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One reason there is a tank shortage in group finder

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
One reason there is a tank shortage in group finder

SharpG's Avatar


SharpG
12.31.2012 , 06:51 PM | #101
It sounds like people need to try doing things like 16 man nightmare EC before becoming all high and mighty about their role being superior to others. All it takes is one person, regardless of role, to screw up and you wipe the entire group when it comes to progression raiding and the challenging PvE content.

arunav's Avatar


arunav
01.01.2013 , 12:05 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Jedirep View Post
My thoughts on tanking in this game.

I just got a Jedi guardian to level 50 a couple of days ago and I must say tanking is pretty hard in this game. Let me compare it to world of warcraft tanking (I know you guys are sick of hearing that game's name frankly I am too). I've tanked successfully in world of warcraft for over two years. On my level 90 Paladin, and back in cataclysm on my 85 Warrior. Tanking it seems in wow is 50 times easier because you actually have the skills and the complexity of the stats that help you out. There are more aoe tank buttons to press that helps you keep high aggro on multiple mobs at once.

I think a mistake was adding the lazy button. For a Jedi Guardian "Soresu Form" and for a Trooper "Ion Cell." These skills tell me that they didn't want to think of a more complex way of tanking, and or having skills that deal high threat while having optimized aoe tanking. To me this just says, "If you want to tank, press this button and your good to go." There's no attribute stacking, or complexity of skills that noticeably make you a more effective tank.

I know there's like absorption rating, and defensive rating but how effective are these if you really stack them, and can you stack them? WoW just feels more fluid with the character movements and engaging pulls while tanking.

In my opinion they have a lot more work to do not only with tanking but with adding a more complex stat system. I think that might be a contributing factor as to why there is a shortage of tanks.
I think you need to play your Guardian for more than a few days to get good at tanking in the endgame instances. Yes, stacking your defensive attributes helps, as does gearing the correct types of armorings, hilts, crystals, etc.

That said, Guardian tanking is arguably the most difficult for maintaining aggro. It's a lot easier on a Shadow, and I haven't played a Vanguard, but that's supposedly the dummy-proof tank class.

If you're under the impression that simply switching stances will make you a tank in SWTOR, you're not going to have a very fun time, and your group will wipe. You need to build your character properly. The stance is simply there to differentiate it from the DPS builds.

As for tanking-specific skills, there's an entire tree for each tanking class, including aoe attacks that generate threat. What is your build?

jedimasterjac's Avatar


jedimasterjac
01.01.2013 , 12:08 AM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by mokkh View Post
Funny you mention Kaon. I've had 4-5 tanks drop out of group upon entering the instance in the past week. One of these tick turds did so to the group I ended up joining as a tank through the instance. Imagine queuing for an hour to be one of 3 people left holding the bag before you even get to start.

In fact I had a dropout today on my sniper, first the tank dropped Kaon on zone in, then one dps dc'd. The sorc and I 2-manned it all the way to the cannon part, tried it and wiped. So we just chatted for a bit, an hour after we started (that's 2 hours for me since originally joining queue) 2 reasonable people show up and we trounce the remainder of the instance without incident. Ended up making friends with a damn good player out of it so wasn't all bad, but was a ridiculous expenditure of time for 5 bh comms.

Battle of Ilum: Assassasin tank decides to leave two people who had never been there behind and then drops group after multiple wipes saying crap like "I f******g hate you. F*****g die" to these hapless people in the group. I end up having to coach these two on my healer through the rest of the instance using my dps comp as tank, we beat it an hour later. One was 14k using all recruit and the other was a self-proclaimed pvper who had recruit/columi mix, it was a mess to be sure but they were actually happy to finish it and said they learned something.

The point: It's not just dps or heals that are crap to deal with, plenty of tanks get credit there too. For the record, I have 8 50s: 3 tanks (shadow, vanny, jugg), 3 dps (sent,sniper,merc), and 2 heals (sorc, sawbones) across factions. I do 4-7 random hms almost everyday, all are pugs and solo queued. I've paid my dues using the groupfinder, and the kicker is: as bad as this community can be it's still head and shoulders above the bs I went through in WoW.

It's not enough to say that there is a singular reason for a shortage of tanks when the reality is that there's a shortage of quality players (or players unwilling to learn), maybe all we need are more veteran players with the patience to set an example to follow.
Really? Kaon isn't that difficultt. I tanked it in a Tionese\Recruit mix. Didn't die once, and we had 2 peeps who had never done it before.
Quote: Originally Posted by Grand Master Yoda
We are what they grow beyond. That is the burden of all masters.

