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Sorcerer/Sage Topic


YodaUnrea

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Dear Bioware i would like to ask some questions and also demand some tweaks for this twoo classes.

 

First of who had that idea in the office to complitly make sorcerers and sages telekinetics, balance, sorcerers lightning, and madness, so damn weak?

 

I have seen a very well put together sheet how this 2 classes are performing in high end gear with high end augments, and enchantments variations, so i can say basicly it is the end content meta build, and they only do 10k dps? even with strugle? What the actual F? While clearly other specs like mele can over perform way beter then sorc/sages. im not saying to make them gods, but when it comes to high end meta, 10k is basicly nothing compared to the other specs.

 

Another issue that basicly the ingame community only invites the sorc/sage classes just because of their buffs. while it is under performing. And this is true. on every sheet and list sorcerers and sages are the last one as DPS.

 

This is cannot stands anymore. The sorcerers and sages are basicly no longer welcomed in any case of cenarios wwhen it comes to be a DPS. Healers are working nicely, but the damage dealing is disgustingly low. Reguardless of the high end meta gears and augments, enchantments and so on while otehr specs are way more powerful as they shouldnt be.

 

Sure have fun with that i am okay with the fact that other classes are performing nicely, but i cannot stand this discrimination against the sorcerers/sages. So my demand (yes i demand it becasue i am a consumer, and a coustumer too who put money on to your tabel dear EAware) to boost the sorcerers and sages damages up to the line where they can be at least on the third on the DPS list. Not the last. without struggle.

 

Thats all.

 

No is not an option. Make it happen! Or simply give up your job already. Beccause the current state of the game including their weekly crystal issues with the starfighter sheet fest, if i were your boss i would already fired you all.

this is 2019 now so wake up. Because in other mmorpgs this kind of quality and gaming experiance issues will be not tolerated in any game development office. So here is your wake up call.

 

To my fellow community mates: I love you all :) And please dont troll here or offend eachothers. :)

To the fanboys and defenders: you should all open your eyes. you are all old enough to walk on the earth with open eyes, you are no longer a new born puppy or a kitty.

Edited by YodaUnrea
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Been saying this for over two years. They even nerfed dps Sorcs survivability last year and only slightly buffed madness at the same time.

Poor lightning Sorcs have been nerfed and left in the dust the whole time.

When is it our time to shine again or atleast be in the middle of the pack.

2+ years of being at the bottom is getting old and I know of many people who have left the game because they only main this class.

But I also don’t want the class to be OP. It’s got strong DCDs and survivability (but so do many other OP classes). I would be willing to sacrifice some of those for an increase in dps burst output. (Just don’t over-nerf those DCDs unless you plan on doing it for all the OP DCD classes too)

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This is odd.

 

I was in a TOS HM just last week with a Sorc DPS. He was in 248/252 gear and auged 240, who was doing 10k to 12k dps on bosses.

 

Not 10k-12k on the test dummy - 10k-12k on BOSSES. Malaphar, Underlurker, Revanite Commanders.

 

And of course, I congratulated him as being at the top of what is a difficult class to play.

 

Keep in mind, Sorcs are a ranged class, and as Bioware made clear a year ago, as a base, they want ranged classes to not perform as high as melee classes.

 

So perhaps you need to verify your GCD against a test dummy, review your rotation...and take a hint from this particular Sorc DPS:

 

"Please do not bubble me!"

 

=8-)

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Wow demand huh. Im sure they'll get right on it.

 

Sorry not to sound like a "fanboy" as you put it and I probably will because I disagree or have a difference of opinion which apparently makes you a "fanboy" but you can "demand" all you want but doesn't mean anything will change.

 

In all seriousness of your post I play and main a sorcerer both Madness and Lightning. I don't play heal spec and in the years I've played not once I have ever been denied or told I can't do an OPS or any sort of pre-mades just because I play a sorcerer.

 

I've done plenty of both and have never been denied a spot. Also training dummy beyond getting a general idea of your do means squat. When in a live scenario of a battle anything can change in an instant since boss battles for example or even PvP may be random.

 

While they may be on the lower end of the spectrum of DPS compared to other classes doesn't mean they need to be 3rd or 2nd or whatever. Even if they were it still depends on the skill of the player, the situation at the time and what your doing. You can have a top DPS class but if you don't know what your doing, are in an unusual situation, or simply make a fat finger mistake on your rotation your DPS can fall quickly.

