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Trash-free flashpoints?


Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
03.13.2020 , 02:48 PM | #1
For as long as I've run FPs, I always hear about how such-and-such FP has too much trash (and it's not just Kaon, Chiss or Nathema) or how people would rather follow convoluted paths (and sometimes requiring tricky or glitchy jumps to perform; I've been yelled at on several occasions because I missed a jump) to evade trash.

And, of course, Red Reaper with 4 stealthers (assuming at least one of them can actually CC and interrupt) is the closest experience in the game to a trash-free FP and hence is run regularly. Speaking of which, for those that actually ran RR with 4 stealthers, do you feel the experience of running what amounts to a trash-free FP should be replicated in a future FP?

Now, a properly designed trash-free FP can still have boss fights with adds but not too many of them in a wave.

DeannaVoyager's Avatar


DeannaVoyager
03.15.2020 , 03:40 AM | #2
Nathema and Chiss are nearly trash-free if you bring just one stealther. Have the stealther run to a check point, and everyone else jumps off a cliff and dies, they respawn at a check point.

On Chiss the stealther needs to be aware of some stealthed mobs though, as they appear in the middle of the path and unexperienced ppl usually manage to run straight into them... I think there's some mobs with stealth detection too, but I forgot which ones.

On Chiss, even if we don't have a stealther in the group, we just run to first boss popping cooldowns and slowing down & rooting the adds as much as possible. Most likely someone will make it to the first boss, and the whole group will respawn there after they die. Shame on BW for ruining a nice FP with so much annoying trash, that people don't even consider killing them all.
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JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
03.15.2020 , 07:58 AM | #3
Well, at what point does a trash-free Flashpoint stop being a flashpoint? If you just run through some area and fight a boss, that's about the same as just an ordinary World Boss fight.
I.E. New flashpoint, Tatooine Revenge: Travel to the Dune Sea and kill Trapjaw. The end. 🤔
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Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
03.16.2020 , 11:20 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
Well, at what point does a trash-free Flashpoint stop being a flashpoint? If you just run through some area and fight a boss, that's about the same as just an ordinary World Boss fight.
I.E. New flashpoint, Tatooine Revenge: Travel to the Dune Sea and kill Trapjaw. The end. 🤔
😋
It doesn't stop being a FP until it becomes a single-boss kind of thing: running RR with 4 stealthers proved it decisively. You still need multiple bosses even if there was no trash between them, though.

On average, however, trash tends to be described as unengaging at best (unengaging enough for people to prefer taking routes with trick jumps or otherwise avoid fighting trash whenever feasible, no matter how risky) and tedious at worst (Kaon, Chiss) and bosses are usually much more engaging than trash in the same FP (or op), and often what makes FPs or ops even engaging at all.

Akureng's Avatar


Akureng
03.16.2020 , 05:28 PM | #5
Good Day,

I am not sure if trash free FPs are the way to go, I think making the trash mobs more interesting and engaging should be the plan.

I would love to see this game take a page from the WoW book and institute a Mythic+ type system to get people interested in flashpoints. For those that don't know, the trash mobs in the dungeons have a lot of mechanics in WoW and the consequences for not dealing with or "trying to burn through them" usually means a wipe. The problem with SWTOR trash mobs for the most part is they don't have any mechanics or interrupts that really matter, it is just a bunch of stuff you have to AOE down endlessly to get to a boss, with no real consequences, in other words, boring.

There is a timer on the WoW dungeon, and beating the timer grants you a key that you can insert at the beginning of the next dungeon which increases the mobs and bosses health/dmg and there are certain mechanic affixes that gets added the higher key you go.

When the key gets high enough, it I actually a relief to get to the boss at times, because the trash mobs have so many mechanics and interrupts that HAVE to happen.

Maybe they don't need to take it to that extreme, and use the opportunity to improve somewhat on that system, but none the less, I think the ticket is to make the game more interesting and engaging, rather than taking out things.

The other nice part to being able to increase the difficulty of the flashpoint, is that you can give decent gear rewards. I am a little out of touch with the gearing system in this game, however, in WoW you can get heroic level gear from dungeons, and a weekly piece from your cache that will be mythic (NiM level). The other major issue with flashpoints in this game is the rewards have always been garbage, often not even dropping gear that is the same item level as the level suggested that you need to run the flashpoint. Once you get 100% completion on a flashpoint, is there ever any need to ever run it again without a reward?

