I hate to use WoW as a reference for my post but if there are any real gamers out there left they will understand. First of all this post is just my observation it's not based on any fact or stats it's just what I have seen over the years of being a online gamer.

 

Back in the early days WoW was to the online gaming world what SWTOR is attempting to be now. There was nothing out there like it. From day one it had so many bugs so many fixes actually getting a full day of gaming in was next to impossible, my point is through all of that we stuck it out and no one can argue with the numbers that game achieved as far as player base.

 

During the life of the game many things a lot of us play for today were introduced, if you remember those early Molten Core (MC) runs you know what I'm talking about, The Grind. MC made a lot of old gamers fall in love with gaming. Back in those days you had to put in work to get the things you wanted. A group of individuals spent countless hours on encounter after encounter repair run after repair run trying to master that instance. Sacrifices were made, the raid was suppose to end at 11 but its pushing 1 am you got to be up for work in 4 hours and everyone was like lets give it one more try we got him to 40% that time we can do better. What happened to those gamers?

 

As I read these forums I wonder why some of the people making post on here even game. I got beat by so and so, my DPS is too low, this is over powered, I got nerfed, the post seem to be endless, it has become so bad I can tell by the Title weather its worthy of my time to even read. When did gaming become an entitlement?

 

Yes in the game I have been face rolled many times by another player, OP's have stunned locked me to death, Sorc's have nuked me to death, Bh's have tracer missile me to death, I think I have been on the receiving end of every possible kind of death you can think of and through sheer determination and player skill I have worked my way to a point where I can make all of those classes pay for all those face rolls I received. I didn't think the problem was with my class I can do damage just like he can, I didn't think it was with my gear ( hard work deserves just reward and if you took the time no matter how you did it to get the gear before I did then thats my fault) but because I know your better geared than me all that tells me is I got to work harder to get that kill and if you have the skill to kill a better geared player then welcome to what online gaming is all about. The better gear comes with the work and makes your job easier but a skilled player can adapt until he's better geared.

 

There is a catch though and I think this is were a lot of the problems stim from and why people cry. If you run into a skilled player that has taken the time to get geared now you have a nightmare on your hands, and this situation makes the less geared less skilled player feel very small, and then they hit the forums and the tears start to flow. Online gaming will never be fair because all gamers are not created equal, you can't key bind like I do, I can't react as fast as you can all these things factor into the game they make a huge difference. WHich brings me back to an earlier point The Grind. You have to work at getting better, you have to learn from every encounter how to counter everything. When you get beat don't look at what the other person had on the question is what did I do wrong and how do I get him next time.

 

During your learning curb you will get better, as you spend time getting better so will your gear and before you know it you will be enjoying your game a lot better. I don't win all the time I don't expect to but a lot of people do but the simple fact is there will always be that one guy that's better than you, that's the guy I'm constantly looking for, that's how you improve you game.

 

I know this was a long read and thank you for taking time out of your day to hear my thoughts. to those of you that can relate to what I'm trying to say keep on grinding and to those who will no doubt troll me the time your spending here crying could be better spent improving you skills. Have fun. I'll see ya in a Huttball!!!!

(This thread doesn't belong in the Sniper channel)

 

 

People grow up.

 

There's a new generation of gamers, that's why things seam different. Nostalgia is great, but you'll never get the same as what you had in WoW.

 

 

Personally, I played WoW in vanilla up until about 10 months ago. I've been through what you said, the endless grind to finish that raid and sacrifices and such. The feeling of accomplishment from a video game is not as rewarding to me as it was over 6 years ago. Priorities change and hence people change.

Honestly when it came to WoW my intention was to play it only until something better came along. I preferred SWG or CoH over wow but those games either died do to extreme changes (my class didn't even exist any longer in SWG with the NGE system being added) or in CoH's instance it peaked and once you got to 50 there was literally nothing much else to do.

 

However to your subject of what has happened...WoW happened, the game became easier over time because the developers felt it was a waste of time to build up and create high level raids that only 10% if that of the community would see. BC was easier than Vanilla...Wrath was extremly easier than BC (to the point of being good at ccing was a wasted skill because everything was aoe'ed.) Then cataclysm came and made tanking very easy and CCing really easy with polymorph no longer aggroing, ice traps being shot onto or directly infront of targets requiring very little true skill to use. (I remember times where I would misdirect my target to my pet who was LOS from the mob and his path would take him into my trap).

