So with all the uproar and wringing of hands about skank tanks, I finally felt the need to put in my $0.02. I first started PvP’ing with the Dark vs. Light event (since it was a requirement to get exp gear), when skank tanking was pretty much the only way to go.

Now, there are new posts once a week about how skank tanks are ruining the game. What changed?!? Therein lies the real problem:

1. DPS with guard. Yes, it makes you feel bad when a skank tank is tops in dps…but are you sure it’s a skank tank? Chances are, it’s a DPS who uses their guard and taunts. Several ways to tell but that isn’t the point of this post.
   
2. Gear disparity. Back when there were only two tiers of PvP gear, everyone was basically on even ground. But now, my main is in 248’s and even with around 1,500 points in def/shield/absorb, I still have as much in power/crit/alarc as dps who are lesser geared. Damage-wise, it’s night-and-day comparing my skank in 248’s vs my skank who’s been bolstered.
   

Also,

1. Don’t judge a class by its best players. If real skank tanks are always near the top of the dps leaderboard, then it’s a problem. If it’s the same handful of names, just accept that they’re really good.
   
2. There will be times when skanks top the boards. As an example, if I’m being double-healed while guarding a door in Voidstar with imps all around me, I can calmly go through my rotation and put up big numbers. Same other nodes and arenas if there are melees grouped around me…it’s mostly fluff damage.
   
3. Generally if I’m tops of the leaderboard (unless like noted above), it means we got crushed. If I’m 4th or 5th, it means we won or were at least competitive.
   

Finally, you don’t want defensive stats to be fixed!

1. Right now, I can delay an AHG cap for a good 30-45 seconds, shorter or longer depending on how many I’m fighting, gear, etc. Give me tank stats that matter, all of sudden I can go more than a minute on average…if my DCDs reset, I can hold it even longer.
   
2. You think guarded healers are tough now? Imagine what happens when their tank can mitigate even more damage (direct and guarded) and healers can spend more time on themselves or other teammates…the tank/healer combo will be unkillable.
   

Since gear won't be fixed anytime soon, let's just get rid of DPS with guard (and off-heals, but that's another post)

Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.

Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

 

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

 

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.

If a tank does 2k DPS and tops a leaderboard I'd agree that the problem with that team was the poor overall DPS and not the tank, but you not infrequently see tanks with with DPS numbers that are well above that and in a range that any DPS putting up similar numbers would also usually be expected to be at or near the top of the leaderboard.

Some might hand wave that as just being "fluff" damage but damage is damage and if not healed it all eventually leads to people being ground down. Outgoing damage, regardless of spec, is also one of the best "defenses" in the game. If enough damage is going out, regardless of spec, it causes damage rotations on the other team to be interrupted by DCDs, LoS, escapes, ect. The old adage that the best defense is a good offense is also partly true with SWTOR's PVP, and that aids with the very long (too long, IMO) TTK of healer-tank pairs in anything that isn't an arena.

Support classes shouldn't be able to match pure DPS for damage output, period. It breaks trinity.

If it were up to me however the DPS specs in this game would also lose much in the way of self-healing and the effectiveness of DCDs in PVP, since tanky DPS break trinity just as much. The problem with SWTOR's PVP is that you have too many jack-of-all-trades specs that are good at something beyond their trinity role and it all leads to TTK that is too high in the level 70 tier. Does anyone enjoy parsing dummy matches where deaths on both teams are in the low single digits?

The only trinity role that isn't broken in SWTOR's PVP right now is healing. But give it time. I'm sure the devs can get that sorted with a future update. I for one look forward to Operative or Mercenary healers topping future DPS leaderboards.

Tanks in dps gear have been the norm for so long that I can't remember when it wasn't a thing.

 

IMO, the problem is that most of the goods pvpers have left the game and those pvpers weren't outdps by tanks in dps gear. Nowadays, dps players that can't do 2k dps in a wz is the norm and because they don't know their class/DCDs, they will be outdps by tanks. But that was already case before 5.0 when you only had bads in your group.

 

So tanks in dps gears seems OP because the general skill level of the pvpers has been going down, but they can easily be killed by good players.

I don't think that is any excuse for any skank to do 8k DPS in a damn arena 4vs4, unless you support broken game mechanics ?

First of all, tanks are support class and should never match the DPS of pure dps classes.

Second of all, Biwoare has NERFED the DPS Sins, Anniu marauder, Carnage, and mercs and left the damage of skanks UNTOUCHED.

WHY would anyone play a DPS jugg, PT SIN, when their skank versions cand do the same damage and survive twice as long ? You see, here is the big problem that needs to be adressed.

Also, why would anyone play pure tank in PVP, a spec that does literally nothing ? most boring thing ever....