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
01.01.2013 , 12:22 AM | #104
The part with Extricate has made me laugh
Quote: Originally Posted by EricMusco View Post
Scatter Bombs are meant to be a fun bit of extra damage that occurs when you roll into or away from the action. That said, we’re okay with you trapping an unsuspecting enemy for a “wall bang” every now and then.

mokkh's Avatar


mokkh
01.01.2013 , 12:41 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by jedimasterjac View Post
Really? Kaon isn't that difficultt. I tanked it in a Tionese\Recruit mix. Didn't die once, and we had 2 peeps who had never done it before.
And yet people have been dropping it like a rock left and right. After that post I've had healers vanish after zone in as well. No idea why, kaon is not my favorite instance by any means but its not worth dropping before the get go.

Psyclic's Avatar


Psyclic
01.01.2013 , 12:47 AM | #106
I don't usually PUG anything on my main tank (dread guard geared) but on my Shadow tank I have only just hit 50 so I am still going through GF to get more comm's. What I have resorted to is creating a text file and copy and paste it into chat saying something like this:
Hi, I'm <Charactername> and I'll be you tank today
I will always pull, do not pull for me, if you think I am going slow it is probably because I am waiting on healer resources or health to be on full
Markings will be
<insert your preferences for cc markings>
DPS are responsible for picking up standard and silver mobs, if an elite is CC'd and you break CC more than twice I will not taunt it off you and I will leave it at the healers discretion as to whether they feel like healing you.
I am not doing this to be an ***** but to ensure this is a smooth run.

This reduces issues on runs and makes sure people know what is going on. Healers not healing is an issue that just needs to be called out early. I usually say "I don't seem to be getting a lot of heals, while I appreciate you assisting with DPS I would prefer that job is left to the DPS and we all stay alive"

Sorry to those tanks out there that think it isn't our job to run the group but it is, especially in PUG's. In our Op's we actually have a DPS as our raid lead but in Op's I personally prefer a rDPS as a raid lead as they can see more of the battle field than what I can......which is usually a large helping of boss crotch.
<Reverence> Dalborra
Psyclic | Saerah | Seelah | Zi'Lanna | Chartre | Vires
“Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.”

DragooGC's Avatar


DragooGC
01.01.2013 , 04:42 AM | #107
I play a healer (Operative) now, but have run my Shadow as a tank. Therefore, I know both sides of the story. I have even ran my Operative and Shadow as DPS.
I Pug a lot seeing how my Guild is small and I am still collecting BH comms.
As some people say, sometimes you get a bad PUG sometimes you get a good PUG.
I really know I am in a bad PUG when I have to cloak to drop agro.
When I am in a good PUG, my energy stays full every stay alive and I can contribute to the DPS.

Most of my PUGS have been good. When I am Healing, I have yet been bashed for my ability. Now I have been told that it seems that I maybe a little under geared for this (HM LI), but that has since changed although I am still working on gear and tweaking it.

I don’t bash other players either, but may put in comments like "18k damage <boss> does is a little hard to heal someone might want to interrupt that"
when I do get a good tank I always complement them on a gj (in a WZ if I see protection points for using Guard they always get my vote, unless I have a guild member there with me then they get my vote ... it’s a loyalty thing).
If I get a not so good tank, I am always happy giving advice (if they will hear it)
<No Fear Dojo> Sith Empire <Galactic Council> Republic Dreamweave-Operative HealerDragoe-Shadow Tank(Shadowlands)
THERE IS NO FEAR IN THIS DOJO!!http://youtu.be/w3XH3EhOkHM

MitchPB's Avatar


MitchPB
01.01.2013 , 05:29 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
Possible Solution: Default Tanks to the Group Leader Position in group finder groups. If the Tank is getting abused the abussive player can be removed BY THE TANK. *Evil Grin*
I like how this man thinks
<BOG><Failure><It's Lit>

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
01.01.2013 , 06:09 AM | #109
Issue is :


There is just as many bad tanks as there are bad players.

Perhaps a BIT less % of the tank are idiot, compared to % of DPS, since many people just like "damage".

But a fair bit have NO idea of what they are doing, and think that simply having the rotation down is fine.

Its not. You need a plan when pulling to keep threat on you. Thats your job. Keep enough threat so that :

1-Healer can heal in peace with no pushback
2-Gear permitting, DPS can go all the way on a gold or champion mob without suddenly getting mean loving.

Strongs, tank if possible. I got a sintank, I have no issues tanking strongs and elites. I even manage to give a passing blow to normals often, and tank a whole group.

DPS that are not half stupid, as said previously in the threat most likely, will make shortwork of thrash. If you got a sorc/sage dps in your team, don't even bother touching them. And surprisingly, healers sorc/sage actually have the best force storm/Groundquake, so once their revification/salavation is down, they can easily take that break in direct healing to kill/stun those guys. That leaves the 2 DPS 2 target to take down, or one take them down and other start focusing the bigger mobs.


I rarely have issues with healers heals themselves. Often they'll just stick a bit too much to that, but its better than not enough, so I make no complain. A healer that helps with stuns, CC, and dps when able (and know when or when not to dps) is much more rare.