 

Little things like that dumbed down games and then add that into how easy gear became by grinding heroics for badges to get complete sets rather than fillers like in BC. People became complacent...things have to be easy. Honestly I prefer the wipes and actually being rewarded with gear...but its obvious those days are gone from the rampant complaints of balancing classes so that content can become a bit more challenging....who cares if people were solo healing hardmode ops. Who cares if resource managment was not an issue...that was my class you just nerfed is the attitude MMO communities seem to have.

 

Even this rant is wrong to some extent...the soar thumb stands out from the crowd. Even if its the same soar thumb 10 times in 5 different threads. Thats what I think we are witnessing. Forum population rarley reflects the majority of the forum goers (most people are just looking for info and not posting) and it reflects less of the games population because most of the people who play the game don't want to visit the forums.

 

Either way forum communities seem to have broke down in games...it could be because server populations are just so high now that you don't make contacts you use to make in games. It could also be that this forum really has a poor system set up for server community buidling (ie no private forums for individual servers). It could also be that few games are developing the global systems games like COH where if you made a global friend with someone you knew all of the characters they were on. WoW brought that back near the end of Wrath but by that time community already had its cliques.

WoW was not the first . If you are talking real gamers, it's not the best. It was a simple game that took some aspects of all games out at the time and made a dumb down version for the masses. Stop comparing everything to it as if it set the standard. The only thing it set was subscription records and you don't do that with a real-gamers game.

I'll agree with that about WoW...I it was my least favorite MMO, however it was the one that had content added to it that allowed you to continue playing it. I think thats probably what Blizzard did best...add relative content in a pretty good amount of time.

 

In all honesty UO, CoH, and SWG were all better overall play experience for me than WoW...they just lacked the ability to progress.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Kahzard

WoW was the first mmo to do mass advertising. They were on TV/Magazines/mainstream

 

They gained a bazillion subscribers, whereas before having a player base of 250k-300k was awesome (ie UO/DAOC/EQ etc).

 

WoW brought in the average joe into gaming, whereas before it was a more serious place for serious players.

Like a previous poster said, people changed and that changed the MMO landscape. This is my first MMO that I've reached max level, and I guess you could count me inbetween the old and new generation of gaming. I'm currently 24.

 

I joined WoW to play with my friends, who have all max leveled their WoW toons and alts. They eventually got bored (with the grinding, I think) and switched to WCIII games and Vindictus. I joined them and had a lot of fun - starting fresh is great, and I love reading about the strengths and weaknesses of classes and planning them out. I mostly had fun because I played with my friends.

 

Then SWTOR came out. I had great fun leveling with friends and leveling solo, and even convinced my g/f to play with us (who swore she would never play an MMO) and she was hooked, but for different reasons. She, and other new gen gamers, care about graphics, story, and ease of use above all else. I think old gen gamers care about challenging gameplay and time:rewards above all else. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me (general observation).

 

Since there are more and more new gen gamers coming onto the scene, their priorities will overshadow old gen gamers' priorities. Cutting down on challenging gameplay allows everyone to enjoy content, and cutting down on time lets you get more bang for your buck, in addition to having more of a life outside of the MMO.

 

I agree that the general move towards easier gaming without as much emphasis on player skill has downsides, but it's not all bad. The more people that play with you, the more fun you'll have.

 

Of course once your group gets good enough, you'll want more challenge. I believe this is where Bioware needs to keep up with generating more and more difficult content, extending the challenge ladder (like they did for EC being harder than KP & EV).

 

 

But anyways, old gen gamers might not be dying out - it's just that new gen gamers are entering the field at an increasing rate. But that might not be such a bad thing. Their money will pay for more content, which should satisfy old gen gamers (especially since they're making the new content more challenging).

New generation of gamers...the consoled ones.

New generation of gamers...the consoled ones.

 

And what do consoles have that MMOs don't? That's right - cheat codes. There's your entitlement source.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Flaminica

(This thread doesn't belong in the Sniper channel)

 

 

 

Idk man, this is pretty much exactly what I went through as a sniper too.

 

get murdered alot, get mad, get good, murder alot

Thank *insert deity of choice* they (MMO's) aren't like they used to be.