Stop with lame excuses like skanks are OP because people are bad. They need to be adressed. Sorry to break it for you. I don't have a problem with them, but they are broken at the moment. DPS is DPS, tanks should be tanks and in DPS gear, there should be limitations to their damage. THeir survival is fine.

Congratulations, out of the 7 points you make not one makes any sense.

I second this.

Okay lets take a look at why Skank tanks are broken. I will be referencing RANKED PVP. Especially group ranked because in regs skank tanks don’t really matter.

First, lets talk about how each tank spec gets a damage buff to one of their main AOE attacks. For example, PT tank gets a 100% damage bonus to Firestorm. A skank tank PT can hit 8 enemies for 25-30k damage with firestorm. Its essentially smash monkey 2.0. Granted, it has to crit on all 8 people but it does a lot of damage without crit. It can crit for 13-15k on a normal PT tank. Same with jugg and sin. Depredating volts can crit back to back for 18k. It hits 4 times so essentially a sin tank can do ~50k damage or so with 3 stacks of the damage buff. Not to mention that sin tanks have the highest mitigation possible.

In group ranked, teams run 2 skank tanks, 1 healer, and a high burst dps (like mm sniper or arsenal merc). The tanks never have to switch guard. Both tanks cc everyone and then jump on a target, each do 25-30k crushing blows (so about 50-60k damage) and the sniper or merc does an additional 30k damage (now up to 90k damage). By that time you’re dead. The fact that a T A N K can do burst dps like that is insane. They just global everyone into the dirt and you cannot do anything about it.

Now lets talk about how all tanks get AOE heal reduction. Two skank tanks can apply a constant 20% heal reduction on a whole team. This means that healing output from your healer is constantly reduced to low numbers. The skank tanksm burst will overwhelm your healer and you will die.

On top of all of this, 2 skank tanks in a granked team have the survivability bonuses of a tank, while retaining stupid levels of dps output.

Are skank tank teams possible to beat? Yes. However, it’s very difficult and the average team who hasn’t been playing granked together forever will not beat a good skank tank team. Dps output against skank tank teams can be reduced by ~80% due to skank tanks constantly taunting each dps and no guard swaps. You could be doing 5.5k dps realistically but with that guard and taunt always up, you’ll be doing 2k dps. This wouldn’t be a problem with 2 normal tanks because normal tanks do not have the capability to global someone.

So please tell me why skank tanks aren’t the problem?

Okay lets take a look at why Skank tanks are broken. I will be referencing RANKED PVP. Especially group ranked because in regs skank tanks don’t really matter.

Honestly I feel I make more of a difference in regs than ranked, where the dps should be good enough to work around or through guard.

First, lets talk about how each tank spec gets a damage buff to one of their main AOE attacks. For example, PT tank gets a 100% damage bonus to Firestorm. A skank tank PT can hit 8 enemies for 25-30k damage with firestorm. Its essentially smash monkey 2.0. Granted, it has to crit on all 8 people but it does a lot of damage without crit. It can crit for 13-15k on a normal PT tank. Same with jugg and sin. Depredating volts can crit back to back for 18k. It hits 4 times so essentially a sin tank can do ~50k damage or so with 3 stacks of the damage buff. Not to mention that sin tanks have the highest mitigation possible.

Since when does ranked have 8 people on a team? I don't deny the aoe potential of skanks is pretty good. It's also much better from my vigi guardian. Also sins have the highest mitigation theoretically and among the lower end of the damage potential.

The situation you describe is me when I'm sitting at a node in voidstar aoeing to prevent a door cap.

In group ranked, teams run 2 skank tanks, 1 healer, and a high burst dps (like mm sniper or arsenal merc). The tanks never have to switch guard. Both tanks cc everyone and then jump on a target, each do 25-30k crushing blows (so about 50-60k damage) and the sniper or merc does an additional 30k damage (now up to 90k damage). By that time you’re dead. The fact that a T A N K can do burst dps like that is insane. They just global everyone into the dirt and you cannot do anything about it.

I admit my ranked experience is rather limited but I remember no teams with double skanks. A skank PT and dps PT maybe. In our case we had my skank guardian and a dps guardian.

If you have a decent tank they should be able to guard swap, thus negating the need for the second tank and allowing you to run an actual dps in that spot.

If you're getting busted down by a tank, I'm sorry but you need some kind of help. I can outlast most dps sure. But at some point it comes down to who kills who first. I can guard swap perfectly well and our healer is good, so we can run a second dps to kill stuff faster.

I have out damaged plenty of dps in an unranked environment. In a ranked environment not so much.

Now lets talk about how all tanks get AOE heal reduction. Two skank tanks can apply a constant 20% heal reduction on a whole team. This means that healing output from your healer is constantly reduced to low numbers. The skank tanksm burst will overwhelm your healer and you will die.

