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Dread Guard nerf - Catering to the Casual


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'The enrage timer for The Dread Guard has been increased by 30 seconds in Hard and Nightmare Modes.'

 

snip

 

This speaks poorly to Bioware's intent to provide challenging content, in my opinion.

Will future content be continually nerfed to the point of Nightmare mode being 'everyone and their mother can clear it in a day-mode'?

 

Where are these notes you're quoting here? I am unable to find any patch notes saying this is happening?

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And at the risk of being trolled, EAware is running a business. the 60 people that currently have the elite ability to beat it as it stands now are not going to be the ones that give them the most money. If 5% of people that are elite enough have the ability to beat it and 95% don't EAware is gonna make it so that more people beat it and continue playing and thusly giving them more money.
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Stick a lever near the Dread Guard encounter. Pull the lever, enrage timer drops by 30 seconds. You get a title just for beating them. Remove lever if/when level cap increases.

 

;)

 

On top of that idea, what if they did that, but for every boss. And it stacked, so if you pulled it twice, it would double the amount being lowered. With a reset button next to it if it proved too difficult (ex. Pulling it 5 times on NiM DG). That way, a guild can make everything "nightmare worthy"

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Something wrong with wanting hard content, but not insane enrage?

 

Enrage is a BS mechanic to start with.

 

Any fight where the enrage timer is the deciding factor isn't really worthy of the title "Nightmare".

 

If they want to keep time a component, add more complex mechanics based on the fight timer so that a sufficiently insane guild can still win, but make them so unforgiving that 99.9% of attempts fail if you're too slow.

 

Not that it matters, since BioWare is committed to lazy game design, but there's so much they could be doing besides just adding the "you lose" button.

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It's not really a ******** mechanic, i mean it's there fro dps accountability. I mean as important as it is to move, interrupt, change targets, kite, and whatever else that needs to get done during a fight an enrage timer prevents teams from just taking their time through the whole place. You should need to do all that while peaking your dps, which is really what this encounter does, not as much as it did, but they are needed to a point. And serious what mmo now a days really puts out a compelling fight? Not to mention all they want to do is make money. Please let's not pretend the devs really care about competition I mean you can tell by the lack of tracking the do
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The enrage timer change simply gives you 30 more seconds to kill Kel'sara, since 3 lightning phases on heirad is a wipe anyway, so that DPS check is unchanged. You still need DPS pulling 2800+ (8 man) to down Heirad before he wipes the raid. Taking any longer on Ciphas than before means more puddles to deal with, which is a soft enrage mechanic in itself. Kel'sara was enraging before most guilds could even work her mechanics. It was 100% possible to do before the nerf (as shown), but the enrage change is not going to let many more guilds clear it than would've before the change anyway, you still need 2800+ DPS, you just don't need 3000. It's a minor tweak, and though I think it should've been left as is, it's honestly not making any casuals able to clear it.
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Cheese, I think the argument in general is that this is just further proof that they cater to the minority who complain. So if content is difficult in the future, we can expect Bioware to nerf it after 1 or 2 guilds complain about it? I don't like the idea of that. It shows Bioware has no resolve in standing firm and telling the guilds to deal with it or get better.
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The enrage timer change simply gives you 30 more seconds to kill Kel'sara, since 3 lightning phases on heirad is a wipe anyway, so that DPS check is unchanged. You still need DPS pulling 2800+ (8 man) to down Heirad before he wipes the raid. Taking any longer on Ciphas than before means more puddles to deal with, which is a soft enrage mechanic in itself. Kel'sara was enraging before most guilds could even work her mechanics. It was 100% possible to do before the nerf (as shown), but the enrage change is not going to let many more guilds clear it than would've before the change anyway, you still need 2800+ DPS, you just don't need 3000. It's a minor tweak, and though I think it should've been left as is, it's honestly not making any casuals able to clear it.

 

Not entirely true, before the nerf you had to beat the 3rd surging chain, now you only have to beat the 3rd lightning storm, so the 1st phase is more lenient opening the door to many more guilds, however the 'casual' raiding guilds will probably not be able to clear it still which is the way it should be....I think it's now perfectly tuned for a 2nd boss but the last couple bosses should be harder IMO.

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I think the nerf was a good decision by bioware.

 

Impossible? No. But the fight was overtuned compared to the rest of the instance. As far as I know, nobody beat the enrage timer pre-nerf.

 

The fight is still very hard. The hardest in TFB NM. Just that it's not the crazy enrage timer that's the hard part anymore. It's not like casual guilds suddenly will clear this now.