 

Fortunately - people woke up and realized grinding for a new carrot was not fun. You can blame SWG and a dozen other MMO's who made the process feel like work, when people play games to have fun.

 

Also - gear based pvp, regardless of genre (mmo, fps..etc..etc) is STUPID. Only the most tirelessly stubborn with tolerate a week (or more) of constant 'defeat', and NOT absolutely lose any interest in the game.

 

To you it's 'work', to the majority, it's nothing short of abuse when people PAY/PLAY to have fun.

Face it... losing constantly to better geared players, going into a match KNOWING you are going to lose, over and over again.... is NOT fun (for the majority).

 

You think it is fun. Kuddo's to you, but for every 1 of you, there are 10 who disagree.

(guesstimate, not based on scientific fact)

 

You are certainly entitled to have fun the way you choose, doing what brings you enjoyment, but at the end of the day I think the majority like having fun differently than you do, hence the changes you see, and... (this is a fact) the number of people who play MMO's has grown substantially over the years, since UO's release...

 

I view your post akin to an old football player calling the 'new gen' sissies because they wear helmets.

 

To each their own.

The real "real" gamers whined pretty much the same way about WoW and its players when it was new...You're late to the party buddy. Edited April 14, 2012 by Blurps

You are certainly entitled to have fun the way you choose, doing what brings you enjoyment, but at the end of the day I think the majority like having fun differently than you do, hence the changes you see, and... (this is a fact) the number of people who play MMO's has grown substantially over the years, since UO's release...

 

No one disputes this. It is a well-known fact that devs aim at appealing to the maximum amount of numbers.

 

The problem I have with your post though, is that you automatically assume he, and me, says it is about work. While it seem to be a foreign concept these days, work does not mean grind. Infact, that is the opposite of effort and hard work. That is what we have today. Braindead dailies and warzone grind is worse than ever.

 

The point is, and was with the older generation of MMOs, is that what you did now mattered. It wasn't just a forgetable stepping stone to reach the end game. You remembered these players because you spent time there.

 

A different mindset, I suppose, today it's about reaching the end and then complain about there not being an endgame when you reach it. That is the problem, right there, on the journey between A to B, today's games focus entirely on the B. Indeed, with the instant gratification demand I'm suprised they even bother with low/mid tier content at all.

 

As for today's PVP, I just direct you all to my sig. It's all about the ezmode.

Its not just in games, society as a whole is changing drastically. As technology is becoming more readily availble to everyone, people have gotten used to the "I want it, and i want it now mentality". Speed and getting what you want has become the norm. Retail outlets like walmart who bend over backwards for the customers who ***** and scream the loudest. Facebook and myspace have developed almost an entire society of textbook narcissist. Everything now has created a "Im the center of the universe effect" There is really no sense of community, people dont help each other anymore and the only thing that matters is what I want, and unless I get it exactly how i want it, when i want it, ive been taught just to kick and scream the loudest.

 

Society has driven us back to the toddler stage, back when we all honestly believed that we are the center of the world and we are never wrong, the traditional game and group development stages are skipped over and no longer abundant. Kids dont go outside as much and therefore dont learn how to be apart of a group. Its not just gaming. Its the entire American society and its pushing over into others as well.

Edited April 14, 2012 by Pwnyride

Your first mistake was to put WoW and "real gamers" together in the same sentence. Seriously WoW was what kicked off the carebear generation of MMO gamers that feel like they should be able to go through the entire game without having to group up and work as a team in anything.

 

All MMO games prior to WoW almost required you to group up, be social and learn teamwork to tackle anything past lvl 10 worth doing. Then along came WoW and the carebear kiddies that were bad at teamwork cried, and WoW listened and made it so you could solo to max level if you sucked too bad to get a group. Problem was, these perpetual petulent kids outnumbered those gamers that actually tried to be better, so WoW became popular and became the business model for all future MMO's.

If you run into a skilled player that has taken the time to get geared now you have a nightmare on your hands

 

This is where you lost your argument. Time dont have anything to do with skill. You use WOW as a reference to your post..... Well, wow was about time, not skill. That is a huge difference. Games that have tried to copy wow failed. Why? There were never any more need for time games.

 

Gaming should be about fun, not time spent. Wow filled a hole in the mmo genre there. It isnt a demand for a second one.

