank on getting those things from random teammates.

As long as you refuse to see this game as a team game and only think of it as solo in regards to pvp, you will never become a top end pvper.

Just because it's a team game doesn't mean that you should expect to be babysat by teammates. That kind of thinking actually holds a lot of people back in team games. I see it a lot in overwatch. Some players are constantly looking for their teammates to do things for them. "How come you didn't heal me enough, why didn't you make enough space for me, why didn't you peel for me." These can all be totally valid criticisms (and I will sometimes throw out those criticisms myself if I think they're warranted), but again, expecting your teammates to be competent is just unrealistic, and learning to play in a way that is not overly reliant on teammates is extremely valuable. None of that is denying the benefits of playing well as a team, nor is it "refus[ing] to see this game as a team game."

Cancel net effects and after dmg effects once you use breaker also

yes!! Thats the thing that gets people out of stealth since vanish shroud doenst last that long and the damage causes you to get back into combat.

You guy's aren't any fun. You like to derail the thread at your leisure but then not engage others when they derail the thread.

No love for Zachariah? No love for Yardstick/Bibi'fet?! No love for sexy Lexi?!?!? W/e you people are soulless.

Just make subsequent nets within a minute or so of the first net not apply hinder, but still the damage and slow. They still must fix the mando net applying through concealment rolls and mad dash and stuff (the merc net correctly does not apply during these windows). And fix shroud. And yes group ranked/trinity matches should influence balancing more than solos or regs.

That is an interesting idea, having multiple nets unable to apply hinder. But if you fiddle with that code wouldnt that also apply hinder with Gore? I personally have no issue, competitively, with carnage having a hinder because it is for 1 gcd. I think Gore is fairly balanced. But if you are going to tinker with how net hinder works I think it might also effect how Gore's hinder works during that time too.

When it comes to electro net going through mad dash and roll immunity are we 100% sure this isn't a desync issue? I remember multiple times where I would be in the mad dash animation and I would be hardstun in it. I am not 100% confident in saying net is going through these abilities with how bad desync is. But Shroud is another story, that needs to be addressed. I am not sure if its an issue with Shroud or Net itself but that bug is annoying.

The fact that they have elements that are poorly designed for pvp as you put it, is an intentional weakness that is taken into account into the overall balance.

That is a pretty ballsy statement to say considering how many poor design choices were made over the years of the game. Developers do, often, make many mistakes when balancing.

Again, net roulette with sorcs is once again an individual mindset of the game. You must use your teammates to play the game properly. If you refuse to use your teammates who have the tools to help you, then that is a sign you don't understand how pvp was designed in this game and that is your problem.

You could say this about every aspect of the game. That is completely a cop out.

Net is one of the most powerful abilities in the whole game that was never remotely balanced in the first place. The fact that no one even complained about it on a massive level was because not even 1/10 of the community played the class for years considering how bad the class was overall. You never really encountered more than a handful of mercs in any warzone ranked or regular for years. Now it's a different story. The issue of multiple nets on one target in a very short amount of time should be addressed now.

Net is powerful. It should still be powerful but multiple nets on one target is broken.

The fact that no one even complained about it on a massive level...

Really?

I could spend more time and dig up hundreds of other posts and threads discussing why E-net is or is not OP'd, but I figured these alone ought to dismiss the notion that this ability has never been much of a topic of debate.

If you aint going to be transparent it's hard to view your proposition of a nerf to e-net as anything but a personal vendetta versus an ability that just happens to also cause your class/spec the most trouble.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=925446&highlight=net

Electro net is to op plz nerf it...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=905904&highlight=electronet

Get rid of Electronet 12.12.2016 , 11:08 AM | #1

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=852976&highlight=electronet

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative

Electronet 11.13.2015 , 06:24 PM | #4

Electro Net is a Mercenary/Commando ability. Being Netted is the of the worst abilities which can be casted on you in combat for an Operative/Scoundrel healer. It inhibits you from kiting because of the slow, use life saving abilities such as your roll and combat stealthing. It also penalizes you from moving with the damage increase if you move during the abilities duration.