 

Can improvements be made, yeah probably but I've never been nor seen anyone who plays a sorcerer get denied an OPS or PvP spot for DPS. If they are, sounds more of a problem with the ones that denied them and not necessarily the person playing the sorcerer or sage.

Edited by Nightblazer
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Wow demand huh. Im sure they'll get right on it.

 

Sorry not to sound like a "fanboy" as you put it and I probably will because I disagree or have a difference of opinion which apparently makes you a "fanboy" but you can "demand" all you want but doesn't mean anything will change.

 

In all seriousness of your post I play and main a sorcerer both Madness and Lightning. I don't play heal spec and in the years I've played not once I have ever been denied or told I can't do an OPS or any sort of pre-mades just because I play a sorcerer.

 

I've done plenty of both and have never been denied a spot. Also training dummy beyond getting a general idea of your do means squat. When in a live scenario of a battle anything can change in an instant since boss battles for example or even PvP may be random.

 

While they may be on the lower end of the spectrum of DPS compared to other classes doesn't mean they need to be 3rd or 2nd or whatever. Even if they were it still depends on the skill of the player, the situation at the time and what your doing. You can have a top DPS class but if you don't know what your doing, are in an unusual situation, or simply make a fat finger mistake on your rotation your DPS can fall quickly.

 

Can improvements be made, yeah probably but I've never been nor seen anyone who plays a sorcerer get denied an OPS or PvP spot for DPS. If they are, sounds more of a problem with the ones that denied them and not necessarily the person playing the sorcerer or sage.

 

Agreed. I main sorcs/sages, having alts for both Madness and Lightning, and they perform perfectly well in both pvp and ops.

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Fine, how about compared to all the other classes and specs? Lighting is at the bottom with PTs.

 

In every meta some specs will be at the bottom...

and since your are quoting a statement concerning pve too, pt is top notch for that and in a premade it is good too.

lightning is dealing internal dmg. that needs to be considered but i think those players struggling with lightning doesnt know that and instead demanding changes...because some fool tells them the class is bad for doing something.

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Reguardless of the disagrements the Sorcerers and sages as DPS in each DPS spec they are underperforming cosuing the class to get outshined so badly by other classes and specs that basicly sorcerers and sages became utterly unplayable classes and specs as damage dealers. And thats why i demanded, to buff them. And i am quiet sure i am not alone with this facts and demands. Edited by YodaUnrea
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Reguardless of the disagrements the Sorcerers and sages as DPS in each DPS spec they are underperforming cosuing the class to get outshined so badly by other classes and specs that basicly sorcerers and sages became utterly unplayable classes and specs as damage dealers. And thats why i demanded, to buff them. And i am quiet sure i am not alone with this facts and demands.

 

They aren't unplayable. I've no issues with madness or lightning, no issues getting into group content and have never been told "oh no you suck at DPS" or anything like that. I've been in plenty of group content and have no issues. I've PvPd and do fairly well in both WZs and arenas and have been the last man standing in some arenas so I don't see that bad of an issue.

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As mainly a raider, I think Sorcerer isn't in need of any particular changes, I have seen quite a few players run the class in Nightmare content and sure although their DPS isn't as high in Brontes burn as for example a Merc, for most other "challenges" in Nightmare the class is perfectly capable to output enough damage. That said, often at Nightmare level players have a better picture of the DPS capabilities of classes and a Sorc main might ask themselves why they wouldn't play Merc, Sniper or some melee where they can do more DPS with less effort than they would do on Sorc.

 

As a result, you end up with quite few good Sorcerer DPS players, which in turn makes it seem like the class is actually worse than it is. OP seems to like to be dramatic and I doubt this thread will achieve anything, but it seems people are a bit uninformed about how Sorcerer preform at nightmare level, hopefully, that will change.

Edited by RikuvonDrake
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why always starting a new topic?

 

the problem is, that you have to find a way between pve and pvp. in pvp the sorcs'n'sages are performing really well, depending on their skill. but you are very mobile and you have tons of abilities, to get out. also the amount of damage you can do, is insane. so mostly i'm even with a tk sage one of the top dps. but you really should now how to deal with it, true.

