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Mace Windu's Choice on the Masters in EP III


Slowpokeking

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Windu did not 'do nothing.' Every source clearly states that Sidious cut Tiin and Kolar down before Windu could even react.

 

Why couldn't he react, he was ready to fight, and didn't do anything to help his men.

 

Even Kolar could make a sway when Tiin was killed in the novel, Mace Windu is much faster.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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Palpatine was only able to do it for a short moment, and please look at the video, he did move away, gave Palpatine the time and angle to directly face Fisto and kill him. What he should do is keep face Sidious and draw his focus.

 

Vaapad would work as long as he was the one who face Sidious.

 

 

They don't have to, as long as Mace Windu could do his job well. It's just like let your DPS face the boss' damage directly, does that mean they are useless?

 

 

 

It does not mean he could take Windu+3 masters together if they could form a good group.

 

It's not attack, Windu should keep face Sidious, move when Sidious move. force him to focus on him and let others attack.

 

 

 

That's not true, read the novel, even Kolar was able to make a move when Tiin was killed.

 

Did you even read the novel? Palpatine even had to use his words to distract Saesee Tiin so he could kill him with surprise, then Agen Kolar was able to make a sway before he got killed, Mace Windu simply did nothing, even though Sidious had move a much longer distance to kill these two.

 

He could move as fast as Sidious, as he did later in the novel and the movie. You are keep ignoring this: Windu was able to move as fast as Sidious, and he should be prepared when Sidious made his move.

I really am confused where you are getting this idea that Windu dodged and moved back. Windu was on him the whole time, and Sidious' attention was focused on Windu the whole time. They were effectively following your proposed tactic. Sidious attacked Fisto and Windu moved in to assist him, taking the brunt of the attack while Fisto engaged him from behind. However a simply flourish was all it took to keep Fisto out of the picture while holding off Sidious.

 

And your comparisons between game mechanics and actual lightsaber combat are again flawed. There are just too many additional variables that the game does not represent. But if you insist on drawing a comparison imagine Sidious and Windu as Lvl 50s and Fisto, Tinn and Kolar as level 10s. They could have a perfect tactic with Windu tanking while the others attacked from behind. But all it takes is and AOE or a brief diversion in attacks to take them out.

 

And finally concerning Force speed, regardless of what the novel says, it was evidently used. Even if distracted Kolar would be capable of deflecting an incoming attack, coming out with at most a glancing wound. But to simply rush and impale a master swordsman? Force speed is the only explanation, the same applies for Tinn who had no excuse for being cut down without blocking a single attack. Remember who we are dealing with here, Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were some of the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. Yet they were schooled by Sidious' superior Force abilities. Regardless their deaths happened, and the same would have happened with any other Jedi.

 

Your also forgetting that Windu only uses Vaapad in combat. I find it very hard to believe that Windu was already channeling Sidious' rage before it was even directed at him - which refutes the entire nature of the form - and he therefore would not have had his abilities augmeneted in any way. Heck one could even say it took time for Windu to get into Vaapad's full flow, in fact I believe the novel makes reference to Windu - halfway through the battle - giving over fully to Vaapad. Again the Jedi underestimating their opponent played a part in their defeat.

 

Unless of course your suggestion that Windu is blind and slow and simple just stood there while his comrades were chopped down for no reason, if that's the case then the Jedi stood no chance at all.

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Am I the only one thinking Kenobi would have survived, and Mace's rushing was the defeat of the order?

If Mace had waited and called them back immediately (hell, call all jedi back or tell them to be prepared, just in case) they would have likely managed to take Sidious down, consequently before Order 66 was launched.

 

I think Kenobi would survive for 2 reasons,

1) no Lightsaber skill, no matter how vast, can hold off Windu and Yoda, whilst attempting to kill the greatest Soresu master of all time

2) Yoda could easily protect his allies from Force lightning, whilst managing to cost sidious a bit of energy a lot the way....

