For all of you darkness tanks or w/e the sith equivalent of the shadow kinetic tree is. We all know that Kinetic ward/ Dark Ward sucks as a aoe mitigation "shield". With only 8 charges, in a aoe focus fire pull those charges gets eaten in less then a second. Then we are left there with a 12 sec cd with 22% shield chance which is a life time in a pull.

So i made a thread to seek a change in this skill in the suggestion box.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=231811

voice your concerns and let that thread stay up as long is it as too so someone looks at it and realizes we need a change.

Good Hunting

Where are you pulling this 22% number from? In 2 piece PVE gear you can get DW up to 20% (+5% from 2 piece bonus).

my current shield chance without DW/KW up is only 24%.

I have 57.7% shield with Dark ward, and if it drops for one or 2 seconds so what... it should never drop more than that since you shouldn't pull an aoe group right after you refresh it, and you can use deflection to carry your charges out longer so they stay up longer.

but thats the thing. Shadows can't pull an aoe group without deflection up. Any other tank can pull a group without a CD and without worry of their shield chances dropping.

The only tank that needs to worry about that is us and thats not balanced at all.

What you say windfall is true we can still do that but being that we have to just to be on par with other tanks isn't what bioware wants. Like they stated they want every class to be balanced so you can play what you want but thats not the case with us.

Even juggernauts and guardians are having problems with aoe threat but thats another issue that i keep hearing about also. Vanguards/powertechs are perfect the way they are now.

my current shield chance without DW/KW up is only 24%.

So I asked where you pulled this 22% number and are telling me that your base shield chance is 24%?

Did you mean 22%? Or did you mean 24% originally?

Might want to try raising that 24% up, defense caps at 30% and starts hitting diminishing returns around 23%. Shield/Absorb cap at 50% and hit diminishing returns around 45%. Since we have such a high base defense, we don't need to concentrate on +def as hard as you might think, however most sin/shadow tanks still do. Thus we take spiky damage when our shields are down.

What we want to do is smooth that damage down, on the two roll system you want to get the most efficient use of your stat points. Thus if you are at 22% +def or 44% +shield/absorb, then you should concentrate your stat point allotment elsewhere to help smooth your damage.

Assuming you are at 22% +def or higher:

If you are serious about tanking you use a Fort Stim (provides 43 defense, Rakata Fort Stim is 56), you can't get any other secondary tanking stat from a stim. You want to use that to your advantage, if you are at 22% +def or higher then you can swap out that 43 +def because you are going to hit diminishing returns if you don't. Those 43 stat points are equivalent to another 2% shield chance.

Go get your Rakata implants from dailies. That's 4% shield chance right there.

If you have really high absorb you may want to bring that number down and add some +shield. Mod your gear as you see fit, but the reality is you really do need more +shield. 24% is just not enough to tank effectively.

Currently with stim I'm sitting at

25% def

32% shield

44% absorb

I'm still working on my second Rakata implant so those number will change shortly to:

24.5% def

34% shield

44% absorb

As I've mentioned elsewhere, yes DW/KW falling off rapidly is a problem. A problem with many possible developer side solutions. But we are looking past the end of our nose here if we don't understand how we can make sin/shadow tanking better right now.

So I asked where you pulled this 22% number and are telling me that your base shield chance is 24%?

 

Did you mean 22%? Or did you mean 24% originally?

 

Might want to try raising that 24% up, defense caps at 30% and starts hitting diminishing returns around 23%. Shield/Absorb cap at 50% and hit diminishing returns around 45%. Since we have such a high base defense, we don't need to concentrate on +def as hard as you might think, however most sin/shadow tanks still do. Thus we take spiky damage when our shields are down.

 

What we want to do is smooth that damage down, on the two roll system you want to get the most efficient use of your stat points. Thus if you are at 22% +def or 44% +shield/absorb, then you should concentrate your stat point allotment elsewhere to help smooth your damage.

 

Assuming you are at 22% +def or higher:

 

If you are serious about tanking you use a Fort Stim (provides 43 defense, Rakata Fort Stim is 56), you can't get any other secondary tanking stat from a stim. You want to use that to your advantage, if you are at 22% +def or higher then you can swap out that 43 +def because you are going to hit diminishing returns if you don't. Those 43 stat points are equivalent to another 2% shield chance.