This is part of being a tank. It provides team utility which is part of our purpose. Also, if your healer is being bursted by a tank with no help from dps he needs help. If 2 dps and a tank are able to burst him, good for them, they coordinated well and maybe you should have done the same.

On top of all of this, 2 skank tanks in a granked team have the survivability bonuses of a tank, while retaining stupid levels of dps output.

Who's running double skank? As a skank having another person guarding would drive me insane. I hate having a second guard on an 8 man team, much less 4.

Are skank tank teams possible to beat? Yes. However, it’s very difficult and the average team who hasn’t been playing granked together forever will not beat a good skank tank team. Dps output against skank tank teams can be reduced by ~80% due to skank tanks constantly taunting each dps and no guard swaps. You could be doing 5.5k dps realistically but with that guard and taunt always up, you’ll be doing 2k dps. This wouldn’t be a problem with 2 normal tanks because normal tanks do not have the capability to global someone.

 

So please tell me why skank tanks aren’t the problem?

If I get to exchange damage for more survivability you're just going to hate me worse. The good skanks are not the ones that run around trying to be dps. We're the ones who make our teams incredibly difficult to kill. I had someone come in our discord to complain about the number of tanks on our team. It was one tank - me. I was just so effective at guard swapping it negated his team's ability to burst someone effectively. Their dps was low also.

Which leads me to the biggest single problem in pvp: dps that can't do dps or can't coordinate at all.

That said people are getting their wish. I see the forthcoming skank nerf as most likely implying the death of tanking in yet another aspect of this game.

There is no point in crying over Skank tanks because any way you cut it, tanks are going to be a problem (that's their purpose).

Tank stats are not very effective in PvP - So they go full on DPS, and reak havoc on the enemy team.

The alternative is to make tank stats very effective in PvP. What you think gonna happen then? Same ****. So stop grouping up , mez the damn tank

[*]DPS with guard. Yes, it makes you feel bad when a skank tank is tops in dps…but are you sure it’s a skank tank? Chances are, it’s a DPS who uses their guard and taunts. Several ways to tell but that isn’t the point of this post.

I seriously hope you are joking with this.

[*]Gear disparity. Back when there were only two tiers of PvP gear, everyone was basically on even ground. But now, my main is in 248’s and even with around 1,500 points in def/shield/absorb, I still have as much in power/crit/alarc as dps who are lesser geared. Damage-wise, it’s night-and-day comparing my skank in 248’s vs my skank who’s been bolstered.

Bolster stops working when all your gear pieces are 242 at minimum.

[*]Don’t judge a class by its best players. If real skank tanks are always near the top of the dps leaderboard, then it’s a problem. If it’s the same handful of names, just accept that they’re really good.

[*]There will be times when skanks top the boards. As an example, if I’m being double-healed while guarding a door in Voidstar with imps all around me, I can calmly go through my rotation and put up big numbers. Same other nodes and arenas if there are melees grouped around me…it’s mostly fluff damage.

[*]Generally if I’m tops of the leaderboard (unless like noted above), it means we got crushed. If I’m 4th or 5th, it means we won or were at least competitive.

Its still too much damage for a tank to do, even if you consider fluff. +7k is ridiculous as a tank.

Finally, you don’t want defensive stats to be fixed!

Yes, you do. You want defensives to be "fixed" if the "tank" is going full DPS. It should hinder the defensive capabilities, if you are bolstering DPS, in some way. Right now if you go with PT/Jugg DPS, you are just killing your team, unless the other team is automatically worse, of course.

[*]You think guarded healers are tough now? Imagine what happens when their tank can mitigate even more damage (direct and guarded) and healers can spend more time on themselves or other teammates…the tank/healer combo will be unkillable.

Well, what does the word tank mean?

Sacrifice DPS and give more defensives so they really become tank

Right now, if you gear as a proper tank in regs or ranked, you won't do much compared to a skank. Why? Defensive abilities, as a tank, aren't greatly affected if you use, or not, proper gear which leads to the point of noticing that going Full DPS is much better than going full tank.

Since gear won't be fixed anytime soon, let's just get rid of DPS with guard

DPS that guard can die much faster compared to if they aren't guarding. That rarely happens in ranked (at least TR). Taunting works pretty fine but guarding can end up pretty bad.

I have a sin tank that i use skank gear on for pvp. I've rarely gotten over a million damage and once only had top damage. The problem isn't the skank tanks, it's people changing their method on how to deal with them. I've had it pointed out to me in another part of the forums, to better deal with a class play it for a while and learn it that way. I've also dueled other classes a bit and learned how to better use my defensive abilities.