 

 

I think Kenobi would survive, merely because Yoda and Windu are just too good to ignore, think of it like the Gungans taking grevious down. He could have slaughtered them all, but with one or two of them holding his attention, and getting hit every time he tried to strike one down, he just couldn't do it.

Wait what are you suggestion here? I don't think anyone disagrees that Yoda + Windu + Kenobi > Sidious. But I was referring strictly to Kenobi here, essentially what if Windu had brought Kenobi alone with him.

 

Though as a general point, I think Kenobi's excellent defense would put him in good stead for surviving the intial bout, and then he could tag-team with Windu. But in all honesty I think he'd just get in the way. Vaapad doesn't seem the best form to fight alongside others with.

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I really am confused where you are getting this idea that Windu dodged and moved back. Windu was on him the whole time, and Sidious' attention was focused on Windu the whole time. They were effectively following your proposed tactic. Sidious attacked Fisto and Windu moved in to assist him, taking the brunt of the attack while Fisto engaged him from behind. However a simply flourish was all it took to keep Fisto out of the picture while holding off Sidious.

 

No, Windu tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from different angles, which let Fisto need to face Sidious head on.

 

And your comparisons between game mechanics and actual lightsaber combat are again flawed. There are just too many additional variables that the game does not represent. But if you insist on drawing a comparison imagine Sidious and Windu as Lvl 50s and Fisto, Tinn and Kolar as level 10s. They could have a perfect tactic with Windu tanking while the others attacked from behind. But all it takes is and AOE or a brief diversion in attacks to take them out.

 

Team work could help a lot, like Anakin+Obi Wan VS Dooku in EP III, and a better example, Maul brothers VS Sidious, they did hold much longer than the other 3 when Sidious was dual wielding, is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? Not likely.

 

And finally concerning Force speed, regardless of what the novel says, it was evidently used. Even if distracted Kolar would be capable of deflecting an incoming attack, coming out with at most a glancing wound. But to simply rush and impale a master swordsman? Force speed is the only explanation, the same applies for Tinn who had no excuse for being cut down without blocking a single attack. Remember who we are dealing with here, Tinn, Kolar and Fisto were some of the greatest Jedi lightsaber duelists in the entire Order. Yet they were schooled by Sidious' superior Force abilities. Regardless their deaths happened, and the same would have happened with any other Jedi.

 

Force Speed is not Sith only, especially he had to change direction and kill Kolar. Sidious' speed didn't even own Maul brothers that badly, when the space was much bigger.

Your also forgetting that Windu only uses Vaapad in combat. I find it very hard to believe that Windu was already channeling Sidious' rage before it was even directed at him - which refutes the entire nature of the form - and he therefore would not have had his abilities augmeneted in any way. Heck one could even say it took time for Windu to get into Vaapad's full flow, in fact I believe the novel makes reference to Windu - halfway through the battle - giving over fully to Vaapad. Again the Jedi underestimating their opponent played a part in their defeat.

 

And he was in combat, he could keep stick with Sidious, keep face him and take his attack, which would work greatly, Vaapad power up with the Dark Side power it faced.

 

 

Unless of course your suggestion that Windu is blind and slow and simple just stood there while his comrades were chopped down for no reason, if that's the case then the Jedi stood no chance at all.

 

He simply wasn't well prepared, and didn't form a good team.

 

The question is simple. Is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? No, and none of them are as powerful as Windu. So it means the four Jedi didn't form a good team.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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To clear this up..

 

 

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

 

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

 

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

 

"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

 

- Taken from ROTS novel

 

Sidious clearly speedblitzed the two of them before they could even react to what he was doing. The movie showed the same, abit differently sure but that is what happened....

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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To clear this up..

 

Sidious clearly speedblitzed the two of them before they could even react to what he was doing. The movie showed the same, abit differently sure but that is what happened....

 

Sidious had to distract Tiin so his ambush would have worked. But there are four there, why did Windu do nothing when Sidious jumped to them and killed two?

