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Dear Bioware please balance PVP Teams


Darkjolith

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Dear Bioware,

 

I tried SWTOR on Dec 2012 and enjoyed your storylines and PVE content that I decided to subscribe. I got my first Level 50 and started new alts. On PVE Content I have found your game mostly balanced and fun.

 

I started PVPing and it's just not fair. How does a new player compete with pre-made teams that are far better geared. They are so vastly superiorly geared that it's not worth PVPing as a new player. The warzones I enter is just one sided. The new player is dead within 3 to 5 seconds, this is not fun.

 

Please address this issue, why would any of your new players that have just subscribed want to renew when they are just killed over and over. There must be some sort of rating system you can implement , giving gear a number and the sum of over all gear is somewhat equal to the two teams facing against each other.

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lets see...

 

pure random vs a premade on voice = fair??

 

Not in a million years.

 

Lets try that with sports and see how long it lasts! Premade professional team vs random people that dont even know who they will be with!

 

To defend that is simply disgusting.

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gear means little when facing vet premades; that IS the problem.

I believe this is what he means.

Not just the gear level but the experience of the players in 50 pvp.

 

random v premade = failure

 

Honestly unless this is fixed, it is the one thing that will cause me to cancel.

 

No way this could possibly be considered fair.

 

And if you have to use premade to compete, doesnt make you any good... if all you face are randoms.

Edited by thegreebler
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gear means little when facing vet premades; that IS the problem.

I believe this is what he means.

Not just the gear level but the experience of the players in 50 pvp.

 

random v premade = failure

 

Honestly unless this is fixed, it is the one thing that will cause me to cancel.

 

No way this could possibly be considered fair.

 

And if you have to use premade to compete, doesnt make you any good... if all you face are randoms.

 

I kind of agree with you here, in that the way they are matching up teams is horrendous, and it is sucking the fun out of this game for me...to the point that as someone who has played, loved, and defended this game since beta I am thinking about throwing in the towel. I PUG and that is it and one of two things happens in EVERY war zone I am in...I am on a team that literally steam rolls over the opposing team as if they aren't even there or I am on a team where the other side seems to melt through us as of none of are even wearing armor. Neither one of these is much fun (though of course winning is preferable between the two), but very very few times do I ever get into a WZ that is even remotely evenly matched.

 

I don't know if the times we seem to destroy it is by sheer dumb luck that I have gotten on a team that partially a premade or not, but here is what I personally have come to experience over the past couple of months. I love the warrior class as I have always preferred melee to ranged. Even in SP games I will not play shooters as I can't stand them as I crave in your face melee combat. Anyway, getting tired of NEVER while playing my Mara, and I literally mean NEVER, getting a healer on my team I stupidly thought "wow our side needs some healers in PVP" and rolled one. I am not exaggerating in the least to say with my healer I have not once EVER gotten into a WZ where I am the only healer for my side, and would estimate about 50% to 60% of the time there are 3 of us and about 10 to 15% of the time have had 4 or more healers on my WZ team.

 

At this point I stupidly thought "wow, everyone else must have gotten tired of no healers in PVP and rolled one as well". So preferring the warrior I went back to my Mara....suddenly it appeared healers were again lacking on our side in PVP as I went from teams of at least 2 or 3 healers to having a healer on my team about 10% of the time. At this point I was getting frustrated and went back to my healer and sure enough was getting teams that were constantly made up of no less than two or three healers.

 

I have no idea *** they are doing during the queuing the match up teams, but it is horrendous. I doubt they are literally trying to make team matching awful and it is likely just the luck of the draw, but come on it should NOT be that difficult to match up several queued healers to teams with to spread them out a bit. I am frustrated especially after experiencing first hand how terrible the queuing and team making function works in this game. While player skill is one thing simple things like DPS/Heals/Guard abilities between teams and classes should be fairly simple to match up, however, based upon my own experience Bioware gets and epic fail in this department.

 

As for premades...seriously is it that difficult to match group queued against group queued? I understand that many premades avoid ranked because they aren't that good but can get a leg up against pure PUG teams, but it can't be that difficult to match say a group that queues 4 against a team that is comprised of a group that has also queued at least 4. Seems fairly simple to do (at least during higher pop times). I understand not everyone likes a fair fight and some prefer the ego stroke of their seeming ability to face their opponents even though they have a huge leg up on them, their ego stroke shouldn't come at the cost of others choosing not roll with premades get face rolled constantly. If you want a group PVP this game provides you with the option to do so. Why aren't the premades, if they be as skilled as they want to believe they are, rolling there?