It pretty much comes down to the player and not the class. Changes aren't needed to nerf yet another class/spec.

Its still too much damage for a tank to do, even if you consider fluff. +7k is ridiculous as a tank.

Several points here. First and foremost I have never done 7k in a warzone, even sitting on a node aoeing to prevent a cap. Sure guardian slash does impressive damage. Force sweep is pretty good too. After that, pure total cyclone slash spam. And none of those come even slightly close to the aoe potential of vigi. Of course, was i running vigi I wouldn't be sitting in a group of 6 enemies for very long.

This leads to point 2: combat time and dps calculations. The board shows, of course, total damage dealt. If I'm constantly sitting in a fight I should hope I pull off more damage than the guy who spends half the time guarding.

Furthermore the dps calculation this board shows simply divides that total damage number by the total match time. Ergo, it's a pretty pointless calculation that shows nothing other than who did the most total damage. If you account for combat time, my vigi guardian pulls better dps every time. Even in large aoe reflect fests. He also spends a lot more time dead (duh he's not a tank) and therefore does less total damage. This is akin to someone dying and not being able to be rezzed in an ops boss.

All that said, I agree that skanking currently does too much damage. I also don't want tanking nerfed to crap because they can't make stats worth using. And honestly for people who whine about the damage I do, you'd hate me more if I had better defensive stats. Watch what you wish for.

Yes, you do. You want defensives to be "fixed" if the "tank" is going full DPS. It should hinder the defensive capabilities, if you are bolstering DPS, in some way. Right now if you go with PT/Jugg DPS, you are just killing your team, unless the other team is automatically worse, of course.

The OP wasn't talking DCDs in this instance. He was talking stats. I.e. currently most PvP tanks run skanks with dps gear (in my case high endurance as the dps is purely secondary to my primary function of survival and team utility). The reason for this is that tank stats feel minimally impactful. I won't say entirely useless after a recent number crunching session witha buddy of mine, but certainly minimal.

On the PT/jugg dps front, I have been saying they needed help on the survivability front since 5.0 dropped. This is, in fact, half the skanking "fix" because if the dps wannabees had a decent dps spec I think they'd go play it. And I'd be freer to do what I do best because people that don't know how to tank wouldn't be guarding people who aren't even at the same node.

Well, what does the word tank mean?

Sacrifice DPS and give more defensives so they really become tank

Right now, if you gear as a proper tank in regs or ranked, you won't do much compared to a skank. Why? Defensive abilities, as a tank, aren't greatly affected if you use, or not, proper gear which leads to the point of noticing that going Full DPS is much better than going full tank.

By and large tank gear doesn't do much, and that is the underlying issue. I also do not, however, go in full dps gear either. I prefer endurance stacking as it increases my survivability. If tank gear was more useful (again, not saying completely useless, after the number crunching, but I should notice the gear I'm wearing doing something), I'd gladly gimp my damage output to survive longer. It would also result in you hating tanks even worse than you already do because I could survive and therefore be more annoying.

DPS that guard can die much faster compared to if they aren't guarding. That rarely happens in ranked (at least TR). Taunting works pretty fine but guarding can end up pretty bad.

Dps that guard are by and large idiots who drive me insane. I'm standing next to them trying to guard swap and can't because theyre guarding someone and both if them are dying. It's ridiculous. In fact I just yelled at someone for this last night. This is honestly why i want them to remove dps guard: it gets in my way.

Honestly I feel I make more of a difference in regs than ranked, where the dps should be good enough to work around or through guard.

 

 

Since when does ranked have 8 people on a team? I don't deny the aoe potential of skanks is pretty good. It's also much better from my vigi guardian. Also sins have the highest mitigation theoretically and among the lower end of the damage potential.

The situation you describe is me when I'm sitting at a node in voidstar aoeing to prevent a door cap.

 

 

I admit my ranked experience is rather limited but I remember no teams with double skanks. A skank PT and dps PT maybe. In our case we had my skank guardian and a dps guardian.

 

If you have a decent tank they should be able to guard swap, thus negating the need for the second tank and allowing you to run an actual dps in that spot.

 

If you're getting busted down by a tank, I'm sorry but you need some kind of help. I can outlast most dps sure. But at some point it comes down to who kills who first. I can guard swap perfectly well and our healer is good, so we can run a second dps to kill stuff faster.

 

I have out damaged plenty of dps in an unranked environment. In a ranked environment not so much.

 

 

This is part of being a tank. It provides team utility which is part of our purpose. Also, if your healer is being bursted by a tank with no help from dps he needs help. If 2 dps and a tank are able to burst him, good for them, they coordinated well and maybe you should have done the same.

 

 

 

Who's running double skank? As a skank having another person guarding would drive me insane. I hate having a second guard on an 8 man team, much less 4.