 

No, Kolar swayed, he did make a move, but Windu did nothing.

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No, Kolar swayed, he did make a move, but Windu did nothing.
His swaying is referring to him collapsing to the floor, dead. Not him attacking. Though the film clearly shows that all Kolar does it raise his blade, and funnily enough it takes more time to cross a distance and raise one's blade to intercept an attack than to simply raise ones blade.

 

Also noting that Windu was likely recovering from surprise, and that again, Sidious' speed is force augmented. Even if this were not the case, Windu still would struggle to intercept that attack.

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No, Windu tried to move behind Sidious to attack him from different angles, which let Fisto need to face Sidious head on.

 

 

 

Team work could help a lot, like Anakin+Obi Wan VS Dooku in EP III, and a better example, Maul brothers VS Sidious, they did hold much longer than the other 3 when Sidious was dual wielding, is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? Not likely.

 

 

 

Force Speed is not Sith only, especially he had to change direction and kill Kolar. Sidious' speed didn't even own Maul brothers that badly, when the space was much bigger.

 

 

And he was in combat, he could keep stick with Sidious, keep face him and take his attack, which would work greatly, Vaapad power up with the Dark Side power it faced.

 

 

 

 

He simply wasn't well prepared, and didn't form a good team.

 

The question is simply. Is Savage and Maul much stronger than Tiin, Kolar and Fisto? No, and none of them are as powerful as Windu. So it means the four Jedi didn't form a good team.

You have it completely the wrong way round. Watch the fight
, and pause exactly at 0:48. Quite clearly we see Windu moving in-front of Sidious and Fisto moving behind him. In the next couple of seconds Sidious turns around (because he can manipulate the flow of the battle as he pleases) and takes out Fisto before whipping back around to deflect Windu's incoming attack. Windu is powerless to stop him. One could argue that if Fisto had been attacking from the sides he would have had a better chance, but against such a skilled opponent you don't have a choice in what direction you attack from, you move with the flow of the battle.

 

The Anakin and Kenobi example is not a good one, because alone Anakin was superior to Dooku and Kenobi a match for him. This scenario is different, Windu and Sidious are equals and the rest are simply eclipsed. As such teamwork will only get you so far, because if your opponent focuses on you even for a second - you are dead.

 

Now concerning Force speed, its pretty simple. Without Vaapad Windu just isn't as fast as Sidious, so there is no chance that he could have intercepted those attacks which in itself is a difficult task to perform. Sidious caught them of guard, and capitalised on that weakness through superior speed. This had nothing to do with tactics, but simply superior abilities, no matter what there tactics were, unless they were expecting such an attack, their is nothing that could be done. But again are you implying Windu is some kind of old, slow fool? Who just watched?

 

Concerning Maul and Savage. I'd just point out that at least in my opinion, Maul is a better duelist than Fisto, Tinn and Kolar, and Savage is a more powerful Force user. Which places them in much better stead for taking him on. Savage wiped the floor with all Jedi he faced, including Jedi Council Member Adi Gallia, and Maul was skilled enough to compete with the likes of Vader and Dooku if given a chance. So yes, combined they are considerably stronger. The duel itself is clear evidence of this. Tactics alone won't help you against such a powerful opponent.

 

Regardless their are several differences and considerations that should be taken into account here:

 

1. Maul and Savage were ready, they were not caught off guard like the Jedi Strike Team, and therefore more able of withstanding Sidious' initial assault.

 

2. Maul and Savage have a great deal of experience fighting with each other and the former trained thelatter, much like Anakin and Kenobi. And like that pair capitalized on that strength with considerable effect against opponents such as Dooku, as Maul and Savage did against Sidious. Windu, Kolar, Tinn and Fisto have worked together in the past, but not against challenging opponents, and they don't share the master-apprentice bond.