 

and here is the problem. it is not, that the sorcs'n'sages can't, it is their players. and if the majority is failing playing these speccs, there is something wrong with it. so you have to cut of the top players overperforming with it and the bottom, even undercutting basic lightsaberdamage. i slight buff should be okay, and i think that this wouldn't have hugh effects in pvp or pve. but just a lil bit.

but! the sorcs'n'sages needs some changes to the amount of damage, the different abilites are causing. so i often see ppl playing a wrong "rotation" what causes an insance loss of dps. so it is totally true, that wrong played dps sorc/sage is more underperforming, than another wrong played range dps. and here is the buttom we have to push.

 

so of course the top players would claim, that this is a learn2play topic and they are right with it!

but it doesn't matter, if the majority is failing with this class. so there is a need to change it a bit,

without having a hugh impact.

 

an example?

many burst spec players forget to use <affliction>. it causes an auto-crit of <thundering blast>! they are still claiming to be good dps players ;)

and even the ones, caring about it, don't use it on multiple targets, even if they know, that <chain lightning> is refreshing the dot. tiny detail, but hugh effect.

 

so a rework of the sorcs'n'sages is needed: yes.

but there is really no need to push the dps so much, many try to claim.

 

if they really would increase the dps of them, they need to nerf their mobility and deffs

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And for those who'd rather try doing better with their madness sorc before complaining, are there guide that any of you recommend?

 

Try the ones that were suggested to me in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=958338

 

I haven’t really taken the time to go through them yet, I’ve been busy running alts through class stories to unlock their heroics (legacy dirty kick coming next :D )

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Most of this makes me laugh because any good pvper knows that Sorcs are underperforming compared to all other classes.

Anyone who thinks they are doing great damage should look at the current player base skill lvl in pvp. Most don’t know a DCD if it hit them in the head.

Yes there are some exceptional Sorcs players, but they are the top of the 1% still left on the game and will make the worst spec of any class seem OP because of player skill, not because the class is balanced or OP.

For the last 2.5 years Sorcs (especially lightning) have been at the bottom of the pack in pvp with regards to balance and damage. They do have good survivability, but that’s pointless if you can’t kill anything.

Any two reasonably good players of similar skill with one on a Sorc and one on just about any other class should equal a loss to the Sorc.

But throw a Sorc against any of the current top 4 classes and it’s a slaughter. You can only stay alive for so long till they kill you because here is no way you can do enough damage to kill them. I don’t mind playing against OP classes if there is a chance, but when you hit like a wet towel, it’s kind of pointless trying. You may as well grab your butt and kiss your ankles. It’s less painful that way.

I’ve played my Sorc for 7 years. First in 8v8 ranked and then 4v4 ranked. I’m no stranger to the class or any class as I play all 24 specs in the game. I’ve seen Sorcs be OP, semi balanced and absolute crap. Sorcs aren’t crap at the moment, but they aren’t close to being balanced.

A lot of the problems stem from how they compare to other classes in pvp and all the OP survivability that most classes have these days.

I certainly don’t want Sorcs to be OP. I hate playing an OP class and so I usually put a class back on the shelf for a bit if it becomes OP.

The only way to balance a lightning Sorc better is to reduce some (not much) of its survivability and increase some of it’s burst damage. At the moment the balance is too much in favour of survivability over dps. This shouldn’t be that hard to do and would hopefully balance the spec better and put it in the middle of the pack. Instead of dead last.

Lastly, any dummy parsing numbers used since the new gear is irrelevant. Of course they are doing more damage in pve with higher gear, that’s the idea. But in pvp, every other class also got the same boost and they are doing more damage too.

The OP might be slightly over reacting out of frustration. But they aren’t wrong when they say they need a buff or better yet, a class balance.

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Is this the dps rating list that everyone's looking at and going by?

