Dunno who at BW/EA is responsible for PvP in SWTOR, but if I were their boss they'd be fired without remorse because they have no clue about sports, competition nor fair play.

Unfortunately for you argument this is a video game. This isnt a sport. The only thing you gain from winning is more of the same exact rewards given out for losing.

if you got nothing for losing, then maybe youd have a leg to stand on with that line of thinking. But this game rewards you just for not quitting the match, let alone actually playing well.

/thread

 

Everyone can potentially group with others so the base conditions are the same for everyone. Some people choose to group with others, some choose not to. Some people can group with good players, and some people simply can't. So what? Is it unfair that some people in life are more popular, funny, better looking, more intelligent, than others? Well guess what - being popular and intelligent is a massive advantange when making PvP friends and grouping with people too. Shoud these people be penalised simply because others can't get a group, or choose not to?

 

You cannot, *cannot* complete endgame PvE content by yourself. You are *forced* to group up with people to do it. If you aren't good enough to raid at a high level, or you cannot find a good guild, or if you cannot get a good guild to accept you, that's tough luck! That's life. Should Bioware stop "premade" raids because it's unfair on those who can't get into one? Should Bioware force guilds to accept poor players into their raid, just so everyone has a "fair" chance?

 

In PvP things are actually far more forgiving. You *can* PvP whenever you want, wherever you want. There are no hard gear restrictions, no lockouts and everyone *can* complete the content solo or a group. You might not *win* all the time but the starting conditions are as fair for everyone as they can be, and you get rewards *even if you lose* (!) - they just aren't as many as rewards for winning. Compare that to PvE where you might wipe for 4 hours and end up with *nothing*. Lol seriously, who are the carebears here?

 

You have a brain and a pair of hands, the playing field is level. The rest is up to you.

 

/0.02

You fail to distinguish 1 very key aspect in your posting.

Comparing pve-endgame to pvp non-ranked.

We're talking about non-ranked not ranked.

Imo non-ranked is a more casual experience on the lvl of doing the pve-content that you can do solo in this game.

my emphasis is on CASUAL vs ENDGAME either case.

2.4 hit and tons of random ppl was queing on my server ebon hawk, it was a joy, then about 2 weeks after or so alot of the ppl who had exiled to Po5, came back.

Guess what? the wz's is now just filled with ppl who should do ranked matches or have stuck over on po5, and not ruin pvp on the rp-server. The pool of players is too small, and its dwindled again now that the hardcore premades are back again.

How hard is is for the people to accept that there is actually some of us who prefer the randomness of wz with pure pugs, and how hard is it for you guys to just realize that we want a que with an option to face just pugs.

if they had a bigger pool they could add matchmakeing and it wouldnt be a worry.

Face it, if you use the pve argument, its just like saying pugs is doing 4man content solo by allowing 4man premade to fight in non-ranked.

The issue is taste/opinion of what is percived as fun, the problem is that one side atm enforces they're idea of fun on a "large" area of population who cant choose to not do that style, unless they stop queing.

Scroll up 2.4 and all those nice ppl who started to play pvp, is now gone again, driven away by getting tired of getting roflstomped by the same hardcore premades over and over.

Who are you to dictate who should and shouldn't do normal wz

When I group with friends for normals it's because we want to do normals you can fantasise that we want to stomp bads all you like but the reality is we're just playing the game. And Gear/skill level has nothing to do with what wz you should be doing.

the solution which bioware has already given for your pure pug vs pure pug is the solo ranked queue.

Unfortunately for you argument this is a video game. This isnt a sport. The only thing you gain from winning is more of the same exact rewards given out for losing.

 

if you got nothing for losing, then maybe youd have a leg to stand on with that line of thinking. But this game rewards you just for not quitting the match, let alone actually playing well.

Soon, everyone will get rewarded the same. Regardless of a win or loss

Soon, everyone will get rewarded the same. Regardless of a win or loss

Not sure if serious....

Scroll up 2.4 and all those nice ppl who started to play pvp, is now gone again, driven away by getting tired of getting roflstomped by the same hardcore premades over and over.

Then read here; http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690301

Who are you to dictate who should and shouldn't do normal wz

When I group with friends for normals it's because we want to do normals you can fantasise that we want to stomp bads all you like but the reality is we're just playing the game. And Gear/skill level has nothing to do with what wz you should be doing.

 

the solution which bioware has already given for your pure pug vs pure pug is the solo ranked queue.

I dont want to dictate, but the problem as I see it for me and by the looks of it quite a few other players is that we're being dictated in our gameplay.

As for your stance on Ranked, you do know that non-ranked is what we want for casual play.

if you in my opinion go to the length of finding people to que with(not much effort I know), you have done something actively regardless of your motivation, vs just casually hitting the que solo-nonranked and getting a random match vs random ppl.

