I'm fine with it as long as the gear is still available in game and Bioware never goes back to either remove it or make it harder to obtain in order to boost CM sales of said item. I would consider that crossing the line.

Different people define P2W differently. To me the operative word is "win". It means that if you want to win you HAVE to pay, because otherwise you can't get the best stuff. That isn't the case here.

That doesn't mean Bioware should make ALL top end gear available for purchase. That isn't even in THEIR best interests because just getting some money in the cash shop can't be their only goal. "Achievers" represent a large segment of their playerbase and there must be things left for them to achieve or they won't stay for long.

I was actually farming fleet commendations for a couple of weeks off and on before this patch hit. I've played since early access, never bought mat boxes, and like space reasonably well. I could afford one piece.

 

When faced with grinding a set of dailies that people abandoned even when they were new, and doing it over, and over, and over again in quantities nearly exceeding anything else this game has to offer, for what rewards-wise is another source of BH comms...

 

...and then you notice that the people you talked with on the PTR mentioned the commendation prices of the level 7 gear being half to a third what they're charging on live (although obviously this is the word of someone on the Internet)...

 

...and then you notice the whole set is offered by about $13, it's not unreasonable to make the connection that what was already going to be a long and tedious grind was made much longer for the sake of frustrating people into shelling out money.

 

It's crass, and it's not even slightly unreasonable to be pissed off about it, especially if you were looking forward to heroic space missions. And the biggest problem is that it seems to be exactly consistent with Bioware-EA's new focus.

In GTN every new piece its about 400-500k. Everyday doing dailys and you get a pice, 10 days you get all of them. Considering you do not craft nothing but yourselve or any cybertech friend or guildmate or just spend fleet commendations or daily commendations.

I'm sorry, but 10 days of work in a MMO to get the best equipment (for your ship) is nothing for me. This is nosense. And you dont need all the new spaceship upgrades to do all the quest. It just depends on the time you spend learning the missions and of course, your skill as a pilot.

In other words. I just finished all the quest right now, with 5-6 upgrades. 3 of them bought from cartel market (well, imagine i bough them from gtn) the result is:

Stop crying price: 1.5 mill+300k (attack set + power to the shields). 150 daily comms (1 defensive upgrade). 500 fleet comms (1 defensive upgrade). I dont think this is too much. And if anybody think different, we have a totally different concept about "effort"

10 days doing something is not korean farming. In PvE people spend entire nights during weeks to kill a boss.

To the whiners screaming "P2winn" and "Bioware reached new level of crap" (why the hell are you still paying for a sub then??): Get your facts straight about what IS and what is NOT p2win. P2Winn means that someone pays in order to get the upper hand in a direct confrontation against OTHER PLAYERS, be it in PvP or in PvE (the ability to perform better than others in operations / raids).

1st) EVERYTHING contained in the bundle is available via farming in game.

2nd) Space missions are nothing more than a mini game strictly against the A.I. It's a 100% single player experience. There are no leader/score boards and NO rewards are given affecting a players performance in PvP or PvE.

1) Do you get rewards that increase your PvE gear (BH comms and cash? - Yes)

2) If you don't have a an excessive amount of fleet comms and daily comms lying around can you obtain the new space parts as fast as someone who buys CC coins simply by farming in game? No.

3) Does the person who buys those upgrades via the Cartel Marketing suddenly have an advantage in obtaining PvE gear faster than the person who will farm in game only? Yes

Hence... pay 2 win

is that not by definition "Pay2Win" Space Missions ???

No, it is not P2W. P2W by definition is something sold exclusively through the store that gives you an unfair advantage over other players which can't be acquired through normal gameplay. You can acquire the items in question via normal gameplay, i.e. grinding Space Missions.

In addition, purchasing the Cartel Packs is not purchasing any specific item. I have never purchased a Cartel Pack myself, but my understanding is that there is only a chance to receive special items via the Packs. So even if you couldn't grind for these Space Mission items, it would still be debatable whether their acquisition via Cartel Packs is P2W since there is no guarantee you would even obtain the items via that method.

1) Do you get rewards that increase your PvE gear (BH comms and cash? - Yes)

2) If you don't have a an excessive amount of fleet comms and daily comms lying around can you obtain the new space parts as fast as someone who buys CC coins simply by farming in game? No.

3) Does the person who buys those upgrades via the Cartel Marketing suddenly have an advantage in obtaining PvE gear faster than the person who will farm in game only? Yes

 

Hence... pay 2 win

So, this game allows you to have almost the best PvE gear without putting a feet in a operation and spending entire nights of rages and wipes and you still complaining about it. This explain many things. And this river of tears is one of them.

So, this game allows you to have almost the best PvE gear without putting a feet in a operation and spending entire nights of rages and wipes and you still complaining about it. This explain many things. And this river of tears is one of them.

I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to say...

Are you saying, "This game lets you get BiS gear in game w/out having to do any operations", correct?

If that's what you're saying, I have no problem with that either. The problem I have is that someone doesn't have to compensate by spending more time grinding (daily FP's, earning credits, etc.) when they can simply open their wallets and just pay more money. That is what I find disagreeable.

Bioware promised us this game would not become Pay-to-Win, but the first steps along those lines has been taken today.

 

The brand new, top end Space equipment is being sold on the Cartel Market for 500 coins for a pack of 3 pieces of the gear. Yes, you can make an epic grind of 400-700 Space Commendations for each piece of gear (or a pattern to craft the gear) if you'd like to earn them in-game, but the fact that Bioware is selling them directly for cash on the very day they first became available is a disappointing turn of events.

 

I'm not proclaiming the sky is falling, or that I'm rage quitting over this, but this is my feedback to Bioware that people are paying attention to this type of thing, that they've set a bad precedent, and I don't agree with this decision. If things like this continue, my time, and money spent, in this game will come to an end very quickly.