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I havent noticed many guilds posting progression in the progression thread on it either. I know some just dont care at this point but it still seems like the fight is challenging enough for many guilds out there.

The enrage timer was a good fix by bioware. Guilds still have to overcome the mechanics while keeping high dps to clear this. Now if only they would buff operator phase 2 and kephess.

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http://i41.tinypic.com/dpdegl.jpg ? :p

 

one tank... crafted stuff http://i40.tinypic.com/ekq4hi.png

 

my tank lol http://i39.tinypic.com/331gd41.jpg ... judge the WP / aim difference to see my 150 / 156 gear and crafted lol.

 

healer missing 5 kits, some legacied gear using crafts on dps,.. so yeah was a LOT harder than it should lol.

 

in skills.. this group is a 10/10... in gear its a 7/10... 2 dps BiS... rest combination of 168 with bad stuffs (legacy over from alts or faction).... i mean i dont even gear that tank, he has 2 168 armorings, one 162... rest 150 (MH/OH 156)... partisan /war hero... 69 mods... crafted implant.. 4 / 7 enhancements 72s... dulfy's alt has most verpine, missing half augmented gear lol, not counting that almost all Augs. are blue not purple in 4 of us lol.... so yeah it doesnt even require any kind of Min / Max.

 

then again, if everyone would have done attempts before nerf, and wipes like they should, instead of skipping or waiting, they would understand how the 30 sec extra enrage makes it a super easy fight "COMPARED" to pre nerf... still a really hard fight.... before it wasnt impossible... now its not even Min Max required, or close to it :).

 

PD: thats our alt run // second group btw.... we did skip last week and didnt have time to kill TFB, just op / kephess, but all gear won by "not mains" are being legacied over to mains, so yeah, there is not a "gear improvement" lol.

Edited by Carlenux
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People say it's good change because that fight was harder compared to other fights in that instance. I'd like to ask, what's the matter? I don't see a problem if the second boss is the strongest boss. Sure it would make more sense to be the final boss, but if it's the second, I still don't see it as big deal. And since that fight was killed multiple times before the nerf, I think this change was unnecessary. Edited by zzoorrzz
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I like nerf on the enrage timer... maybe not 30 seconds... but now at least 3 Ciphas bubbles don't automatically mean a wipe. I think now it opens the fight more for less bursty specs that can't put out X amount of damage as fast. E.g. MM Sniper versus DoT Sniper. When Ciphas jumps you want to absolutely burst that bubble as fast as you can. Not very easy to do as DoT spec. See this scenario: dot 1, dot 2, dot 3 on Heirad, then boom. Ciphas jumps and puts up his bubble. What do you do...? Put dot 1 again, put dot 2 again (on Ciphas) then you channel Cull. That's 5 GCDs spent putting DoTs up before you can do any sort of DPS. 3 of those dots (on Heirad) are doing nothing and the damage is even getting reflected back to you (iirc). Compare that to a MM Sniper who in the same amount of time (5 GCDs = 7.5 seconds) has already done, Ambush FT, SoS FT ~20-25K damage.

 

But that can be alleviated when you get used to your raid's DPS and can anticipate the jump. Its just.. well as with all nerfs, makes the fight a little bit easier and gives you a larger room for error.

Edited by paowee
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http://i41.tinypic.com/dpdegl.jpg ? :p

 

one tank... crafted stuff http://i40.tinypic.com/ekq4hi.png

 

my tank lol http://i39.tinypic.com/331gd41.jpg ... judge the WP / aim difference to see my 150 / 156 gear and crafted lol.

 

healer missing 5 kits, some legacied gear using crafts on dps,.. so yeah was a LOT harder than it should lol.

 

in skills.. this group is a 10/10... in gear its a 7/10... 2 dps BiS... rest combination of 168 with bad stuffs (legacy over from alts or faction).... i mean i dont even gear that tank, he has 2 168 armorings, one 162... rest 150 (MH/OH 156)... partisan /war hero... 69 mods... crafted implant.. 4 / 7 enhancements 72s... dulfy's alt has most verpine, missing half augmented gear lol, not counting that almost all Augs. are blue not purple in 4 of us lol.... so yeah it doesnt even require any kind of Min / Max.

 

then again, if everyone would have done attempts before nerf, and wipes like they should, instead of skipping or waiting, they would understand how the 30 sec extra enrage makes it a super easy fight "COMPARED" to pre nerf... still a really hard fight.... before it wasnt impossible... now its not even Min Max required, or close to it :).

 

PD: thats our alt run // second group btw.... we did skip last week and didnt have time to kill TFB, just op / kephess, but all gear won by "not mains" are being legacied over to mains, so yeah, there is not a "gear improvement" lol.