 

 

DPS Ranking for GEMINI MK-5, Tier 4: Legendary (248 ilvl)

 

 

Rank - DPS+-StdDev - vs Average (9991) DPS --- Imperial - Republic

01 - 10754+-322 - +7.64% --- Operative-Lethality || Scoundrel-Ruffian

02 - 10467+-161 - +4.77% --- Sniper-Virulence || Gunslinger-Dirty Fighting

03 - 10441+-270 - +4.51% --- Sniper-Engineering || Gunslinger-Saboteur

04 - 10432+-414 - +4.42% --- Mercenary-Innovative Ordinance || Commando-Assault Specialist

05 - 10336+-284 - +3.46% --- Marauder-Annihilation || Sentinel-Watchman

06 - 10157+-526 - +1.67% --- Operative-Concealment || Scoundrel-Scrapper

07 - 10157+-582 - +1.67% --- Assassin-Deception || Shadow-Infiltration

08 - 10150+-299 - +1.60% --- Marauder-Carnage || Sentinel-Combat

09 - 10054+-516 - +0.63% --- Mercenary-Arsenal || Commando-Gunnery

10 - 10027+-372 - +0.36% --- Juggernaut-Vengeance || Guardian-Vigilance

11 - 9857+-488 - -1.33% --- Juggernaut-Rage || Guardian-Focus

12 - 9828+-351 - -1.62% --- Marauder-Fury || Sentinel-Concentration

13 - 9679+-505 - -3.12% --- Powertech-Advanced Prototype || Vanguard-Tactics

14 - 9640+-346 - -3.51% --- Assassin-Hatred || Shadow-Serenity

15 - 9556+-383 - -4.35% --- Powertech-Pyrotech || Vanguard-Plasmatech

16 - 9520+-268 - -4.71% --- Sorcerer-Madness || Sage-Balance

17 - 9448+-461 - -5.43% --- Sniper-Marksman || Gunslinger-Sharpshooter

18 - 9327+-304 - -6.64% --- Sorcerer-Lightning || Sage-Telekinetics

 

 

Or has there been an updated listing with the new armor? Because I can tell you that I've pvp'd with my #16 rating madness sorc in 236-240 mixed armor and have won my share of 1v1's and held my own with up to as many as 3 opponents on many occasions until assistance could arrive. Maybe I was just lucky and all of those other players just sucked and I don't know how to really play at all.

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Is this the dps rating list that everyone's looking at and going by?

 

 

DPS Ranking for GEMINI MK-5, Tier 4: Legendary (248 ilvl)

 

 

Rank - DPS+-StdDev - vs Average (9991) DPS --- Imperial - Republic

01 - 10754+-322 - +7.64% --- Operative-Lethality || Scoundrel-Ruffian

02 - 10467+-161 - +4.77% --- Sniper-Virulence || Gunslinger-Dirty Fighting

03 - 10441+-270 - +4.51% --- Sniper-Engineering || Gunslinger-Saboteur

04 - 10432+-414 - +4.42% --- Mercenary-Innovative Ordinance || Commando-Assault Specialist

05 - 10336+-284 - +3.46% --- Marauder-Annihilation || Sentinel-Watchman

06 - 10157+-526 - +1.67% --- Operative-Concealment || Scoundrel-Scrapper

07 - 10157+-582 - +1.67% --- Assassin-Deception || Shadow-Infiltration

08 - 10150+-299 - +1.60% --- Marauder-Carnage || Sentinel-Combat

09 - 10054+-516 - +0.63% --- Mercenary-Arsenal || Commando-Gunnery

10 - 10027+-372 - +0.36% --- Juggernaut-Vengeance || Guardian-Vigilance

11 - 9857+-488 - -1.33% --- Juggernaut-Rage || Guardian-Focus

12 - 9828+-351 - -1.62% --- Marauder-Fury || Sentinel-Concentration

13 - 9679+-505 - -3.12% --- Powertech-Advanced Prototype || Vanguard-Tactics

14 - 9640+-346 - -3.51% --- Assassin-Hatred || Shadow-Serenity

15 - 9556+-383 - -4.35% --- Powertech-Pyrotech || Vanguard-Plasmatech

16 - 9520+-268 - -4.71% --- Sorcerer-Madness || Sage-Balance

17 - 9448+-461 - -5.43% --- Sniper-Marksman || Gunslinger-Sharpshooter

18 - 9327+-304 - -6.64% --- Sorcerer-Lightning || Sage-Telekinetics

 

 

Or has there been an updated listing with the new armor? Because I can tell you that I've pvp'd with my #16 rating madness sorc in 236-240 mixed armor and have won my share of 1v1's and held my own with up to as many as 3 opponents on many occasions until assistance could arrive. Maybe I was just lucky and all of those other players just sucked and I don't know how to really play at all.