 

 

 

If I get to exchange damage for more survivability you're just going to hate me worse. The good skanks are not the ones that run around trying to be dps. We're the ones who make our teams incredibly difficult to kill. I had someone come in our discord to complain about the number of tanks on our team. It was one tank - me. I was just so effective at guard swapping it negated his team's ability to burst someone effectively. Their dps was low also.

 

Which leads me to the biggest single problem in pvp: dps that can't do dps or can't coordinate at all.

 

That said people are getting their wish. I see the forthcoming skank nerf as most likely implying the death of tanking in yet another aspect of this game.

Well considering you don’t understand ranked, let me explain. There’s this thing called CC and in ranked you are CC’d and then they hard swap. Sure the tank or healer can pop their breaker but they will be immediately CC’d again. In ranked, wasting cc breaker is a guaranteed death most of the time. Also there are plenty of teams running double skank tank. You can’t “dps through/around guard” when the dps and healer are guarded, always in guard range, and you as a dps are being taunted.

I’m sorry but its obvious that you have not really took the time to understand the problem. A tank is able to do the same amount of damage as a high burst dps like a arsenal merc. All while having 20% shield chance and some absorption. Lets also not forget they also get all the tank cooldowns and perks such as invincible (for juggs) or dark ward (for sins).

Well considering you don’t understand ranked, let me explain. There’s this thing called CC and in ranked you are CC’d and then they hard swap. Sure the tank or healer can pop their breaker but they will be immediately CC’d again. In ranked, wasting cc breaker is a guaranteed death most of the time. Also there are plenty of teams running double skank tank. You can’t “dps through/around guard” when the dps and healer are guarded, always in guard range, and you as a dps are being taunted.

I have admitted my ranked experience is limited. That said I did win more than lose doing it on a team with 2 dps that both did more dps than my tank. I just didn't particularly care for the format.

I’m sorry but its obvious that you have not really took the time to understand the problem. A tank is able to do the same amount of damage as a high burst dps like a arsenal merc. All while having 20% shield chance and some absorption. Lets also not forget they also get all the tank cooldowns and perks such as invincible (for juggs) or dark ward (for sins).

If you're running a high burst team, maybe try hard swapping faster than I can guard swap? Or try to separate the tank and healer (a tank of your own is good for this as all have push, pull, or both) while hard swapping? These are both tactics we had used against us effectively in pvp.

Tanks should be survivable and make allies difficult to kill; that is, after all, the point.

If you think tank burst is even remotely on par with arsenal, marksman, or fury as far as burst is concerned I really don't know what to say. And seeing as an arsenal merc is basically a walking trinity at the moment I don't think that's even slightly a fair comparison.

Several points here. First and foremost I have never done 7k in a warzone, even sitting on a node aoeing to prevent a cap. Sure guardian slash does impressive damage. Force sweep is pretty good too. After that, pure total cyclone slash spam. And none of those come even slightly close to the aoe potential of vigi. Of course, was i running vigi I wouldn't be sitting in a group of 6 enemies for very long.

Stay on contested capture points on Odessen (usually when middle one pops up ridiculously frequent), big fights on Yavin CW/Alde CW/Ancient Hypergate middle fights because of teams that have too many healers or have really good healers keeping everyone alive and slugfests of those huttgames where barely any team scores anything and soemhow stay middle all the time. And of course arenas. In all of these, it can certainly happen. I never reached 8k myself but I did break 7k. And yes, there are people that can go +8k as a damned skank in arenas. And I've faced them, as well.

This leads to point 2: combat time and dps calculations. The board shows, of course, total damage dealt. If I'm constantly sitting in a fight I should hope I pull off more damage than the guy who spends half the time guarding.

Furthermore the dps calculation this board shows simply divides that total damage number by the total match time.

I know about this fairly well.

All that said, I agree that skanking currently does too much damage. I also don't want tanking nerfed to crap because they can't make stats worth using. And honestly for people who whine about the damage I do, you'd hate me more if I had better defensive stats. Watch what you wish for.

Okay, let us say that skank is DPS with absurd defensives.

Do I prefer an actual tank that can deal some damage but its there TO tank and keep everyone alive by transferring the damage they take to themselves or do I prefer a DPS with absurd defensives that does pratically the same role but can do more damage than the 2 DPS teammates that are on his/her team? Mhmmm, I wonder what I want.

Look, I am not meaning to make fun of you here but I'd actually prefer a tank with upgraded defenses over the ridiculousness that is this. And trust me, it is ridiculous because, as stupid as it may seem, even 3 PT tanks + heal can be more dangerous than 2 DPS + 1T + 1H. Each tank will do, individually, more damage than any of the DPS and tank on the other team.