 

Go get your Rakata implants from dailies. That's 4% shield chance right there.

 

If you have really high absorb you may want to bring that number down and add some +shield. Mod your gear as you see fit, but the reality is you really do need more +shield. 24% is just not enough to tank effectively.

 

Currently with stim I'm sitting at

25% def

32% shield

44% absorb

 

I'm still working on my second Rakata implant so those number will change shortly to:

 

24.5% def

34% shield

44% absorb

 

As I've mentioned elsewhere, yes DW/KW falling off rapidly is a problem. A problem with many possible developer side solutions. But we are looking past the end of our nose here if we don't understand how we can make sin/shadow tanking better right now.

all that aside what you said on the last paragraph is all the matters. Are we broken class no we aren't just no on par with the others in AOE pull. The issue that i'm really trying to fix is the DW/KW falling off rapidly as you stated. Thats all i care about, That right there.

The KW/DW is my only concern at this moment. Can i still tank groups? Sure but i would like it if KW/DW didnt drop like flies.

My question is what pulls are you talking about that DW falls off too fast, which encounter are you talking about? Even the packs of AOE dogs etc in EV don't make my DW fall off usually (I have ~28% defense, 37.5% shield (57.5% with DW) and 38% absorb)...

Defense since it is the first roll is useful in keeping it up, use your electrocute and your spike to reduce hits even more and I just have not found a single encounter where (with a little pre planning) I had trouble keeping DW up so far in this game, outside of pvp with 2-3 mercs shooting at me etc.

I'm not trying to say you don't have a point (I'd love not having to spam energy on DW... more pew pew) but I just don't see where the fight currently exists that we lose DW completely for more than 1-2 seconds in the game as it exists today (unless you face pull a second group).

My question is what pulls are you talking about that DW falls off too fast, which encounter are you talking about? Even the packs of AOE dogs etc in EV don't make my DW fall off usually (I have ~28% defense, 37.5% shield (57.5% with DW) and 38% absorb)...

 

Defense since it is the first roll is useful in keeping it up, use your electrocute and your spike to reduce hits even more and I just have not found a single encounter where (with a little pre planning) I had trouble keeping DW up so far in this game, outside of pvp with 2-3 mercs shooting at me etc.

I seriously do not know how you didnt come to this problem yet. All the other shadows/ assassins i know know this is a fact. Yes there a way around it but KW/DW is useless in focus fire groups. Have you ever pulled a group of 3 gunner type mods who are all raining on you with unload? DW gets eaten up in seconds cause of that.

kragga palace second boss can drop dark ward in matter of seconds, many aoe pulls in that op do the same, kaon big pulls do the same, here and there there are champs who eat our ward for breakfast

 

true that generally you can cc, but in op, if you have good dps you can just aoe them and save time... i dont think it is really a proof of balance if 1 tank need cc to be good while another doesnt

^^

this happens all the time. i just want KW/DW to be reworked is all. No harm of foul

all that aside what you said on the last paragraph is all the matters. Are we broken class no we aren't just no on par with the others in AOE pull. The issue that i'm really trying to fix is the DW/KW falling off rapidly as you stated. Thats all i care about, That right there.

 

The KW/DW is my only concern at this moment. Can i still tank groups? Sure but i would like it if KW/DW didnt drop like flies.

are they on par with us with self healing?

are they on par with us with self healing?

our self healing is just another form of mitigation. Juggernauts get endure pain which is basically another form of "self healing" as some people like to call it. I call it keeping head of the curve.

If you have worries about the self healing we have then make a thread that all tanks should get self healing as well.

How about we have the KW/DW stay as it is but with no charges.

Because of the bigger boost to shield, I'd rather have it changed slightly to maybe have a few more charges, or a way to replenish charges and duration... I actually support removing the recast timer on it, that way for true AOE pulls we can sacrifice agro and damage for keeping it up... I think that would be a pretty balanced solution.

I would think that making it 12 charges, lasting 30 seconds, but with a 5 second cooldown etc would be very fair, if you spam it you will waste energy and be inefficient, but with 12 charges available every 5 seconds, you should never run out.