 

3. Sidious was toying with them. The determination and anger we see in Sidious' face when fighting the Jedi is not present when he fights Maul and Savage, instead he cackles and seems much more relaxed. He certainly starts fighting harder as the battle progresses, but every tiny advantage allows Maul and Savage to survive a little longer.

 

4. I feel the need to say this again, but don't underestimate Maul. He could likely take on two of the Jedi in said strike team and win, like he did against Kenobi and Jinn with ease. He took on Sidious one on one and put him on the backfoot, he even managed to score a hit. He is an exceptional, exceptional lightsaber duelist.

 

Windu could certainly have picked a more skilled team of duelists i.e. Kenobi, Yoda etc. but if he had chosen duelists of the same caliber, but simply different skill sets - the outcome would have been very much the same.

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Wait what are you suggestion here? I don't think anyone disagrees that Yoda + Windu + Kenobi > Sidious. But I was referring strictly to Kenobi here, essentially what if Windu had brought Kenobi alone with him.

 

Though as a general point, I think Kenobi's excellent defense would put him in good stead for surviving the intial bout, and then he could tag-team with Windu. But in all honesty I think he'd just get in the way. Vaapad doesn't seem the best form to fight alongside others with.

 

I was just saying, it's too much for Sidious to handle and Kenobi wouldn't die.

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If the other 2 could make moves, Palpatine would not be that easily to kill him.

 

You can see in the Mandalore battle, he had to push Maul away to kill Savage, and it's not like with one strike.

 

I don't think he had to, I think he wanted to torment Maul. No matter how good Maul was, he couldn't save Savage from the likes of Sidious.

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I'll say it again, in a perfect world, Mace would have brought Yoda, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Anakin Skywalker to arrest Palpatine. But they were not available (Skywalker was untrustworthy), so he brought the best he had on hand.

 

Personally, I don't think any team unless Yoda was in it would have been useful. But you can't just send Windu alone because he would have suffered the same fate as Tiin and Kolar.

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To be honest, mace windu destroyed the Jedi.

 

I mean come on:

 

Anakin: I believe chancellor palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for.

 

Windu: *Runs head first into a fight*

 

Now, if Windu had instead asked when Anakin found out, how he found out, why Palpatine let him know, how much power Anakin sensed from him etc.... If he realised this could be the end of thousands of people's lives, and checked Anakins shatter point (therefore knowing how Palpatine could Manipulate him, allowing him to convince skywalker not to chop his arm off)

 

 

I mean come on, every move he made, could have been made better.

I mean, at least warn the members of the council first, in case you just so happen to fail to kill the Sith Lord who's hidden himself from thousands of Jedi by hiding in front of their noses....

Edited by Selenial
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To be honest, mace windu destroyed the Jedi.

 

I mean come on:

 

Anakin: I believe chancellor palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for.

 

Windu: *Runs head first into a fight*

 

Now, if Windu had instead asked when Anakin found out, how he found out, why Palpatine let him know, how much power Anakin sensed from him etc.... If he realised this could be the end of thousands of people's lives, and checked Anakins shatter point (therefore knowing how Palpatine could Manipulate him, allowing him to convince skywalker not to chop his arm off)

 

 

I mean come on, every move he made, could have been made better.

I mean, at least warn the members of the council first, in case you just so happen to fail to kill the Sith Lord who's hidden himself from thousands of Jedi by hiding in front of their noses....

Actually their is more too it than that.

 

Windu knew of Darth Sidious, and he had strong reasons to believe that this Darth Sidious was controlling Palpatine. Those Jedi he just 'happened' to pick up were in fact already assembled with the intention of storming Palaptine's office once Grievous had been defeated and forcing him to renounce his emergency powers. Bringing a strike team in the instance that Sidious revealed himself. So when it was revealed that the Chancellor was the Sith Lord it was simply a case of reallocating priorities. And really, when their is a Sith Lord sitting at the head of government with massive amounts of power and at a galactic turning point, your fist thought is going to be to put him down as soon as possible.