The OP wasn't talking DCDs in this instance. He was talking stats. I.e. currently most PvP tanks run skanks with dps gear (in my case high endurance as the dps is purely secondary to my primary function of survival and team utility). The reason for this is that tank stats feel minimally impactful. I won't say entirely useless after a recent number crunching session witha buddy of mine, but certainly minimal.

 

 

On the PT/jugg dps front, I have been saying they needed help on the survivability front since 5.0 dropped. This is, in fact, half the skanking "fix" because if the dps wannabees had a decent dps spec I think they'd go play it. And I'd be freer to do what I do best because people that don't know how to tank wouldn't be guarding people who aren't even at the same node.

 

Do I agree that Jugg and PT need defenses? Partially yes, both DPS and tank? Perhaps, PT needs more than the Jugg and if we are saying both, well, urgently the DPS compared to the tank. On TR you can control what's happening, somewhat, so if you die over lack of defenses, start pondering if you are using wrong moments for the defenses or maybe teammates not helping, or healer being sapped too much. There's too many factors. On regs, I understand. Below average teammates drag you down, so a need to use defensives more often starts to appear. On SR, its mostly about RNG of the team you have, like Regs, but in a ranked environemnt.

The fact of the non survivability comes from the lack of love from devs, like other classes received, but that's me saying, of course.

 

By and large tank gear doesn't do much, and that is the underlying issue. I also do not, however, go in full dps gear either. I prefer endurance stacking as it increases my survivability. If tank gear was more useful (again, not saying completely useless, after the number crunching, but I should notice the gear I'm wearing doing something), I'd gladly gimp my damage output to survive longer. It would also result in you hating tanks even worse than you already do because I could survive and therefore be more annoying.

 

Going full DPS can result in the big numbers that I've mentioned in the conditions I've typed above. Also, on the topic of more survivability, its questionable. Why? Currently, what we see is that a good team doesn't require the tank to 'survive' that much longer but more about the DPS output that it gives. Yes, its almost directly tied to the usual "the longer you survive, the more damage you do" but its not as white and black as it seems to be.

 

Dps that guard are by and large idiots who drive me insane. I'm standing next to them trying to guard swap and can't because theyre guarding someone and both if them are dying. It's ridiculous. In fact I just yelled at someone for this last night. This is honestly why i want them to remove dps guard: it gets in my way.

 

Well, that is why I say I asked if he was joking on the first line. And about the fact that DPS can or not have guard, honestly doesn't bother me. On TR, that never happens. On SR either tell him/her to stop guarding or tell the one that is being guarded to click off the guard buff so you do it. On regs, its almost impossible to control. Yeah, its annoying but somewhat pointless to remove. All that is required to do is to tell people that they are donig it wrong.

If you think tank burst is even remotely on par with arsenal, marksman, or fury as far as burst is concerned I really don't know what to say. And seeing as an arsenal merc is basically a walking trinity at the moment I don't think that's even slightly a fair comparison.

Yes, skank burst is on par with Arsenal, especially without the setbonus autocrit. Especially Jugg burst.

Stay on contested capture points on Odessen (usually when middle one pops up ridiculously frequent), big fights on Yavin CW/Alde CW/Ancient Hypergate middle fights because of teams that have too many healers or have really good healers keeping everyone alive and slugfests of those huttgames where barely any team scores anything and soemhow stay middle all the time. And of course arenas. In all of these, it can certainly happen. I never reached 8k myself but I did break 7k. And yes, there are people that can go +8k as a damned skank in arenas. And I've faced them, as well.

Maybe it's a difference in gearing then. I've done all the situations and not broken 8k. I also consider survival and annoyance more important than damage.

Okay, let us say that skank is DPS with absurd defensives.

Do I prefer an actual tank that can deal some damage but its there TO tank and keep everyone alive by transferring the damage they take to themselves or do I prefer a DPS with absurd defensives that does pratically the same role but can do more damage than the 2 DPS teammates that are on his/her team? Mhmmm, I wonder what I want.

If you're doing more damage than 2 dps they're guarding, dying quickly or often, or are just bad.

Look, I am not meaning to make fun of you here but I'd actually prefer a tank with upgraded defenses over the ridiculousness that is this. And trust me, it is ridiculous because, as stupid as it may seem, even 3 PT tanks + heal can be more dangerous than 2 DPS + 1T + 1H. Each tank will do, individually, more damage than any of the DPS and tank on the other team.

I'd rather have more defensives too. That's been my request since last july and I can certainly go find a forum post I've made to prove it. If a tank is pulling this kind of numbers in an arena the only scenario I can think of is a PT tank flaming all 4 enemies the entire match. In which case it's like engineering sniper fire probe: don't stand in the cleave the whole time.