I dont enjoy games where its stompfest either way. if I see that the team I'm in have 4man premade 80% of the time or more I will leave before the game starts just to even things out(if I do a who on the wz and see its pugs on other side, if the other side do /emotes and I knw they got a decent premade I'll stick)

The issue isnt as much the premades of 4 casual friends queing, as the issue being the 4 drilled players queing over and over and over + add powerqueing where they get another 4man to be in that same team, efficently makeing it a 8man ranked team vs pugs.

its also partially a timezone issue/server low time that they can pull that style of.

I dont want to team with ppl, but I do it with my guildmates randomly, and we got no issue roflstomping those same 4mans most of the time, but its just not my idea of fun. I like chaotic wz, where its win or lose by seconds and not already decided before the match started -> 8 pugs vs 4*4 or 4*pugs.

I'm just glad bioware doesn't agree with these obscure pvp ideologies

Im mean you make no sense its ok for guilds to group randomly but not as a team... 4 casuals grouping is ok but 4 players with a hint of teamwork is not? this is just ridiculous in Normal wz anything goes

Bioware has given you a pure solo ranked queue so you have less chance of facing the dreaded premade bogey men

I'm just glad bioware doesn't agree with these obscure pvp ideologies

Im mean you make no sense its ok for guilds to group randomly but not as a team... 4 casuals grouping is ok but 4 players with a hint of teamwork is not? this is just ridiculous in Normal wz anything goes

 

Bioware has given you a pure solo ranked queue so you have less chance of facing the dreaded premade bogey men

I think you missed something in my post or I didnt get it clear enough out.

I kind of dont think its a "premade" when its 4 random ppl who happends to be part of same guild que as a team.

my issue is more with "real premades" who would be in the 2k+ bracket that is farming pugs all day long.

the first group is imo just a "group" and the other is a "team" if you get what what I mean.

given that the game-engine cant differ between the 2 they should force'em to fight other 4mans or other groups.

let those of us who choose to go solo non-ranked get to fight other solo-quers.

to your point "Bioware has given you a pure solo ranked queue so you have less chance of facing the dreaded premade bogey men"

I dont want to do ranked. as do most of the others who que solo-nonranked. we do it for our own reasons.

We dont get no epeen of ranks, its just not what we find entertaining.

We're casuals and want to fight other casual people. how hard can it be too understand this.

Besides on Ebon Hawk there isnt a viable soloque ranked option fyi. the que times is excessively long to the point where ppl have made a thread about "what day to que up". So if I went with your deal of queing I'd be waiting 45min ++ for a pop, how is that fun? given the matches last 3*5 min roughly usually 2*5. then wait another.

Also arena have a limitation on how fun those maps is, vs say the other ones. Not everyone thinks pure killfest is the "wohoo", some find objective maps to be alot more entertaining.

The clue regardless is that there is no or very limited matchmakeing going on, and well this is something bioware should look into.

Given that on EH I've seen more and more of the soloquers-pug drop out, since they dont enjoy the current state of pvp.

From my experiences on Po5 this issue dont come of as apperant since the pvp population is so big(pvp server and all), that you wont have the issue of fighting the same ppl over and over.

on my server(main) EH this is a big issue. and no its not about the wins or losses, its about the matches being ****** in quality.

Had 2 matches today where I found myself in party with 3 people from apocalypse on ebon hawk + 1 of my guildmates(randomly since we both soloqued) vs pure pugs on other side in CW, 0-600 was the score.

How is that experience fun for the loosing side? Was it fun for me? no, we trashed them so hard it wasnt even funny.

Next match it was same setup but the enemy was 4man republic + 4pugs, however the republics in this case was "decent" but just not good enough, so the score AH ended with 400-750'ish, but atleast this game was somewhat intresting.

Next match I got it was pug on pug Novare, that ended with a 12pts loss. and boy was that game awesome.

Nothing was set in stone, it was switching back & forth constantly, nothing was settled until the fat lady sang, adrenaline was pumping all the way.

So why do you want to deny us a pure soloque for non-ranked if the 3rd game is what we get.

You'd still be fighintng vs other premades so whats the big deal in dening us this option?

(my guess is that you who choose to group will get tired of haveing those even matches so fast you'd leave and thats what BW is kind of scared of aswell..)

If you repeat stuff enough, it tends to get a reaction. In this case it's a constant reminder to BioWare that "Austin, we have a problem".

Exactly.

Bioware has given you a pure solo ranked queue so you have less chance of facing the dreaded premade bogey men

Actually, BioWare has taken a half measure approach by giving a solo queue to ranked arenas, but they have not made one for 8v8 warzones, and that is what we have been asking for.

As far as your attempt to belittle people with your bogey men comment, you should know that this type of comment only serves to strengthen my resolve.