But mostly what I see as issues (read "the bads) in PuG:


=Tanks=

-Many don't want to admit they don't know fight. Even after asking everyone if they knew fight, I was stuck explaining Soa's 3rd phase to BOTH tank IN soa's 3rd phase. We managed to finally beat him with a good 3 minute against an enraged him, and because the dps where quick on mindtraps and soa when availaible, and healers where grossly overgeared for SM EV, keeping up very impressively with the damage the tanks where taking from that pissed off ( read enraged) oversized rakata. They finally died, and I sacrified my sorc to drag him under the final pillar, we got it VERY closely, and its a run where DPS and heals where top notch, safe maybe 1 dps who was struggling.

Other thing : they seem unaware defensive cooldowns are not all OH-CRAP buttons. Some are to be kept that way, others are not. Know fight, if a spike is predictible (like foreman crusher's frenzies) you keep them for it. Otherwise, don't hesitate to use them to help your healers take a breather, in AoE phase, where some dps won't have such cd and will need more heals etc.


=DPS=

Frankly? Both great people, and very dumb people here. Many just break CCs, don't know the meaning of "no AoE in next fight, CC present" or overall have no judgement.

Others are just craptastic, and pulls abysmal numbers for their gear. When a DPS sorc in columni outdps and outhreat a mara in BH/DG with Cloud mind on CD while the mara is blissfully unaware of force camouflage, I say someone's crap at their class.

Good DPS are not necessarely the one that pulls the most raw dps. Its the one that adapts, that know tactics more than just "Me DPS big guy, UGH!" stuns targets, protect ally if need be (offheal, shield etc) and show a good grasp of common sense and teamplay. I'll take a 1,2k dps that does that over a 2,2k one that doesnt drop aggro because he somehow grow stiff somewhere when pulling from the tank and is dumb as crap any days.

Do understand : sometime it WILL happen even a good dps will make a mistake (CC too early, pull a group he didn't see, or break a CC due to a mistabbing or an auto-target after a target dies) what counts is they are not something that KEEP happening.



=Healers=

Rotation issues, if its an healing problem (mostly see sorc that do not use the barrier as part of their rotation enough, or don't drop revification on CD, even if its just for the tank.

Otherwise, as stated, some just get blindsided to anything that isnt healing. You can still add affliction to a boss, throw in an extra 100-200 dps if possible to pick up any slack dps might get, or just overall help. All healers have CCs, stuns etc. Use them.

In a PuG, if the tank is decent, he is your best friend. Safe for enrage timer, you can literally do everything just the two of you. DPS are there for efficiency, of course, and are still important, but they are linked to progression, not keeping group alive. I will, when playing DPS, not hesitate to sacrifice myself for the healer if tank drop one, weither due to badness, or just a mistake. That big hitting elite is gunning down healer and tank didnt see? I'll build threat on him, CC or stun if possible. Better me than him, and still going to resume dpsing the target we need down even if I'm dying.

Mostly thats what I see : lack of cooperation between tank and healer, they don't know each other, they don't make the necessary pressure on a dps that doesnt understand his job (which is letting him die after a few times happening)

Only once I saw a really noob healer, that was actually a dps who tought he could heal HM D7 with 2,5 sec DI, and another who just claimed that his tank was so good (they were both in the same guild) he was bored and mostly dpsed.

Tank died twice, and not due to gear issues.




=In general?=
Mostly communication. Don't be afraid to show leadership, it does NOT mean you are trying to one up your teammates, but that you truly care for the smooth run.

In THEORY tank are looked up to. They start pulls, they often deal with the more complex mechanics, and know the bigger pictures behind them. But that doesn't mean a DPS cannnot have the obviously better knowledge or leadership skill, either because he tanks with an alt, or IS a tank's alt.

My main is a sintank, but I'm playing my dps sorc just as much. On a lot of SM ops pug I do, I end up ops leader.

Not because I'm the "most knowledgeable" but because I care about the group, I ask everyone if they are good with fight, and explain to them if they don't. Newbie is not a fault, its a status. Stupid is another thing.

I also play my role, but assist others (offheal? Static barrier to save healer some ressources? Adds (that class is perhaps the ultimate thrash cleaner you can have) extrication on a dps that keeps pulling over the tank's threat, despite using his threat dump on cd?)

So communicate, assign CC signs, and a focus fire sign if needed.

Some PuGs are unredeemable. But some are worth working with, and you meet great people, just as much as you meet less than great ones.

Arlbo_Nabbins's Avatar


Arlbo_Nabbins
01.01.2013 , 06:30 AM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by Ravagexe View Post
PUG's are a living nightmare in this game. Any sane person should avoid it.
I disagree, I have been gearing my Guardian in Black Hole by running FPs via the group finder, almost everyone I have grouped with has been fine and the majority of runs have been quick and straightforward.