Do I agree that Jugg and PT need defenses? Partially yes, both DPS and tank? Perhaps, PT needs more than the Jugg and if we are saying both, well, urgently the DPS compared to the tank. On TR you can control what's happening, somewhat, so if you die over lack of defenses, start pondering if you are using wrong moments for the defenses or maybe teammates not helping, or healer being sapped too much. There's too many factors. On regs, I understand. Below average teammates drag you down, so a need to use defensives more often starts to appear. On SR, its mostly about RNG of the team you have, like Regs, but in a ranked environemnt.

I mentioned this because there's a huge gap between the defensives of say a dps sorc and a dps merc. Merc, sniper, and mara (idk I don't see many operative dps) are in a much better spot than dps specs of the tank capable classes or dps sorcs. For people to not go skank on their wannabee dps, I think equalizing this field would help.

Going full DPS can result in the big numbers that I've mentioned in the conditions I've typed above. Also, on the topic of more survivability, its questionable. Why? Currently, what we see is that a good team doesn't require the tank to 'survive' that much longer but more about the DPS output that it gives. Yes, its almost directly tied to the usual "the longer you survive, the more damage you do" but its not as white and black as it seems to be.

I spend a lot of time in 6 on 2 situations with my buddy where I'm running around with low health trying to eat cleaves so every little bit helps. I have good dps on my team to do damage. My focus is on keeping them alive to do it.

Well, that is why I say I asked if he was joking on the first line. And about the fact that DPS can or not have guard, honestly doesn't bother me. On TR, that never happens. On SR either tell him/her to stop guarding or tell the one that is being guarded to click off the guard buff so you do it. On regs, its almost impossible to control. Yeah, its annoying but somewhat pointless to remove. All that is required to do is to tell people that they are donig it wrong.

If they listened sure XD

Anyway I said thst to illustrate what you're saying which is basically that it's stupid to guard as a dps spec in general. Also if they do help the dps specs defensives, they shouldn't be able to tank as well as a tank can.

Yes, skank burst is on par with Arsenal, especially without the setbonus autocrit. Especially Jugg burst.

And give a merc a guard and he could tank as well as me. Also comparing with set bonus to without set bonus isn't fair. I also don't buy it since I PvP with an arsenal merc regularly.

Total damage done =/= burst.

Maybe it's a difference in gearing then. I've done all the situations and not broken 8k. I also consider survival and annoyance more important than damage.

Wonders of full DPS.

If you're doing more damage than 2 dps they're guarding, dying quickly or often, or are just bad.

No, it does not mean they are bad. It happens frequently, trust me, unless one of the teams has 2 ranged DPS, which in this case, yeah, they are bad. 2 Ranged DPS should never stay close to each other. Now, for example, Sniper + Mara. Just keep yourself as much as possible close to the sniper, mara will come closer, inevitably, and you'll reach those numbers easily. Even against proper teams.

I mentioned this because there's a huge gap between the defensives of say a dps sorc and a dps merc. Merc, sniper, and mara (idk I don't see many operative dps) are in a much better spot than dps specs of the tank capable classes or dps sorcs. For people to not go skank on their wannabee dps, I think equalizing this field would help.

I like to keep the topic about the Shank(same as skank but using proper term) tanks if possible. One shouldn't dwell onto other classes. Some classes should be able to counter others. Yes, Sorcerer is in a shameful place right now but we are assuming that FOTM is going to be used, so it is either sniper, mara, dot sin, merc arsenal and nothing more, as DPS, that is.

If they listened sure XD

Anyway I said thst to illustrate what you're saying which is basically that it's stupid to guard as a dps spec in general. Also if they do help the dps specs defensives, they shouldn't be able to tank as well as a tank can.

Well, all about talking to them, nothing more can be done here. Also, guarding as DPS isn't as bad as it seems. Or at least in some cases but one can see easily it doesn't happen that often. Sniper guarding node, random DPS casts a guard on it. Some sneaky operative/assassin comes close trying a solo steal cap, sees the guard buff, will think there's a stealth nearby but far from the defending player, which makes them hesitate for a while. Did this with a friend and its surprisingly effective, against the experience players, because they do think there's someone there aside from the one guarding. In actual fight, yes, I agree. Just never guard.

Okay lets take a look at why Skank tanks are broken. I will be referencing RANKED PVP. Especially group ranked because in regs skank tanks don’t really matter.