Not sure if serious....

It was a joke lol. But it wouldn't surprise me if it happened eventually. The game is moving toward the Billy Bad casual gamer.

People think the problem is premades. But in reality, a premade is often 4 decent players queuing together. And since this is a regular warzone, extreme coordination isn't vital for a win. It comes down to individual skill.

Most people believe they are gods at their class. Which in reality, they are just another Billy Bad.

 

So why do you want to deny us a pure soloque for non-ranked if the 3rd game is what we get.

You'd still be fighintng vs other premades so whats the big deal in dening us this option?

(my guess is that you who choose to group will get tired of haveing those even matches so fast you'd leave and thats what BW is kind of scared of aswell..)

You're not being denied anything for normal wz you join either solo or grouped their is no separation.

There is one bracket at 55 the big boy bracket yes there will be premades yes there will be newbies and all those between This diversity is what makes mmo pvp fun.

And you guessed wrong if we're doing normals it's because we're doing normals no hidden farming/pug stomping

Competion dodging agenda (seems to be the common misconception of players with premade issues)

We just play the game and face each match as a team we don't worry when we see xxxleetxxx premade opposing us we just get on with playing the game.

Actually, BioWare has taken a half measure approach by giving a solo queue to ranked arenas, but they have not made one for 8v8 warzones, and that is what we have been asking for.

 

As far as your attempt to belittle people with your bogey men comment, you should know that this type of comment only serves to strengthen my resolve.

8v8 normal doesn't need a queue seperate for solo and group

If 4players from a guild/premade groups solo at the same time they will get into the wz

So seperating the queues makes no difference you can't stop people playing together nor can you segregate yourself off from a section of the player base it's a mmo after all

Also when ever anyone says" 2k rated premades farming pugs all day long" that's what I think of the mythological bogey man, it wasn't belittling its just a myth.. do you believe in the bogey men too?

It was a joke lol. But it wouldn't surprise me if it happened eventually. The game is moving toward the Billy Bad casual gamer.

 

People think the problem is premades. But in reality, a premade is often 4 decent players queuing together. And since this is a regular warzone, extreme coordination isn't vital for a win. It comes down to individual skill.

 

Most people believe they are gods at their class. Which in reality, they are just another Billy Bad.

whew lol

The problem is, bads will never get better if their first (and almost certainly only) WZ they get rolled by fully aug'd WH premades on teamspeak. The under-50 WZs do little to prepare the 'bad' for the facestomping Biofail has decreed he or she must submit to for a week or more just to have BM gear. True, you learn from failure, but the amount and magnitude of fail that this game requires you to submit to in order to learn (and, as importantly, gear up) is a little too steep.

 

Sadly, the facestompers seem to be a majority of the surviving PvP population - many of them have 49 uber-twinks just so they can continue to not face actual competition. But it's ok, bad n00bs are what are causing the mass unsubs right?

Well said. My first few matches were against premades and I almost quit. Now however, I roll in one and could not be happier. An easy win is easy.

Bioware should really do something about this, but I know they wont. So lets enjoy our almost free welfare gear

Well said. My first few matches were against premades and I almost quit. Now however, I roll in one and could not be happier. An easy win is easy.

Bioware should really do something about this, but I know they wont. So lets enjoy our almost free welfare gear

and the evil circle comes to a close

Okay, this thread is like driving by a multi-vehicle pileup; you think you can keep your eyes on the road, but you find yourself looking anyway. Since I'm too lazy to read thru +5k posts on the subject, does anyone have any evidence other than the fact that they're constantly getting the **** kicked out of them?

I'm curious, because I exclusively solo unranked on Jedi Covenant at least 1-2 hours a day, during peak and off-peak hours--basically whenever I get the opportunity. I have been doing this with my primary for the last 2-3 months. What I haven't seen is any evidence of premades, either pugging onto one or facing one. Even from some of the self-appointed "bad boy" guilds on JC, I never see more than 1-2 on the same WZ side.

What I have seen is a lot of the same toons in different combinations. After awhile, you can look at your pug team and have a good feel for whether you're going to be laughing or crying on the way back to the locker room, because you've played with them multiple times previously. For example, there are 2-3 healers on JC that I KNOW are going to keep me from dying for an entire match because they've mastered playing their class, and they take teammates dying as a personal affront. There are some juggs that I know by sight that I can stand behind all day, DPSing my butt off, and I know I'm not going to get touched. If you pop a queue with 3-4 toons like that--people who have dropped together at random enough times to understand strengths and tendencies of others--it might seem like a mystical premade, but it's not.

I say this as a player who still gets his **** handed to him on a regular basis, based on the luck of the draw. I've also handed out a lot of **** based on the luck of the draw. What I DON'T do is complain about premades. What I do instead is to take a look at the toons on the other team and think to myself "next time my queue hits with a couple of those guys on my side, we're going to rock".