 

To add more to this I was the top DPS the DG fight and was only at 2525.02 which pre nerf is close to not being able to kill said fight.

 

http://www.torparse.com/g/5984/22

 

2790.87

2769.38

2763.75

2418.92

 

Was a pre-nerf kill and the dps requirement. We killed heriad before the third shield phase and it was still extremely close. I do believe pre nerf any dps class had the potential to kill the encounter if they played the class/fight close to perfection.

 

On that same note I do not believe bioware intended the fight to have to be executed to near perfection and alienate some classes that aren't from a metric standpoint performing well compared to others.

 

Semi on the same wave length I got to run the content with two raid groups (MoX, Hatred) and I believe accountability and responsibility for this fight are most important knowing the numbers and weakness/strength of the two groups

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I like nerf on the enrage timer... maybe not 30 seconds... but now at least 3 Ciphas bubbles don't automatically mean a wipe. I think now it opens the fight more for less bursty specs that can't put out X amount of damage as fast. E.g. MM Sniper versus DoT Sniper. When Ciphas jumps you want to absolutely burst that bubble as fast as you can. Not very easy to do as DoT spec. See this scenario: dot 1, dot 2, dot 3 on Heirad, then boom. Ciphas jumps and puts up his bubble. What do you do...? Put dot 1 again, put dot 2 again (on Ciphas) then you channel Cull. That's 5 GCDs spent putting DoTs up before you can do any sort of DPS. 3 of those dots (on Heirad) are doing nothing and the damage is even getting reflected back to you (iirc). Compare that to a MM Sniper who in the same amount of time (5 GCDs = 7.5 seconds) has already done, Ambush FT, SoS FT ~20-25K damage.

 

But that can be alleviated when you get used to your raid's DPS and can anticipate the jump. Its just.. well as with all nerfs, makes the fight a little bit easier and gives you a larger room for error.

 

Don't get me started I've still yet to perfect the fight and know I can squeeze out more. Most annoying thing is most phases in P1 occur for 9-12 seconds and its useless applying dots its a dps loss and results in reflect dmg if you do it wrong.

 

Its to the point where unless I have a wrath proc and CD off CD I'll just spam FL and pre apply dots to heriad as the shield expires to get maximum dps time and a smoother transition into lighting field.

 

I don't have gripes with P2/P3 maybe in future encounters bioware designs it with dot classes in mind or allow the damage to stick the entire encounter (multi-dot) and add in something to punish a group from just clumping the bosses.

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BW did a great job on the DG fight ,and i sure BW test it

The problem is, it looks good on paper and on internal testing, the other thing is on live server.

All know that some specs are not in par with others

Just look the shadow tank

 

Austin Peckenpaugh on Tank assassin discussion

http://dulfy.net/2013/02/25/swtor-patch-2-0-developer-responses/

 

 

Internal testing show they are at the same level than other tanks but in reality, they are not, the same happen to dps and healers.

If they have a hard time to balance the classes, the only option is to "balance" the Ops

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having attempted DG pre enrage timer fix I can assure you its the same fight. Sure the extra time is nice but you still have to do the mechanics. My guild only got about 70 attempts in before the fix but had some very close attempts. Before the change it was necessary to aggro bounce n burn kelsara through enrage now you don't have to do that thats about the only change. The fight is well balanced now I wish BW would buff the remaining fights to make them tougher and fix some of the bugs that still exist on the terror fight.
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http://i41.tinypic.com/dpdegl.jpg ? :p

 

one tank... crafted stuff http://i40.tinypic.com/ekq4hi.png

 

my tank lol http://i39.tinypic.com/331gd41.jpg ... judge the WP / aim difference to see my 150 / 156 gear and crafted lol.

 

healer missing 5 kits, some legacied gear using crafts on dps,.. so yeah was a LOT harder than it should lol.

 

in skills.. this group is a 10/10... in gear its a 7/10... 2 dps BiS... rest combination of 168 with bad stuffs (legacy over from alts or faction).... i mean i dont even gear that tank, he has 2 168 armorings, one 162... rest 150 (MH/OH 156)... partisan /war hero... 69 mods... crafted implant.. 4 / 7 enhancements 72s... dulfy's alt has most verpine, missing half augmented gear lol, not counting that almost all Augs. are blue not purple in 4 of us lol.... so yeah it doesnt even require any kind of Min / Max.

 

then again, if everyone would have done attempts before nerf, and wipes like they should, instead of skipping or waiting, they would understand how the 30 sec extra enrage makes it a super easy fight "COMPARED" to pre nerf... still a really hard fight.... before it wasnt impossible... now its not even Min Max required, or close to it :).