 

First, lets talk about how each tank spec gets a damage buff to one of their main AOE attacks. For example, PT tank gets a 100% damage bonus to Firestorm. A skank tank PT can hit 8 enemies for 25-30k damage with firestorm. Its essentially smash monkey 2.0. Granted, it has to crit on all 8 people but it does a lot of damage without crit. It can crit for 13-15k on a normal PT tank. Same with jugg and sin. Depredating volts can crit back to back for 18k. It hits 4 times so essentially a sin tank can do ~50k damage or so with 3 stacks of the damage buff. Not to mention that sin tanks have the highest mitigation possible.

 

In group ranked, teams run 2 skank tanks, 1 healer, and a high burst dps (like mm sniper or arsenal merc). The tanks never have to switch guard. Both tanks cc everyone and then jump on a target, each do 25-30k crushing blows (so about 50-60k damage) and the sniper or merc does an additional 30k damage (now up to 90k damage). By that time you’re dead. The fact that a T A N K can do burst dps like that is insane. They just global everyone into the dirt and you cannot do anything about it.

 

Now lets talk about how all tanks get AOE heal reduction. Two skank tanks can apply a constant 20% heal reduction on a whole team. This means that healing output from your healer is constantly reduced to low numbers. The skank tanksm burst will overwhelm your healer and you will die.

 

On top of all of this, 2 skank tanks in a granked team have the survivability bonuses of a tank, while retaining stupid levels of dps output.

 

Are skank tank teams possible to beat? Yes. However, it’s very difficult and the average team who hasn’t been playing granked together forever will not beat a good skank tank team. Dps output against skank tank teams can be reduced by ~80% due to skank tanks constantly taunting each dps and no guard swaps. You could be doing 5.5k dps realistically but with that guard and taunt always up, you’ll be doing 2k dps. This wouldn’t be a problem with 2 normal tanks because normal tanks do not have the capability to global someone.

 

So please tell me why skank tanks aren’t the problem?

This is the best post in this topic so far, shows a good understanding of ranked and especially of improved AOE, which is the main cause of the skank tank problem we face now. Old skank tanks were DPS specs using tank stance to get more DR and guard, they benefited from the DPS spec and the tanking tools. Tanks however have always used DPS gear in PvP, so that isn't what changed, its 5.0 buffing tank AOE.

My fix, either nerf tank AOE damage or remove the AOE from certain tank attacks, although limit it to PvP as the purpose of buffing tank AOE was obviously to make picking up adds easier in PvE. Do that and you'll see damage numbers drop back to where they should be.

Juggs will still have good burst for tanks but they are also the easiest tank to kite so that's a give and take situation, while PT's and Sins will go back to what they were pre 5.0, which was good at appying pressure since they have many 10 meter attacks but not straight up murdering teams with powerful AOE.

EDIT: For specifics? Reword Crushing Blow and Firestorm to specify they get their AOE and Damage bonuses only against non player enemies. So in PvP, Crushing Blow can only be a single target attack, and Firestorm does 100% less damage. For Sins, remove the AOE capability of Wither, if they're seen to be overperforming (I know they aren't as bad as Jugg/PT). Finally, if those 3 changes aren't enough, reduce the damage of 1 more AOE attack for each spec by x amount only in PvP scenarios. That should basically cover it.

And if Jugg burst specifically is still too high, you could lower Crushing Blow damage overall in PvP scenarios. But again, these need to be PvP only changes, if you apply them to PvE you'll have less people wanting to play these classes there, where they're already unpopular compared to DPS.

All that being said, if your opinion is the real problem being tanks have no use for tank stats in PvP, that's been the game design since launch and would require drastic changes to how mitigation works to fix, not to mention completely alter the way PvP is played. I don't think that's realistic, I think its better to simply address the problem introduced in 5.0 (tank AOE being improved too much).

Just remove the tank tclasses from PVP. Everyone should be playing a Mara , Merc , Op or Sniper by now anyhow. This game going to end before they fix the other classes sol let’s not waste anymore time on it

This seems to be what they want to happen...

I really just be missing something seeing as I've been a tank main for literal years and haven't out bursted a dps if any form.

Again: TOTAL damage done =/= burst

This seems to be what they want to happen...

I really just be missing something seeing as I've been a tank main for literal years and haven't out bursted a dps if any form.

 

Again: TOTAL damage done =/= burst

This is kind of wrong, Jugg tank in the short term can actually outburst Jugg DPS right now, especially Vengeance. Crushing Blow can hit 25k, which isn't as hard as Furious Strike which can see 30k+, but they also get a proc'd Retaliation which is off the GCD and can crit for around 12k itself, that's 37k damage in 1 GCD, more than your typical Ambush from a Sniper.

The difference is Jugg tank doesn't have nearly as much sustained especially with the nerf to the Chilling Scream damage, so if you can play around Crushing Blows... except, there's no cast for Crushing Blow or indication its coming, so its not really something you can play around. I love my Jugg but I can admit Crushing Blow is ridiculously powerful right now.