(Sorry, had to add this little nugget I found. You been hating on E-net since at least 2015! rofl.)

In 2013 this extensive thread on Electronet was created and as you can see quite a bit of discussion has gone on for years about electronet, and what it boils down to is the general consensus is both players and devs think it's not a big deal.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=601676&highlight=electronet

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Commando / Mercenary

><>< Electronet ><><

Hi I have seen all the class changes on 1st day of PTS and alot more classes have serious movement speed or sprint like ability boosts. The 90second electronet cooldown is to long and would do alot better for mercs/commandos as a 30-45-60 second cooldown.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Please Put your thoughts on the PTS Threads so devs can see it:

 

Electronet AOE / Interrupt Immunity Ideas:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=607787

 

[bug/Feedback/Delay] Electro Net (video included)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=605710

 

Powertech 2.0 [vs] Mercenary 2.0

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=607347

 

[Poll] Would you bring a Mercenary/Commando to your Ideal Ranked Warzone Team in 2.0?

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=606602&page=2

 

Commando DPS PvP Feedback

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=606411

 

Electronet 90s cooldown

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5894824#post5894824

 

---

P.S. I hate having to post the same thread in Commando and Mercenary forums because it's effectively the same class. Support Class Forum Merger Thread here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5959795#post5959795

 

**Support these threads by replying with your thoughts.

snip

I have a personal vendetta when suggestion reasonable changes for an old ability that is arguably the most powerful in the whole game. I'm really confused what your trying to imply here. I find this accusation rather humorous.

If i had an vendetta i wouldn't be here discussing changes i would demand its removal. You can see that is clearly not the case.

You know unlike major of people on forums when I come to discuss a topic I am open to players changing my mind, which even has been done so far on this thread if they can defend their position. I am not here to listen to myself speak I am here to discuss a topic and see what others have to say about it.

I have a personal vendetta when suggestion reasonable changes for an old ability that is arguably the most powerful in the whole game. I'm really confused what your trying to imply here. I find this accusation rather humorous.

 

If i had an vendetta i wouldn't be here discussing changes i would demand its removal. You can see that is clearly not the case

 

You know unlike major of people on forums when I come to discuss a topic I am open to players changing my mind, which even has been done so far on this thread if they can defend their position. I am not here to listen to myself speak I am here to discuss a topic and see what others have to say about it.

It's been a topic since it's inception and debated/discussed since then, too.

If you nerf it, then the classes that already seem impossible to kill will only be granted that much more freedom if they can get a 90 sec immunity from E-net.

I think the only reason e-net was acceptable in the past is because Commandos & Mercs didn't have the massive DCD's that they have now (like Hottie said in the OP). With the exception of a few unicorns (like Chasso, Hop on pre-4.0 Shadowlands) nobody cared because they were (mostly) useless squishlords.

OT: Why were mercs given so many DCD's when all they were really lacking in was mobility/movement speed? They move at snail speed. Hold the Line raises them to turtle speed. Even snipers/slingers have more mobility -- and they're traditionally turrets.

It's been a topic since it's inception and debated/discussed since then, too.

 

If you nerf it, then the classes that already seem impossible to kill will only be granted that much more freedom if they can get a 90 sec immunity from E-net.

not really, the topic is something that was brought up from time to time but it was never really on a massive scale (such as i said) for example as when ap pts were overpowered, or operative healers or sorc healers or merc dcds. everyone was cry about those topics everywhere till they were nerfed. Those imbalances were wildly discussed in almost every circle. Like i say again, no one complained like that about mercs net because they were just bad. Only a handful of players played the class. they were mediocre in regs, trash in solo ranked and never used in teams ; there is no reason to complain about it because there was no one was playing it. multiple nets were something you had to deal with every blue moon

If you nerf it, then the classes that already seem impossible to kill will only be granted that much more freedom if they can get a 90 sec immunity from E-net.