 

PD: thats our alt run // second group btw.... we did skip last week and didnt have time to kill TFB, just op / kephess, but all gear won by "not mains" are being legacied over to mains, so yeah, there is not a "gear improvement" lol.

 

I don't get it you literally call it a super easy fight compared to pre nerf but then say you skip it to save time? If its super easy why are you skipping it even in an alt group? I mean I get the whole time restraint thing but if you are already downing it it means you have the mechanics down and should be able to kill it in a decent amount of attempts.

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snip

With

 

NiM DG Council

2m 41s 2856 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/22/0/Overview

3m 49 3060 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/27/0/Overview

5m 1 2859 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/28/0/Overview

5m 58s 2935 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/21/0/Overview

6m 43s 2816 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/30/0/Overview

7m 8s 2891 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/29/0/Overview

7m 30s 2812 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/320387/34/0/Overview <-- downed

 

We were still hitting 3 Ciphas bubbles. I think all those attempts we had 3 Ciphas bubbles. Without the nerf to enrage idk, we would've just wiped it the moment Ciphas jumps a third time. It was the same group who did the 2-hr timed run, save for me, a new jugg tank and a new merc healer.

 

Oh and Happy 4th!

 

P.S. You want to look at Heirad P1 Total Damage done. Guildie gueestimated that if you do close to 300,000 or even more than 300,000 total damage done, then you're good. If all 4 DPS are doing above 300,000 that's going to ~help, if not push altogether, the phase to Ciphas in only 2 jumps. If you are still not getting past 2 Ciphas bubbles then its up to the tanks and healers to add more DPS.

 

imo.

Edited by paowee
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yeah that phase 1 burn is pretty intense. I switched out a relic just so I could get a lil more umph. Went from the proc dmg to the BA/SA combo helped a ton. Usually at 3k dps in phase 1 but I drop a ton in p2/p3 because BW hates me and targets me with all the Dooms and leashes always.
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yeah that phase 1 burn is pretty intense. I switched out a relic just so I could get a lil more umph. Went from the proc dmg to the BA/SA combo helped a ton. Usually at 3k dps in phase 1 but I drop a ton in p2/p3 because BW hates me and targets me with all the Dooms and leashes always.
Hmm torparse is weird. I think you should look at total damage done for heirad and not DPS. Look at this...

 

Damage on Heirad Phase 1

Their first kill attempt:

SteadTotal dmg done - DPS

Stead - 232812 - 2231.33 <<<

Gorb - 310457 - 715.76

Merc (Ars) - 260535 - 600.67 (not his best day lol)

Sniper (MM) - 309424 - 713.32

 

 

Mix Hybrid and 36/3/7 MM Damage on Heirad Phase 1 [link]

2m 41s - 274122 - 1693.74 <<<

5m 1 - 275691 - 913.17 ???

7m 30s - 277329 - 615.94

6m 43s - 293223 - 726.21

3m 49 - 298837 - 1303.02 ???

7m 8s - 302236 706.19

5m 58s - 320309 - 894.04.

 

2 out of 3 of the 270K logs were from Hybrid Lethality. Then again, the 320K total damage done was also from Hybrid Lethality. Definitely the DoT spec needs more fine-tuning compared to burst DPS specs in order to pull off that 300K on Heirad. But getting past P1, the Lethality sniper should be a very good asset thoughout p2 and p3 **especially** when you are the one getting Doom. I think I would prefer to get Doom as Hybrid so that melee classes and ranged classes running turret specs can do most of their DPS. In the meantime I just run around with DoTs ticking and the ocassional 2 second Cull (quite easy to pull off; more than enough time to clear doom stacks).

 

In light of the recent enrage nerf and "what's the best DPS composition for DG Council" topic, i think it's a good idea to have 1 ranged DoT class for P2 and P3. Or you could always just plow through the fight with crazy burst DPS >_>

 

EDIT: Nvm, found out why the DPS numbers are skewed.

22:45:03.273 Heirad kills Steadfast. <<<

20:36:22.614 Ciphas kills B'oarder. <<<

Still dont know what to make of ??? though.

Edited by paowee
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To add more to this I was the top DPS the DG fight and was only at 2525.02 which pre nerf is close to not being able to kill said fight.

 

http://www.torparse.com/g/5984/22

 

2790.87

2769.38

2763.75

2418.92

 

Was a pre-nerf kill and the dps requirement. We killed heriad before the third shield phase and it was still extremely close. I do believe pre nerf any dps class had the potential to kill the encounter if they played the class/fight close to perfection.