 

Remember "I sens a plot to destroy the Jedi." Allowing Sidious to remain in power while the Jedi gathered could have been dangerous. And in reality it was, if Windu had decided to wait Sidious would have activatated Order 66 and the Jedi would have been slaughtered. Sure Yoda and Kenobi could have teamed up to take him down, but the Jedi are all dead. Was it worth it? Jedi Code says no.

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His swaying is referring to him collapsing to the floor, dead. Not him attacking. Though the film clearly shows that all Kolar does it raise his blade, and funnily enough it takes more time to cross a distance and raise one's blade to intercept an attack than to simply raise ones blade.

 

Also noting that Windu was likely recovering from surprise, and that again, Sidious' speed is force augmented. Even if this were not the case, Windu still would struggle to intercept that attack.

 

No, in the novel Tiin was the first one who got killed, Kolar didn't die when he swayed.

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No, in the novel Tiin was the first one who got killed, Kolar didn't die when he swayed.
Oh, my bad. But I'd point out that Aurbere is correct. Kolar swayed after Sidious impaled him in the head.

 

He says, "It doesn't hurt." The first part before the sway and the second part after. Kolar would only say this after suffering injury so we can only assume that he was impaled and then spoke, so the swaying was him indeed collapsing dead. Really I don't see how you can take the word 'swayed' and jump to the conclusion that he attempted to attack.

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You have it completely the wrong way round. Watch the fight
, and pause exactly at 0:48. Quite clearly we see Windu moving in-front of Sidious and Fisto moving behind him. In the next couple of seconds Sidious turns around (because he can manipulate the flow of the battle as he pleases) and takes out Fisto before whipping back around to deflect Windu's incoming attack. Windu is powerless to stop him. One could argue that if Fisto had been attacking from the sides he would have had a better chance, but against such a skilled opponent you don't have a choice in what direction you attack from, you move with the flow of the battle.

We clearly saw Windu moved back to Sidious, and Windu didn't follow Sidious when Sidious turns around.

 

The Anakin and Kenobi example is not a good one, because alone Anakin was superior to Dooku and Kenobi a match for him. This scenario is different, Windu and Sidious are equals and the rest are simply eclipsed. As such teamwork will only get you so far, because if your opponent focuses on you even for a second - you are dead.

 

No, Anakin didn't surpass Dooku, he was able to defeat Dooku only because Dooku used too much Force power

to take down Obi Wan, even though, Dooku was able to turn off Anakin's anger with taunt, then Sidious joined it and taught Anakin to control his anger.

 

No, Maul and Savage is good example of teamwork. Was Sidious able to kill any of them in seconds? No.

 

Now concerning Force speed, its pretty simple. Without Vaapad Windu just isn't as fast as Sidious, so there is no chance that he could have intercepted those attacks which in itself is a difficult task to perform. Sidious caught them of guard, and capitalised on that weakness through superior speed. This had nothing to do with tactics, but simply superior abilities, no matter what there tactics were, unless they were expecting such an attack, their is nothing that could be done. But again are you implying Windu is some kind of old, slow fool? Who just watched?

 

No, they knew Sidious is Sith, they already drew out their lightsabers and prepare to fight. Yes Windu didn't prepare good enough. Again, even Kolar was able to make a sway, why couldn't him? As long as he tries to face Sidious' power, Vaapad would give him enough power.

 

Concerning Maul and Savage. I'd just point out that at least in my opinion, Maul is a better duelist than Fisto, Tinn and Kolar, and Savage is a more powerful Force user. Which places them in much better stead for taking him on. Savage wiped the floor with all Jedi he faced, including Jedi Council Member Adi Gallia, and Maul was skilled enough to compete with the likes of Vader and Dooku if given a chance. So yes, combined they are considerably stronger. The duel itself is clear evidence of this. Tactics alone won't help you against such a powerful opponent.