As for unload spam, I guess I've just gotten used to having a relic up for those situations, and having self heal up if it does drop a bit early. I generaly don't trigger my force lightning as soon as it hits 3 charges but rather wait for a time when I need the heal to do it, and I like to use it in conjunction with overload saber... For AOE packs, they take long enough to kill that deflection is pretty much up for every pull, and the odd one where its not up, I can always force speed away for long enough to get a few heals if needed

The could keep the basic mechanic and just add an internal cooldown (such as many other abilities have) to the removal of charges. If they just made it so that could not lose more one charge every 1.5 seconds, regardless of how many times you shield, then the 8 charges should last the entire 12 second ability cooldown.

They could keep their whole "short-duration buff with charges" mechanic without hurting our ability to tank large trash pulls. This solution would also have basically no impact on our ability to tank most bosses.

The could keep the basic mechanic and just add an internal cooldown (such as many other abilities have) to the removal of charges. If they just made it so that could not lose more one charge every 1.5 seconds, regardless of how many times you shield, then the 8 charges should last the entire 12 second ability cooldown.

 

They could keep their whole "short-duration buff with charges" mechanic without hurting our ability to tank large trash pulls. This solution would also have basically no impact on our ability to tank most bosses.

The problem with this idea is that at that point its really just pressing a button every 12 seconds. There's no risk involved.

Once you are just pressing a button every 12 seconds for the sake of simply pressing that button with risk or reward, then you might as well just not have a button at all. Its adding complexity without risk and thus without reward. Its simply not exciting and that's why devices like this idea have all but been removed from MMO gaming.

The problem with this idea is that at that point its really just pressing a button every 12 seconds. There's no risk involved.

 

Once you are just pressing a button every 12 seconds for the sake of simply pressing that button with risk or reward, then you might as well just not have a button at all. Its adding complexity without risk and thus without reward. Its simply not exciting and that's why devices like this idea have all but been removed from MMO gaming.

right holy shield for paladins in wow was like this but also gave a chance to do damage also. Future patches made the whole thing a passive instead.

The problem with this idea is that at that point its really just pressing a button every 12 seconds. There's no risk involved.

 

Once you are just pressing a button every 12 seconds for the sake of simply pressing that button with risk or reward, then you might as well just not have a button at all. Its adding complexity without risk and thus without reward. Its simply not exciting and that's why devices like this idea have all but been removed from MMO gaming.

By this logic, we shouldn't have press any buttons to maintain a normal rotation either, since there's no risk and it's not exciting. Just pressing a button every 1.5 seconds for the sake of pressing buttons...

By this logic, we shouldn't have press any buttons to maintain a normal rotation either, since there's no risk and it's not exciting.

you know what he meant, dont be silly. The whole activate your defense while other tanks get it passive is an outdated skill.

you know what he meant, dont be silly. The whole activate your defense while other tanks get it passive is an outdated skill.

I guess I'm the only person it doesn't bother. It doesn't even take a GCD or anything... I can't understand why people are so bothered by it.

These games all come down to pushing buttons in the right order. One more button to push = who cares?

guess you didnt read the whole thing about focus fire pulls eat the charges like candy.

And besides that i don't understand why the minority of people don't want this either a passive or a toggle. This isn't the real reason i want it to change but its a bonus that i dont need to keep pressing it everytime just to keep my shield chance up. I see no downside to this at all

guess you didnt read the whole thing about focus fire pulls eat the charges like candy.

 

And besides that i don't understand why the minority of people don't want this either a passive or a toggle. This isn't the real reason i want it to change but its a bonus that i dont need to keep pressing it everytime just to keep my shield chance up. I see no downside to this at all

I guess you didn't read the part where I have a solution to the focus fire problem without changing the mechanic if the mechanic is something the devs are set on.

I guess you didn't read the part where I have a solution to the focus fire problem without changing the mechanic if the mechanic is something the devs are set on.

blowing CD for trash pulls is not balanced at all. Sorry but its not when my guardian/vanguard dont need to pop a CD or CC to soak up damage like a champ. What you consider a solution is a merely a way to make us viable enough to be on par with the other tanks. Which in fact they don't need to do pop CD or CC. The fact that we do isn't balanced and bioware as stated they wanted all classes to be balanced.

On a bonus we have one less thing to keep our eyes on on the healthbar. Well you do not want the change obviously but the majority of us do and thats why i made these threads on the shadow/here/ suggestion box to get bioware to look at this.

Happily theres a lot of supporters for this change even among the "hardcore" players.