Make them not boring and rewarding, and people will queue.

SteveTheCynic's Avatar


SteveTheCynic
03.17.2020 , 12:21 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Akureng View Post
Make them not boring and rewarding, and people will queue.
Only if the reward exceeds the extra time and effort that "not boring" implies.
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Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
03.17.2020 , 06:35 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Akureng View Post
Good Day,

I am not sure if trash free FPs are the way to go, I think making the trash mobs more interesting and engaging should be the plan.

I would love to see this game take a page from the WoW book and institute a Mythic+ type system to get people interested in flashpoints. For those that don't know, the trash mobs in the dungeons have a lot of mechanics in WoW and the consequences for not dealing with or "trying to burn through them" usually means a wipe. The problem with SWTOR trash mobs for the most part is they don't have any mechanics or interrupts that really matter, it is just a bunch of stuff you have to AOE down endlessly to get to a boss, with no real consequences, in other words, boring.

There is a timer on the WoW dungeon, and beating the timer grants you a key that you can insert at the beginning of the next dungeon which increases the mobs and bosses health/dmg and there are certain mechanic affixes that gets added the higher key you go.

When the key gets high enough, it I actually a relief to get to the boss at times, because the trash mobs have so many mechanics and interrupts that HAVE to happen.

Maybe they don't need to take it to that extreme, and use the opportunity to improve somewhat on that system, but none the less, I think the ticket is to make the game more interesting and engaging, rather than taking out things.

The other nice part to being able to increase the difficulty of the flashpoint, is that you can give decent gear rewards. I am a little out of touch with the gearing system in this game, however, in WoW you can get heroic level gear from dungeons, and a weekly piece from your cache that will be mythic (NiM level). The other major issue with flashpoints in this game is the rewards have always been garbage, often not even dropping gear that is the same item level as the level suggested that you need to run the flashpoint. Once you get 100% completion on a flashpoint, is there ever any need to ever run it again without a reward?

Make them not boring and rewarding, and people will queue.
First, trash with mechanics has been tried: Kaon being the main one, Lost Island to a lesser extent, and Chiss/Nathema being very poorly executed in this regard, Meridian went back to mech-free trash. Even so, relying too much on trash led to accusations of lazy design.

Second, M+ affixes change weekly, and, with it, whether trash has the extra mechs or the bosses, or in what proportion. In WoW, there has also been complaints about excessive trash, even in M0. But that's as far as I know about it from an outsider perspective, beyond the timer forcing people to skip trash even when there's a clear risk of wiping by skipping said trash.

Given the diminishing patience of who's still playing, and, more importantly, BW's limited resources, I am more than convinced that trash-free is the way to go, and, if a trash-free FP proves to be well-liked and run regularly, maybe future FPs will be trash-free, too. But, if the boss mechs of a new trash-free FP are anywhere near the difficulty of Meridian... would it be enough to compensate for the absence of trash?

Wolvel's Avatar


Wolvel
03.24.2020 , 10:30 AM | #8
tbh i just wish bioware made fps with a set time in mind, some fps can take up to 30 odd minutes. When **** like hammer/rr/cad take like 5-10.

JediQuaker's Avatar


JediQuaker
03.24.2020 , 11:30 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Wolvel View Post
tbh i just wish bioware made fps with a set time in mind, some fps can take up to 30 odd minutes. When **** like hammer/rr/cad take like 5-10.
Flashpoints are intended to be fun group content for people to play. They're not intended to be just something to rush through for quick rewards in as little time as possible.
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Townowi's Avatar


Townowi
03.24.2020 , 12:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by JediQuaker View Post
Flashpoints are intended to be fun group content for people to play. They're not intended to be just something to rush through for quick rewards in as little time as possible.
And yet, people will still want to rush through content, even more so now, so trash-free is definitely the way to go, especially given 1) who's still playing, 2) trash is often described as tedious and 3) BW's limited resources.

As for story reasons for why it would even be trash-free to begin with, it could be taking place in a derelict, orbital facility (much like the Theoretika), it could also be that a distraction could have driven the trash away, it could also be that some weapon has been fired at that area to which trash was not immune but bosses (and possibly adds as well) were.

Then again, do you think people will grit their teeth and learn to play better if clearing a trash-free FP (with bosses at the level of at least 3.0-era FP bosses) faster than even Hammer/RR (and has the rewards of such) actually requires an entire team to play well?