 

What are you talking about? Are you saying Maul+Savage>Fisto+Tiin+Kolar+Mace Windu? Because they didn't die so quickly like these 3 did. Even in 1 on 1, it took Sidious a few round to kill Savage.

 

Maul wasn't even able to defeat Jabba's guards easily, and even in 2V1, Obi Wan could cut off Savage's hand.

 

So the answer is obvious, they weren't ready.

 

 

Regardless their are several differences and considerations that should be taken into account here:

 

1. Maul and Savage were ready, they were not caught off guard like the Jedi Strike Team, and therefore more able of withstanding Sidious' initial assault.

 

The Jedi were rdy, they knew Sidious is Sith, they knew it would be a big fight. It was they went to capture Sidious, Maul and Savage was caught in surprise because they didn't expect Sidious to come and hurt them.

 

2. Maul and Savage have a great deal of experience fighting with each other and the former trained thelatter, much like Anakin and Kenobi. And like that pair capitalized on that strength with considerable effect against opponents such as Dooku, as Maul and Savage did against Sidious. Windu, Kolar, Tinn and Fisto have worked together in the past, but not against challenging opponents, and they don't share the master-apprentice bond.

 

The masters also fought many strong opponents, they also train with Yoda and Windu to test their skills.

You are admitting lack of team work.

3. Sidious was toying with them. The determination and anger we see in Sidious' face when fighting the Jedi is not present when he fights Maul and Savage, instead he cackles and seems much more relaxed. He certainly starts fighting harder as the battle progresses, but every tiny advantage allows Maul and Savage to survive a little longer.

 

Sidious wasn't toying with them totally, he had to push away Maul to kill Savage, even when he was against the fully enraged Maul, he had to use Force Technique. He also cracked a lot against Yoda, so he didn't fight seriously? No.

 

4. I feel the need to say this again, but don't underestimate Maul. He could likely take on two of the Jedi in said strike team and win, like he did against Kenobi and Jinn with ease. He took on Sidious one on one and put him on the backfoot, he even managed to score a hit. He is an exceptional, exceptional lightsaber duelist.

 

He was able to kill Qui Gon because Obi Wan was unable to get in due to the energy barrier, and Obi Wan was not even a knight at that time, only a padawan.

 

Windu could certainly have picked a more skilled team of duelists i.e. Kenobi, Yoda etc. but if he had chosen duelists of the same caliber, but simply different skill sets - the outcome would have been very much the same.

 

That's clearly not the case since we see what happened to Maul and Savage.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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[He was able to kill Qui Gon because Obi Wan was unable to get in due to the energy barrier, and Obi Wan was not even a knight at that time, only a padawan.

 

Bahaha.

 

He got knighted a couple of weeks later, practically a knight when you compare it with how long he was a padawan.

 

Jinn was meant to be a match for Windu when he was in his prime (though Windu wasn't at his best when that comparison was made) and Kenobi was an Ataru master by knighthood.

 

Maul was not in a defensive style, yet held off 2 masters of an incredibly offensive style. He went 2v1 for a lot of the fight, and he beat them both in the duel. No matter what the ending was, maul beat Kenobi in the duel.

Edited by Selenial
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Bahaha.

 

He got knighted a couple of weeks later, practically a knight when you compare it with how long he was a padawan.

 

Jinn was meant to be a match for Windu when he was in his prime (though Windu wasn't at his best when that comparison was made) and Kenobi was an Ataru master by knighthood.

 

Maul was not in a defensive style, yet held off 2 masters of an incredibly offensive style. He went 2v1 for a lot of the fight, and he beat them both in the duel. No matter what the ending was, maul beat Kenobi in the duel.

 

Still he was not at a master's level.

Obi Wan was not a master at that time, you can see Qui Gon drew most of the fire from Maul, and how easily did Maul beat Obi Wan after Qui Gon went down.

 

TPM Obi Wan was much weaker compare to RotS Obi Wan, who was a master, skilled with both Ataru and Soresu.

Edited by Slowpokeking
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