 

I know Bioware has to make money, but there are other, better ways. The Life Day and other Cartel Market fluff items are a great method. I hope they will invest their time and effort into those avenues for getting players to spend some money, rather than the path of selling the best equipment in the game whether it's for the main type of gameplay or side gameplay.

 

Collector's Edition Owner, Day 1 Subscriber, Guildmaster

I think you're right.

The disturbing thing to me is not that they're for sale... I don't mind it. In fact, I might enjoy being able to just buy the sets at some point for alternates in the future. The disturbing thing is that the number of comms now needed to obtain them in game has been set insanely high. It's a nice way of saying, "Sure, you can still buy those in-game... wink wink...".

Sadly, at this point, I'm not even interested. The amount of work necessary to even get the gear to be able to play the new missions (from what I've heard) just doesn't seem worth it. I'd rather take the money and go buy a space combat game instead, or spend the time in-game doing something else other than being able to attain a mission that I'll get bored of eventually.

In other words. I just finished all the quest right now, with 5-6 upgrades. 3 of them bought from cartel market (well, imagine i bough them from gtn) the result is:

So. What you're saying is that you have 6 of the 9 upgrades, you bought half of them for real money, and you want everyone to shut up because it wasn't an issue for you.

Okay.

Got it.

Dear lord its space who gives a rats *** if they sell PVE gear.

Pay 2 Win where the frick is the winning in PVE ? Especially a PVE 99% of you call a tacked on crap experience.

If I can earn the items in game solo with reasonable effort, it's not pay2win, its pay4convenience.

Move along, nothing to see here.

In other words. I just finished all the quest right now, with 5-6 upgrades. 3 of them bought from cartel market (well, imagine i bough them from gtn) the result is:

 

Undoubtedly some people do like P2W (as you seem to), however that doesn't stop it being P2W nor the inherent problems that go hand in hand with P2W.

If I can earn the items in game solo with reasonable effort, it's not pay2win, its pay4convenience.

 

Move along, nothing to see here.

Meh. I can level an alt to level 50 solo with reasonable effort too. When can I buy something from the cartel market that will make my alt a level 50 instantly?

I hate to admit it but it does seem like the way things are going new content is going to be

 

1) Korean style Grind to get the items in game

or

2) Pay some real money to get it instantly.

 

Just the facts, either you go with it or you quit, I don't think Bioware is going to chagne course anytime soon.

1) you have no idea what korean style grinding is. If you do all dailies in one day it would net you what? 500k? With that you can buy pretty much anything you want. That is 1 day. Korean style has you grind for months before you get what you want. Those things are usually random and bind on pickup aswell. On SWTOR you have the option of buying what you want cause its not bound on pickup. You are 100% garanteed to get what you want if you have enough credits. Only super rare items are worth more than what you can get in just 1 day worth of grinding.

2) Completely optional. Subscribers even get free coins every month if they want to amuse themselves.

Whats wrong in the course its taking? You are telling us you dont want to work for your items and you dont want to pay for them. Thus you just want them given to you with no effort. That gets you bored, you QQ theres no content worthwhile and you leave all the same. Yeah, i prefer this route.

If I can earn the items in game solo with reasonable effort, it's not pay2win, its pay4convenience.

 

Move along, nothing to see here.

Well, hello Common Sense. Nice to finally see you in this forum!

2) Completely optional. Subscribers even get free coins every month if they want to amuse themselves.

Care to work out how many months a subsciber would have to wait to have enough Cartel coins to buy all upgrades on say 4 characters?

Yeah, exactly.

Different people define P2W differently. To me the operative word is "win". It means that if you want to win you HAVE to pay, because otherwise you can't get the best stuff. That isn't the case here.

No such game exists, nor will it ever.

Care to work out how many months a subsciber would have to wait to have enough Cartel coins to buy all upgrades on say 4 characters?

 

Yeah, exactly.

Even heard of the GTN? I just said in the same post that with 1 day worth of dailies you can get whatever item you want.

Yeah, exactly. You want items for FREE handed to your lap.

still confused..

How is something pay to win when the only person your competing with is yourself ?

this is only a mini game, There are no leader boards for the space missions, there is no direct play between players..just you and the AI ...

Calling something p2w allures to the idea of a person gaining an advantage in a competition with another player via who can buy the better toys. ...only thing is when anyone plays the space missions there isn't anyone what so ever but themselves they are actually competing with..

Im missing this anger over buy stuff for space missions when the only person whos actually going to give a rats a** you bought is your own conscience.

inb4 fanboy comeback.

Agree 100%, but there are already 2 long posts about this.

Also, these mission can be done with grade 6 equip, they just take many tries to get good at them. I'm actually at 3/7.

Even heard of the GTN? I just said in the same post that with 1 day worth of dailies you can get whatever item you want.

 

Yeah, exactly. You want items for FREE handed to your lap.

Except that this also undermines the crafting market.

If I can earn the items in game solo with reasonable effort, it's not pay2win, its pay4convenience.

 

Move along, nothing to see here.

But that's the point - it's not a reasonable effort. That would be ok. It's an unreasonable effort. You can either grind for weeks or months, depending on your commitment, to play new content (which you've already paid for, being a subscriber) or you can pay more on top of your sub fee for access.

That's a worrying development. Every subscriber should be concerned by this. I know I am.

This patch has also delivered holiday gear which you have to pay for, rather than acquire through questing. That's a new one for me, and again, a worrying development.

Imagine if the new WZ gear could only be purchased with Cartel Coins? Sounds luaghable, I know..... or it did until this patch landed.

There's a lot going on here that makes me feel very cold.