 

As a pvper you should know that parsing charts mean jack in pvp, it all comes down to player skill as well as DCDs.

I’ve also won my share of 1v1 against Mara’s and Mercs while on my Sorc. But that’s because they were crap. Just the other day I won a 1v3 encounter again a Mara, Merc and another Sorc. I didn’t win because I’m a superstar. I won because they were seriously bad.

 

But none of that matters because it’s not about how well or bad you or I play, it’s how well the class is balanced and sadly it’s not balanced.

 

Also Bolster has now been increased to 252. So your 236-240 gear is bolstered to to 252, which the majority of people are playing with at the moment. It’s probably the best time to see how balanced the classes are while most people have similar stats.

The best way to do that is find a bunch of people of similar skill and use the guild challenge option. You can then choose 8v8 or 4v4 mode.

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In every meta some specs will be at the bottom...

 

The meta needs changed, sorcs been at the bottom of the food chain for 2+ years now. How long does the most iconic class in the game must remain feeder for mercs/mara/ops/juggs, well heck, every other DPS class in PVP?

 

Lightning sorcs have a joke for burst, their added "survivability" only helps them against crappy players, any decent mara/jugg/sniper/merc will destroy a same skilled lightning sorc.

 

Madness sorcs fair better in killing power but still could use some improvement, if anything just a little more single target damage. I wouldn't mind some serious changing in their abilities too though, the rotation is simple and boring as crap.

 

As for lightning sorc, actually give them burst that hurts. Even if they got to strip off their awesome survivability the class hits like a wet noodle. It's a fun spec for it's mobility and I always enjoyed the sage spec because of the sounds it made compared to the lightning sorc, and at least it's rotation is quite a bit more interesting than madness spec too, but in PVP the specs damage performance is underwhelming. Sure, it puts up great fluff numbers, you can top the charts, but it's not significant damage.

 

I still recall vividly how I could just ignore lightning sorcs that were focusing me when I was on my heals, literally just ignore them. Only time they bothered me was when a decent dps was tunneling me, then their added joke damage amounted to something significant.

 

All DPS ought to have the ability to put enough pressure on a healer that they have to manage their damage quickly, not simply ignore them like some fly buzzing around their face. And it didn't matter what healer I was on, merc heals, sorc heals, I never faced one lightning sorc that troubled me, not one, even the best DPS parsing PVP ling sorcs, I did not care if they were on the other team when I played heals.

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Not sure how anyone can complain about sorcs and sages. They are by far the most versatile class.

  • They have multiple damage mitigation abilities/utilities (bubble, god bubble, cloud mind w/utility, etc).
  • They have not one, but TWO instant heals that cost 1 GCD each (my ruffian scoundrel has to waste 2 gcd's on hots, or roll-heal).
  • They can bubble other players, including tanks.
  • They have a raid buff.
  • They can teleport across the map.
  • They can pull people out of stupid, or toward objectives.

 

So while their single target dps may not be in the top in either spec, they do excel at multiple target dps. They have very good DoT spreads and/or AoE's.

 

 

Anyway, sounds like a L2P issue.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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Not sure how anyone can complain about sorcs and sages. They are by far the most versatile class. Anyway, sounds like a L2P issue.

 

Versatile doesn't equate to potent or effective. From the perspective of someone that played healers predominantly, DPS should hurt. ling sorcs do not hurt. Madness sorcs can hurt when played well.

 

I guess it is a L2P issue for every ling sorc I ever encountered because I never met one that dominated matches and struck fear into me like some of the better mara, mercs, snipers, operatives, juggs, and even the rare PT.

 

I guess nothing but unskilled need 2l players play ling sorcs?

 

There were some madness sorcs that actually hurt my healers, it took them time to ramp up their damage but some madness sorcs really can put decent single target pressure on an enemy.

 

Personally I'd rather have killing power over "versatility" any day as a DPS.

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Versatile doesn't equate to potent or effective. From the perspective of someone that played healers predominantly, DPS should hurt. ling sorcs do not hurt. Madness sorcs can hurt when played well.