 

On that same note I do not believe bioware intended the fight to have to be executed to near perfection and alienate some classes that aren't from a metric standpoint performing well compared to others.

 

Semi on the same wave length I got to run the content with two raid groups (MoX, Hatred) and I believe accountability and responsibility for this fight are most important knowing the numbers and weakness/strength of the two groups

 

yup basically milas / parklas / botharia / sorvali carried our other alts :p but still lol... the alts were severely undergeared for what people think is requirement for this fight.... ask him about mi ssin tank getting 2 shoted to 5% on kephess fight... 17.5/17.5k two straight hits lol

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I don't get it you literally call it a super easy fight compared to pre nerf but then say you skip it to save time? If its super easy why are you skipping it even in an alt group? I mean I get the whole time restraint thing but if you are already downing it it means you have the mechanics down and should be able to kill it in a decent amount of attempts.

 

we skipped the first week because it was our first week we had to finish progression for last 2 bosses, so it took us 1 day to finish TFB with 1 group, then we had 1 day to attempt DG with second group (which included, 2 tanks that never did the fights as tanks, recently recruited milas had to get used to our strat... parklas first time doing fight as well... and we didnt have dulfyx as second healer... so after like 10-12 wipes on it, some of them were 80k - 40k maybe even less wipes, decided we had to skip to clear the rest before tuesday... we killed 3/4th and didnt have time for TFB... because my guild runs 3 groups, and sun/mon had a different group running as well, and everyone deserve their play time (they require alts, so couldnt have 2 runs at the same time).

 

Once the mechanics are figured out, specially for the new people doing different roles, took us like 10 wipes maybe 15 to kill yesterday... like i said, my Ssin tank sometimes gets "rejected" from hm SaV pug runs or other guild runs because hes undergeared, and there he is... so yeah its way too easy compared to pre nerf... watch our title stream, notice how my operative waste at least 10GCd or more in heals, just because enrage timer is so easy i decided to play it safety first, not counting it was an awful attempt with 3 Rez lol.... even with that it was a 2600 dps, but before nerf, wasting 1 dps GCD healing was basically a wipe.

 

just because i did the fight with my main, doesnt mean i know what to do, how to maximize, and play perfect an alt... thiol (tank main) -- glycol sniper.... invinc (dps main) --- hmaull tank.... dulfy (sorc heal) --- dulfyx op heal..... noodles mara dps --- noodle PT tank.... besides dulfy, 3 alts are different roles, tanking the fight, is way different than dpsing the fight :).... that plus 3/4 mains being "new, first time to the fight".. in fact even bothari can be new to the fight, he was in our pre nerf kill, but only did like 20 wipes, not the 100+ the rest did, since he joined us later that week :)... so it was not a super experienced group (in fights mechanics), neither it was the classic "i play with my alt, but i have two operatives, or two Tanks i legacy gear and play the same thing"

 

TL : DR before nerf it was "impossible" almost everyone killed with enrage, its true, but now it doesnt even require BiS gear to kill it, or purple augments, or full augmented chars, facts are up there ^^... then i agree is more casual than NiM... instead of 30 sec enrage, could have increased 5 secs + before ciphas 3rd shield, and reduce Adds hp by 5-10k Each, keep same enrage timer... way easier fight, still NiM mode worthy.

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'The enrage timer for The Dread Guard has been increased by 30 seconds in Hard and Nightmare Modes.'

 

Nice to see Bioware caving to the casuals (Attn, this pro-nerf thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=6425376#post6425376 - started by Death and Taxes).

 

Not really.

 

This is Nightmare mode. This fight has been cleared by multiple guilds now - why nerf it? This decision simply robs the ability to compete for other guilds who still want challenge.

 

This speaks poorly to Bioware's intent to provide challenging content, in my opinion.

Will future content be continually nerfed to the point of Nightmare mode being 'everyone and their mother can clear it in a day-mode'?

 

please stop misusing the word casual. the amount of time one plays has no correlation to how skilled one is. the more proper word would be unskilled. besides all content that the average ex wow player can't complete in a few tries gets nerfed now.

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Carl I would like to point out that the first couple of guilds that did kill nightmare DG were not optimized. They had chars that were not BiS either. Its the same fight. You stick to the mechanics and you win. That's why you havent been seeing a ton of guilds posting progression on the fight. I know on my server there are still only a handful of guilds that have cleared it and most of those are in 16m since we have both Severity Gaming and Chosen on our server.

I would never presume to call this fight super easy even in its current form compared to the original. I would call the current form balanced and the original state of the fight overtuned. It is definitely a nightmare worthy encounter.

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