The issue with net isn't just one its when there is multiple mercs on one team or another. This really isn't an issue for team ranked because no one (to my knowledge) uses multiple mercs; there is class diversity in teams of the most part. In the other game pvp functions, solo ranked and regs there is no real class segregation between the teams, so the issue becomes more apparent

if you honestly believe that multiple nets on a target is the only way you can kill anything in swtor, that is an absurd notion.

 

OT: Why were mercs given so many DCD's when all they were really lacking in was mobility/movement speed? They move at snail speed. Hold the Line raises them to turtle speed. Even snipers/slingers have more mobility -- and they're traditionally turrets.

In my opinion this is because the style of merc fit more into a PvE environment. They were a turret dps and a bit of a glass cannon. The game has PvE too not every class in PvP is balanced for PvP, they are also centered around PvE. Mercs style isn't really made for PvP combat where mobility and instants are what makes classes great. That is why I said the class has issues, they didn't need multiple dcds, they needed 1 escape, more mobility and other ways of doing damage when tunneled.

It's been a topic since it's inception and debated/discussed since then, too.

 

If you nerf it, then the classes that already seem impossible to kill will only be granted that much more freedom if they can get a 90 sec immunity from E-net.

I dont think thats the case. I haven't seen a single person complain about gore to date.

See... Enet is 90 second cd for a full 9 seconds, whereas gore is 1.5 for 15 seconds. Multiply by 6 and you get 9 each (gore and enet).

Gores duration is far shorter in practice and that's why people don't complain about gore. You can adapt to gore, and there's no punishment for moving away, which people have to do, to LoS snipers or back out of melee range while they're rooted.

You can also predict gore, due to it's much shorter range (it's not a 30m ability)

In my opinion this is because the style of merc fit more into a PvE environment. They were a turret dps and a bit of a glass cannon. The game has PvE too not every class in PvP is balanced for PvP, they are also centered around PvE. Mercs style isn't really made for PvP combat where mobility and instants are what makes classes great. That is why I said the class has issues, they didn't need multiple dcds, they needed 1 escape, more mobility and other ways of doing damage when tunneled.

Obviously I agree with your reasoning for nerfing multiple nets, but your other characterizations of mercs confuse me. You say that "mobility and instants are what makes classes great," yet mercs are undeniably better in pvp now than any other dps class. So clearly that isn't the case. Mercs' dcds, which make them the most resistant to tunneling of any dps, are what make them the best class. Whether they "needed" them, or whether Bioware should have given them more mobility instead, is a different story.

To take the extreme example, sorc dps vs merc dps. This isn't even a contest. Dps sorcs obviously have much better mobility, yet they are clearly inferior to dps mercs in every situation (assuming equal skill obviously).

And let's say they took away or drastically nerfed some of mercs' dcds and gave them more mobility. Wouldn't that just pretty much make them sorcs? I think the style of play for mercs is perfectly fine as is, they just need their dcds toned down and they would be well-balanced.

not really, the topic is something that was brought up from time to time but it was never really on a massive scale (such as i said) for example as when ap pts were overpowered, or operative healers or sorc healers or merc dcds. everyone was cry about those topics everywhere till they were nerfed. Those imbalances were wildly discussed in almost every circle. Like i say again, no one complained like that about mercs net because they were just bad. Only a handful of players played the class. they were mediocre in regs, trash in solo ranked and never used in teams ; there is no reason to complain about it because there was no one was playing it. multiple nets were something you had to deal with every blue moon

 

 

 

 

The issue with net isn't just one its when there is multiple mercs on one team or another. This really isn't an issue for team ranked because no one (to my knowledge) uses multiple mercs; there is class diversity in teams of the most part. In the other game pvp functions, solo ranked and regs there is no real class segregation between the teams, so the issue becomes more apparent

 

if you honestly believe that multiple nets on a target is the only way you can kill anything in swtor, that is an absurd notion.