IMO, the real problem with unranked is playerz gaming the queue, and dropping before / during the action because they're not sufficiently pleased with team composition. THIS is the issue players should be complaining about, instead of the premade urban myth. When players drop out of a WZ because there are too many < 25k HP players on their team, it results in a terrible gaming experience for those remaining. And, it's completely contrary to the objectives and spirit of unranked PvP as a learning environment. BW could solve a lot of the complaints about premades by putting some teeth into the penalty for dropping out of an unranked WZ once accepted.

Exactly.

Yeah Except for everyperson that repeats that premades are not fair, there are at least two following posts disagreeing with him.

Any BW employee that looks at that sees 1 sub versus 2 subs, guess who wins.

The side with more subs on it, this thread if anything is a sonstant reinforcement of the system being fine, since at no point in this thread is the number of people posting against premades more than those posted in favor of current system.

Also if your fighting a premade while on a pure PUG team:

How many players are on your team? 8

How many players are on their team? 8

Is your team restricted on the gear you can have? No

Is their team restricted on the gear they can use? No

Do their players have access to different abilities and talents than yours? No

Premade or PuG eitherway it is eight players against eight players, and the rules governing both teams are the same, the team with the better players on it wins. And that's how it should work

And in the end Faction balance plays more into winning or losing in regs way more than any premades

Since I'm too lazy to read thru +5k posts on the subject, does anyone have any evidence other than the fact that they're constantly getting the **** kicked out of them?

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Gameplay/Realm-vs-Realm/Scientists-confirm-on-average-premades-are-better-than-PUGs-9987763-1.html

And Blizzards comment on the issue:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

Pitting pugs vs premades can hardly be called "fair game"

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Gameplay/Realm-vs-Realm/Scientists-confirm-on-average-premades-are-better-than-PUGs-9987763-1.html

A study based on Halo: Reach........lol not kidding a premade in a FPS game is going to be better

A study based on Halo: Reach........lol not kidding a premade in a FPS game is going to be better

Are you claiming that the study does not translate to other kinds of games, and - by extension - that premades equals pugs?

Edit: And do not discount Blizzards take. They have metrics on the issue

I will bet you a pretty amount of anything that IF BioWare EVER comments on the issue of equality between pugs vs premades they would say that it is far from fair and balanced (or some variation thereof).

http://social.bioware.com/forum/Gameplay/Realm-vs-Realm/Scientists-confirm-on-average-premades-are-better-than-PUGs-9987763-1.html

Uh...three things:

(1) Halo? My son beats me at WII Smash Bros too.

(2) I'm not contesting anyone's point that a group of players that practices consistently together and uses voicecomm is going to have an advantage. I'm surprised that the research you reference didn't win an Ig Nobel Prize, like this one. Thanks, Captain Obvious!

(3) What I'm questioning is whether anyone can actually provide evidence that there is a plague of premades in SWTOR, other than that they happen to get their **** kicked a lot? I'm guessing not. It's like voter fraud: certain groups try to take advantage of fear as a wedge issue to change the system to their advantage. In reality, the amount of actual fraud taking place is insignificant at worst.

Are you claiming that the study does not translate to other kinds of games, and - by extension - that premades equals pugs?

 

Edit: And do not discount Blizzards take. They have metrics on the issue

 

I will bet you a pretty amount of anything that IF BioWare EVER comments on the issue of equality between pugs vs premades they would say that it is far from fair and balanced (or some variation thereof).

Well I don't play a ton of FPS outside of the battlefield series and they pretty much encouraged grouping up and forming clans.

Also this game is not wow, even if they copied a lot from it swtor has no where close to the subs, even during launch. There is no possible way even if they said premades have an advantage over pugs what can they do? They already have three queues and to further split them up would increase all queue times across the board. Now if they ever had plans for cross server it would not be an issue but they don't.

So even with an acknowledgement from the devs there is no guaranteeing they can even 'fix' it.

Are you claiming that the study does not translate to other kinds of games, and - by extension - that premades equals pugs?

 

Edit: And do not discount Blizzards take. They have metrics on the issue

 

I will bet you a pretty amount of anything that IF BioWare EVER comments on the issue of equality between pugs vs premades they would say that it is far from fair and balanced (or some variation thereof).

I'm pretty sure solo ranked queue was BW's answer

They will never release such a statement. If they say it balanced they tick a small portion of their player base a get bad PR, if they take action against it, they tick off the larger portion that enjoys grouping with friends

They can't make a statement, it's lose-lose

And unless you can find a way that allows a program that can distinguish between friends queuing, and big bad 2k rating über geared premade out to ruin your day, there isno fix

Also there are many premade a out there that you don't notice because they didn't beat your team or they aren't guilded