 

PVP needs a bit more of a balance and not because the classes are not really that balanced but because the queuing/team matching system really is quite atrocious.

Edited by onstorm
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lets see...

 

pure random vs a premade on voice = fair??

 

Not in a million years.

 

Lets try that with sports and see how long it lasts! Premade professional team vs random people that dont even know who they will be with!

 

To defend that is simply disgusting.

 

Been saying the same since release, and only replies I get are from trolls.

Edited by Brimmer
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I don't know if the times we seem to destroy it is by sheer dumb luck that I have gotten on a team that partially a premade or not, but here is what I personally have come to experience over the past couple of months. I love the warrior class as I have always preferred melee to ranged. Even in SP games I will not play shooters as I can't stand them as I crave in your face melee combat. Anyway, getting tired of NEVER while playing my Mara, and I literally mean NEVER, getting a healer on my team I stupidly thought "wow our side needs some healers in PVP" and rolled one. I am not exaggerating in the least to say with my healer I have not once EVER gotten into a WZ where I am the only healer for my side, and would estimate about 50% to 60% of the time there are 3 of us and about 10 to 15% of the time have had 4 or more healers on my WZ team.

 

 

Basically this. We would get much less complaints about premades in wz if the matchmaking simply tried to also match teams by composition.

Wz queues are really low right now, we can afford to lengthen them a bit to improve the class balancing of groups. Why can't we just implement the queuing by role like we have for group finder? With the only difference that after it has tried for a bit it will let you play with whatever classes you have, instead of stopping wz pop until you find those 2 healers.

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I don't know if the times we seem to destroy it is by sheer Anyway, getting tired of NEVER while playing my Mara, and I literally mean NEVER, getting a healer on my team I stupidly thought "wow our side needs some healers in PVP" and rolled one. I am not exaggerating in the least to say with my healer I have not once EVER gotten into a WZ where I am the only healer for my side, and would estimate about 50% to 60% of the time there are 3 of us and about 10 to 15% of the time have had 4 or more healers on my WZ team.

 

At this point I stupidly thought "wow, everyone else must have gotten tired of no healers in PVP and rolled one as well". So preferring the warrior I went back to my Mara....suddenly it appeared healers were again lacking on our side in PVP as I went from teams of at least 2 or 3 healers to having a healer on my team about 10% of the time. At this point I was getting frustrated and went back to my healer and sure enough was getting teams that were constantly made up of no less than two or three healers.

 

 

When you are playing on your healer and getting into warzones with 7 other healers why don't you write down the names of the good ones and invite them to play with you on your Mara?

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Didnt read the wall up there so this might have been mentioned already, it probably has since the wall must have covered every aspect of .....well what we know...about everything.

 

Anyhow, while matching premades against premades should be a simple matter, assuming they're prepared to let people queue a tad longer it's not as easy with roles and gear.

 

Roles: They would either have to let people manually fill in what they would like to queue as or have some 19 point threshold for tanks and healers. Manual selections should work, give or take human errors where people accidently fill in the wrong role, because it would be stupid of people to deliberatly sign up as healer when they're really dps. They would only screw themselves over by doing a thing like that.

 

Gear: Gear is really tricky since it's possible to swap. People would exploit it by queueing with 12K HP just to swtich to their full WH sets as soon as they had been accepted as the newbie on the team. So are they going to somehow prevent people from switching gear in warzones? Then we're back to the human error and people accidently queueing in their pve gear. I guess that could count as recruit but it wouldnt be optimal since recruit is better than tionese, for pvp.

 

The solution to everything is to get rid of expertise.

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The solution to everything is to get rid of expertise.

 

This. Let PvP and PvE reward the same gear, and make gear mostly irrelevant for PvP.

 

And the OP has a valid point. I just completed a new alt to 50, did nothing but PvP for the last several levels. I ended up with 3500 ranked and 2500 regular comms, enough to buy relics, implants, and ear. The rest of my gear ended up recruit, and it sucks horribly compared to optimized EWH. Right now, I only complete my daily on that toon, because it isn't fun to be completely uncompetitive, and it isn't fair to the people that I end up queued with. I spend more time on my EWH/WH sage acquiring comms and gear for my alt.