 

I guess it is a L2P issue for every ling sorc I ever encountered because I never met one that dominated matches and struck fear into me like some of the better mara, mercs, snipers, operatives, juggs, and even the rare PT.

 

I guess nothing but unskilled need 2l players play ling sorcs?

 

There were some madness sorcs that actually hurt my healers, it took them time to ramp up their damage but some madness sorcs really can put decent single target pressure on an enemy.

 

Personally I'd rather have killing power over "versatility" any day as a DPS.

 

Well okay, regarding lightning/tk, you are right. Lightning sorcs are largely useless in PvP, and TBH, may as well play a Madness Sorc in operations too. I don't think I've ever thought "wow that L sorc wrecked me."

 

I think you pointed out in another post, the larger issue is that the meta is stale af. So true.

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
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Well okay regarding lightning/tk, you are right. Lightning sorcs are largely useless in PvP, and TBH, may as well play a Madness Sorc in operations too. I don't think I've ever thought "wow that L sorc wrecked me."

 

I think you pointed out in another post, the larger issue is that the meta is stale af. So true.

 

rofl right. I have had many mara wreck me, PTs, snipers, you take notice of a class when you end up running for your life from them. I never once had this happen with a ling sorc, haha. That's why I judge them this way.

 

I don't know about in ranked, maybe in the right setup they can wreak havoc with their AoE but I view that as fluff damage, I never seen it cause much notice in regs when I was healing people so I just feel like ling sorcs suck as a DPS when it comes to pure killing power.

 

And yes, the meta is old. I would even consider coming back to the game if they did some adjusting on the classes to change up the meta in PVP. It would be interesting then.

 

I don't need new new maps, new gears, just a change of scenery with the paradigm of power. Some change in class abilities, some altering of the power landscape.

 

I'd even ignore the fact they brought in this utterly dumb gear grind, just to test different classes in PVP. What I can't do is a new awful gear grind doing the same old ****.

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This is odd.

 

I was in a TOS HM just last week with a Sorc DPS. He was in 248/252 gear and auged 240, who was doing 10k to 12k dps on bosses.

 

Not 10k-12k on the test dummy - 10k-12k on BOSSES. Malaphar, Underlurker, Revanite Commanders.

 

And of course, I congratulated him as being at the top of what is a difficult class to play.

 

Keep in mind, Sorcs are a ranged class, and as Bioware made clear a year ago, as a base, they want ranged classes to not perform as high as melee classes.

 

So perhaps you need to verify your GCD against a test dummy, review your rotation...and take a hint from this particular Sorc DPS:

 

"Please do not bubble me!"

 

=8-)

My main is a lightning sorcerer and I've played her through the years of utter awesomeness and the latter years of nerfed fail. I don't bother doing Ops (because nope) but I have joined the world boss groups out of necessity for the new grind. I've noticed that lightning spec is pretty good in a world boss group which was very surprising (so long as some idiot doesn't shield me - e*f off). I am also able to do the heroic H4 on Ossus with my lightning sorcerer & companion avoiding having to group for it (both with my old 248 gear and the slightly better 251 gear).

Where lightning fails is in PvP (God Help Us) - it's been a disaster since the first round of nerfs a few years back and I know that I'm going in there marked for easy death against the stabby-shooties every time. I don't even bother trying ranked (even though I'd like to) as it will be hell. Solo stuff as lightning can be tedious - I always have my companion on damage for weeklies and H2s. My Madness sorcerers are noticeably better at everything I do in the game even with crappier gear than my main. Lightning reminds me of my shadow priest from WoW past - in PvP I never bothered with shadow - I always switched to my heal spec (healing priests in WoW were like healing sorcerers in SWTOR - they were almost unstoppable). It would be great if we could do the same in SWTOR - having the option of dual spec would be ideal for me. At the moment I can't be arsed respeccing; I just suffer the lightning spec consequences in PvP.

Edited by Sarova
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I've seen this brought up a couple of times in this thread and elsewhere--can anyone point me to the tooltip or guide or reason for not bubbling certain classes? I've been told recently I don't bubble enough, and very occasionally I'll see people lose their **** about being bubbled. I worked on spam-bubbling in a raid the other night with starparse and my protection numbers were huge and I was actually getting better HPS and eHPS overall (may have been unrelated, sure)
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