Nerfing is never good because you are taking away stuff from people, you should always give people more stuff in order to compete with the OP classes.

 

And let's say they took away or drastically nerfed some of mercs' dcds and gave them more mobility. Wouldn't that just pretty much make them sorcs? I think the style of play for mercs is perfectly fine as is, they just need their dcds toned down and they would be well-balanced.

No, they are perfect, leave them the way they are. Just buff other class, especially since spoils of war and new abilities are inbound. Also its easy to kite a merc out of their dcds which makes them not so OP as many people think.

Nerfing is never good because you are taking away stuff from people, you should always give people more stuff in order to compete with the OP classes.

you could literally say the same with buffing classes; its just one side of the coin

true balance comes from tweaking, that means buffing and nerfing slightly to adjust an ability to where it needs to be. this isnt a perfect world where developers put something into the game and it's completely balanced ; there will be things that are added that need to be removed. that is reality

And let's say they took away or drastically nerfed some of mercs' dcds and gave them more mobility. Wouldn't that just pretty much make them sorcs? I think the style of play for mercs is perfectly fine as is, they just need their dcds toned down and they would be well-balanced.

Hmm maybe. Then again, mobility/predation is one of the reasons why Maras + Mercs have great synergy.

you could literally say the same with buffing classes; its just one side of the coin

 

true balance comes from tweaking, that means buffing and nerfing slightly to adjust an ability to where it needs to be. this isnt a perfect world where developers put something into the game and it's completely balanced ; there will be things that are added that need to be removed. that is reality

Has removing stuff from classes ever made people happy? I dont mind tweaking but removing is a big NO.

Has removing stuff from classes ever made people happy? I dont mind tweaking but removing is a big NO.

??????? yes, yes it has

also if you read the OP, no one is talking about removing anything; this thread is to discuss tweaking

mercs deal with: long cast times, channels, weak to interrupts, hard to kite and do damage, shut down when tunneled- these are all really not strong qualities to have in pvp

 

good mechanically in pvp is: high mobility, good dcds, a lot of instant abilities and casting stuff on the move, interrupt immunity, cc immunity

 

i was having a discussion with a friend of mine the other day about the comparison of range dps in ranked. the question was brought up why range classes are just bad in teams currently and why snipers are the top choice for range dps. its just because snipers are just mechanically better designed and dont suffer from the same way sorcs dps and mercs do. they dont suffer from interrupts, have cc immunity up half the time ; they just have a different experience than other range in this game. while if you were a merc or sorc you just have a mara sit on you and you really cannot do **** about it

 

dont get me wrong, the new changes to mercs helped them in a way. now they can just stand there and take the dick more while doing their dps while also having some more dcds to rotate but its kinda only a band aid. instead of more dcds they need more instant abilities which are far more cost effective in a pvp environment. i still think mercs need more redesign personally.

 

if the devs just made mercs more of a niche in pvp they wouldnt need net as a crutch when arguing their effectiveness

Arsenal mercs have an entire freecast rotation if you know what your doing lol

??????? yes, yes it has

 

also if you read the OP, no one is talking about removing anything; this thread is to discuss tweaking

Maybe for other people but not people who play the class. Most dps sins who mained it since 3.0 hate the fact that crushing darkness, our burst and PW are gone. It ruined the feel of the class.

Maybe for other people but not people who play the class. Most dps sins who mained it since 3.0 hate the fact that crushing darkness, our burst and PW are gone. It ruined the feel of the class.

since when is does the emotional stability of the fotm dps you just nerfed matter in relation to actually balancing your game? if by doing so it brought about well needed quality of life changes for everyone it doesn't matter one bit

balance is not about making everyone happy it's about improving your game for everyone as a whole. that means developers admitting mistakes and readjusting their changes

buffs and nerfs are not a wild concept ; it's what you get when playing an online game

no matter what you do and how you do it i guarantee you, you will piss someone off somewhere in the world for something ; this is life. this shouldn't stop you from doing the things you need to do