 

The people responding with "it took me months to acquire WH gear that you can now get in a week" are not getting it. Your last few PvP matches at 49 are competitive and fun. Your first few PvP matches at 50 are awful, and this should be addressed, because it represents a huge disincentive to keep playing.

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There is indeed a problem with the gear gap from recruit to WH, but with maxed comms as you described you should have almost full WH right from the start, which is plenty competitive.

 

I'm assuming this is directed to me, so I'll respond. You should re-check the prices on the WH gear. Yes, it is much less expensive now, but since you can only stack up to 2750 regular comms, you cannot get anywhere near full WH from the start.

 

Regular comms:

550 - Relic#1 (EWH)

550 - Relic#2 (EWH)

550 - Bracers

625 - Ear

625 - Impant #1

625 - Implant #2

625 - Belt

875 - Boots

875 - Gloves

975 - Legs

1075 - Head

1425 - Chest

1550 - Main hand

1550 - Off hand

 

If you go from least to most expensive, you will run out of comms before you can purchase the first implant. If the EWH ear and implants are worse itemizations than the WH, you could possibly buy more gear by trading ranked comms back into regular comms. But that is a really stupid thing to do long term since they lose 2/3 of their original value. Plus, you will have spent 2500 of your ranked comms on relics anyway, leaving a maximum of 2000 comms left to convert. That would get you up to the belt, but not enough to buy boots.

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This. Let PvP and PvE reward the same gear, and make gear mostly irrelevant for PvP.

 

And the OP has a valid point. I just completed a new alt to 50, did nothing but PvP for the last several levels. I ended up with 3500 ranked and 2500 regular comms, enough to buy relics, implants, and ear. The rest of my gear ended up recruit, and it sucks horribly compared to optimized EWH. Right now, I only complete my daily on that toon, because it isn't fun to be completely uncompetitive, and it isn't fair to the people that I end up queued with. I spend more time on my EWH/WH sage acquiring comms and gear for my alt.

 

The people responding with "it took me months to acquire WH gear that you can now get in a week" are not getting it. Your last few PvP matches at 49 are competitive and fun. Your first few PvP matches at 50 are awful, and this should be addressed, because it represents a huge disincentive to keep playing.

 

You gain the equivalent of a ****** piece of extra gear from optimized EWH compared to optimized WH. The difference is minute and the only reason people use it now is to complain about a gear grind which is hardly a gear grind. You will get your chops licked but instead of the old system which took some players 5 months to get min/maxed it can be done in less than 5 weeks.

 

You're just bad.

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You gain the equivalent of a ****** piece of extra gear from optimized EWH compared to optimized WH. The difference is minute and the only reason people use it now is to complain about a gear grind which is hardly a gear grind. You will get your chops licked but instead of the old system which took some players 5 months to get min/maxed it can be done in less than 5 weeks.

 

You're just bad.

 

Uhm, ok. Way to miss the point.

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lets see...

 

pure random vs a premade on voice = fair??

 

Not in a million years.

 

Lets try that with sports and see how long it lasts! Premade professional team vs random people that dont even know who they will be with!

 

To defend that is simply disgusting.

 

That's the disconnect with game life and real life.

 

Been saying the same since release, and only replies I get are from trolls.

 

There's been the same suggestion rolling on the forums for months, no groups* in PUG WZ, a 4 group on 4 group WZ, and ranked WZ.

 

* While trolls post, 'friends will still be able to talk to each other', the random player selection would most times scatter those 4 friends into 4 different WZs. Have fun coordinating with that.

 

Once upon a time, two of us were watching a day long two-court basketball session. Game ended when a set number of points were scored. The morning was PUGs, 5 on 5 random players. Competitive, but a horrible uncoordinated mess. Mid-day was PUGs vs PUGs who formed groups. Total slaughter; groups won all but one of the matches. Sound familiar? Fortunately that was a short demonstration to participants, that teamwork will win over solo play. PUG group vs PUG group was brutal, competitive, but more coordinated. Second best segment of the day.** The rest of the day was group versus group. Ending with a match of two retired pros versus a randomly selected 5 man group. Guess how that ended? ***

 

** And a yes to being having players watch WZ matches. Something to do while waiting for your match to spawn.

*** They lost, with smiles.

 

You want competitive matches? Set up 4/group vs 4/group WZs.