Your first mistake was to put WoW and "real gamers" together in the same sentence. Seriously WoW was what kicked off the carebear generation of MMO gamers that feel like they should be able to go through the entire game without having to group up and work as a team in anything.

 

This was my thinking also. Wow was never about skill, but about time spent.

This was my thinking also. Wow was never about skill, but about time spent.

 

I'm almost 100% certain just about every MMORPG is based on this.

 

Even some of the pvp laden MMOs are based heavily on time spent in the game for success.

I'm almost 100% certain just about every MMORPG is based on this.

 

Even some of the pvp laden MMOs are based heavily on time spent in the game for success.

 

You mean based on "time spent since we released new content." -- not time spent loyally for 5+ years since the beginning of the game before you went on a 5 month military deployment, come back and find out every single newbie playing your counter-class in the game can now stomp the snot out of last-season's gladiator gear by sneezing twice and accidently smashing their face on the 'kill you' button(s) both times.

 

Go-go gadget expansion-pack.

 

*Smirks.*

Edited April 15, 2012 by TheHiddenFear

I wonder if any group around here could survive a runner in Sebilis crypt or the Hole, or a "Where's my pet?" in the King Room in Guk.

I wonder if any group around here could survive a runner in Sebilis crypt or the Hole, or a "Where's my pet?" in the King Room in Guk.

Where's my pet,?

"oh crap, Healer, log off fast so we can get rezzed" the good old days before WoW

The "real' gamers played DAoC, UO, and Everquest. We would play 19 hours just for half a bubble of experience at FINS. And if someone messed up and we died, we lost 4 entire bubbles. Death was hard, dying meant possibly losing all your gear. Actions had real consequences, rewards cost real effort, skill was based on how you played, not what gear you had. I stayed up 19 hours, skipping work the next morning/day just to hold a relic keep the mid's accidently stopped guarding just for 110 precious skill points that were used to buy 3 abilities... THREE... and I was tickled pink that we were able to hold them off. Thats right, you used to manually have to hold pvp gaines, all day and all night, in shifts, for realm bonus', otherwise it could be a one month long campaign to recapture realm gaines. This was the era of gaming, and we were gamers.

 

And then WoW came along and turned a whole bunch of whiney *****es into "gamers" who whined and *****ed a lot. QQ'ing over dying penalties, QQ'ing over how long it takes to reach max level, QQing cause they wanted everything playing an hour a day 2 or 3 days a week. Gaming went from being "the journey to the top" to "lyke, omg, ur armor is teh suckz" at max level. It became about calculus, spreadsheets, 1 extra percent of damage, and endlessly, mindlessly, doing the same repetitive thing over and over for nothing at "end game".

 

So, to answer your question, what happened to real gamers? If WoW was your first experience into gaming, you will never, ever know, haha

 

Disclaimer: No whiney brats were actually harmed in the typing of this post. This post is intended 60% for good natured humor, 30% nostalgia, and 10% ribbing. People offended should put their big boy panties on and get over it

all this talk of old games and no one mentions Asheron's Call? there were no quest starters... you looked for what was new and killed things to see what happens. hey this one opened a portal... lemme check that out... BAM!! dead. hmmm im gonna need more people.... and some new armor since i dropped mine on that death.....

 

 

and i remember my guild holding server wide runs so trade mules could get their focus stone... just a guild holding a dungeon open for all levels (there was no instancing, you could have a couple hundred people camping 1 spawn) to run in and loot the item, having to set up waiting lists for whos turn it was to loot it next, being a mob monkey and killing everything that spawns in your area ASAP!!!!

 

no skill tree, no stats increase with level.... you choose your skills, and you lived with it. you want higher health? spend your xp either right into health or into stam. want your sword skill higher? keep using and also throw in your spendable xp in it... hell we made mules that would never kill a thing ever... just take all the trade skills, have your friends make alts, swear to the mule and then go level like crazy so the mule levels too. oh yeah mules... characters you made for the sole purpose of holding your items, since there were no banks....

 

 

dammit i miss AC.....

dammit i miss AC.....

 

The game is still running, and by the sounds of it - Turbine is doing a pretty good job content wise... And a slow graphical overhaul.

The "real gamers" do exsist.. They are playing EvE-Online.