 

Since Bioware won't likely change anything, enjoy the short gear grind.

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So far I've had several matches where we were owned by a pre-made, several where we were owned by better PUG and several where we were the ones that did all the "owning" :).

I only PUG, so I can't say what a pre-made against PUG experience feels like, but to me it must be mostly people that get hard (or wet, depending on their sex) that enjoy being in a pre-made and play against a PUG. How else can you have fun or any kind of enjoyment against a group of players that are destined to loose in any case? But it is an MMO, so every kind of personalities is in an abundance.

 

Gear disparity is one thing, it's a basic concept of this game, but group disparity is something completely different. It can be adjusted and improved. It just takes a dedicated developer and desire to improve. I am afraid that in case of EAWare neither exists. They have their favorite toy (Cartel market) and they are unwilling to let it go and pick one of the others (older toys) up. Just look at the number of topics about this subject and their lack of response and you will see how much they try to ignore this. But their incompetence or lack of desire is for another topic.

 

Getting against a pre-made is a pain. And being better than the other team (both PUGs) so much that they sit on their behinds for more than half of the match is also pain. But in first case there is a simple solution, in latter one there isn't. If playing with few buddies is the only way someone wants to fight, than SWTOR should accommodate them, but not on the backs of others. It's their (very few players') desire to play together, so its them that should be "punished" with longer queue times or necessity to queue for ranked WZs. If that is not enough, they should get another form or option of playing in a WZ and not get PUG as an opponent.

I don't know what, I am fairly new to MMO games and don't know how others have solved this problem so far.

 

But some solution should get implemented into this game. PUG and pre-made are similar only if viewed from far, far away. It's a group of players, that is the only similarity. The closer you get to them, more differences you notice and this needs to get addressed by EAWare.

Many people feel like they are playing against exploiters when they get a certain pre-made in a WZ, and even if they know that is not he case, the feeling that leaves in their mouth is very bitter, not matter what. Repeat this process several times and they have less and less desire to join another WZ.

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I'm assuming this is directed to me, so I'll respond. You should re-check the prices on the WH gear. Yes, it is much less expensive now, but since you can only stack up to 2750 regular comms, you cannot get anywhere near full WH from the start.

 

Regular comms:

550 - Relic#1 (EWH)

550 - Relic#2 (EWH)

550 - Bracers

625 - Ear

625 - Impant #1

625 - Implant #2

625 - Belt

875 - Boots

875 - Gloves

975 - Legs

1075 - Head

1425 - Chest

1550 - Main hand

1550 - Off hand

 

If you go from least to most expensive, you will run out of comms before you can purchase the first implant. If the EWH ear and implants are worse itemizations than the WH, you could possibly buy more gear by trading ranked comms back into regular comms. But that is a really stupid thing to do long term since they lose 2/3 of their original value. Plus, you will have spent 2500 of your ranked comms on relics anyway, leaving a maximum of 2000 comms left to convert. That would get you up to the belt, but not enough to buy boots.

 

Ranked Comms to Regular Comms is 1:1 now. I have a character nearing 50 that will enter her first match in full WH with a little help from my main.

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Ranked Comms to Regular Comms is 1:1 now. I have a character nearing 50 that will enter her first match in full WH with a little help from my main.

 

Yeah, but what he basically says it's that such an exchange is short sighted. I partly agree and partly not. Still you have the change to do that, and i'll probably do it with my tank vanguard since i'm not interested in EWH.

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I spent months to get the gear I have, you can now get a tier lower (very little difference) in a few days if you want, stop crying. Furthermore if you leveled up intending to play PvP you should have more than decent enough gear to compete as soon as you hit 50.

 

Gear gap is still a huge issue in PvP. Elite War Heros should be going to a separate bracket.

 

And Bioware should decide that they want a Player vs. Player or a Gear vs. Gear game. Because the two is not the same.

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Uhm, ok. Way to miss the point.

 

What point did I miss. People are still complaining about the gear gap when they keep making it easier and easier to gear out your character. Better recruit gear, a raised cap so you have more coms when dinging 50, making WH the cost of BM with no trade up option anymore, and they will be making expertise the same on all gear levels sometime. I mean what more can they do aside from handing out WH gear for free (I think it would be a mistake). They are also coming out with an actual matchmaking system.

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