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Nobody wants to play with sorc/sage dpsers

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Nobody wants to play with sorc/sage dpsers

Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.17.2018 , 08:59 PM | #21
And there we go, rational replies and discussion.

I find the difference between best and worse dps options quite disgusting. The fights don't even exist that justify the output difference but the developers aren't asking for opinions.
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DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
04.18.2018 , 01:16 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
And there we go, rational replies and discussion.

I find the difference between best and worse dps options quite disgusting. The fights don't even exist that justify the output difference but the developers aren't asking for opinions.
Just to be clear, I stated very clearly what I meant by viable.

Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
I said that sorc dps (which includes both lightning and madness since you seem to just be arguing about lightning) is viable for every HM/NiM fight. Viable means possible in that a well played sorc can contribute the requisite dps to meet the dps check without having to have their lack of damage made up for by another class. That means that the damage a sorc dps spec brings is sufficient. It does not mean that it is sufficient if and only if another class is carrying them. And 20% armor reduction matters quite a bit, especially to sorc since a lot of their damage (especially in lightning) is kinetic and therefore benefits greatly from an armor debuff.

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DarthCognusSion
04.24.2018 , 07:32 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
A bold claim.

It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.

So if I suggest the scenario of four lightning sorcs as the dps for 8m NiM TFB, you reckon that's viable?

An alternative to the word "viable" is "enjoyable".
Sorry it isn't TFB, but I hope this works for you:

4 Sorc Brontes

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LordTurin
04.24.2018 , 07:49 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
Sorry it isn't TFB, but I hope this works for you:

4 Sorc Brontes
This is beautiful.
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Gyronamics
04.25.2018 , 04:06 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
Sorry it isn't TFB, but I hope this works for you:

4 Sorc Brontes
Yep the video works, it's all good. Brontes is a worthy alternative.

Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the difference for us. The wiping on such a known fight must have been quite irritating.

As we can see, for the sales run (where the team expects to carry the dead weight of a buyer) the idea is to be reliable so they choose to bring a dps section of commando, slinger, vanguard. You don't want to meme in front of a buyer. Nightmare crystals compensate for the buyers slot.

It didn't work out but the arrangement was fine.

Then for the demonstration we have two hours of pulling over on impside with mirror tanks and healers but this time the dps are 3 lightning and 1 madness sorc. No crystals but 4 experienced dps instead of a buyer slot.

This is a group that knows the fight well enough to do timed runs and sell it but you can see the struggle is real with this composition.

Finally the RNG aligns and a kill happens with only 3 of the team dead, the 4th death doesn't count because the boss died first.

Mathematically impossible is a phrase not used since 2013 and this is why. That's 2 hours and half a dead team who've killed that fight for years but also a dead Brontes.

Thankfully no one said anything about full sorc being impossible in any fight around here. This video may reassure players that bringing enough skill to a fight makes any dps composition possible.

No, what we can see in action here is the point I was illustrating through this thread although perhaps some missed the point entirely. The differences between the best dps choices and the worst ones are substantial and you have to work hard to compensate for the sandbagging. This is on the game designers for enforcing such differences not the players who want to play classes they like. You can bring preferred classes and have an easy life, faceroll dps checks, laugh at mechanics. Other options include classes that suffer and sandbag more by design. Even with a quality team the penalties between classes are frustrating.

Many thanks again to the squad of <Failure> and <It's Lit> for their demonstration of what dps they like to bring to brontes and then showing us how it goes with full sorc dps in this challenging fight.
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DarthCognusSion's Avatar


DarthCognusSion
04.25.2018 , 04:32 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Yep the video works, it's all good. Brontes is a worthy alternative.

Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the difference for us. The wiping on such a known fight must have been quite irritating.

As we can see, for the sales run (where the team expects to carry the dead weight of a buyer) the idea is to be reliable so they choose to bring a dps section of commando, slinger, vanguard. You don't want to meme in front of a buyer. Nightmare crystals compensate for the buyers slot.

It didn't work out but the arrangement was fine.

Then for the demonstration we have two hours of pulling over on impside with mirror tanks and healers but this time the dps are 3 lightning and 1 madness sorc. No crystals but 4 experienced dps instead of a buyer slot.

This is a group that knows the fight well enough to do timed runs and sell it but you can see the struggle is real with this composition.

Finally the RNG aligns and a kill happens with only 3 of the team dead, the 4th death doesn't count because the boss died first.

Mathematically impossible is a phrase not used since 2013 and this is why. That's 2 hours and half a dead team who've killed that fight for years but also a dead Brontes.

Thankfully no one said anything about full sorc being impossible in any fight around here. This video may reassure players that bringing enough skill to a fight makes any dps composition possible.

No, what we can see in action here is the point I was illustrating through this thread although perhaps some missed the point entirely. The differences between the best dps choices and the worst ones are substantial and you have to work hard to compensate for the sandbagging. This is on the game designers for enforcing such differences not the players who want to play classes they like. You can bring preferred classes and have an easy life, faceroll dps checks, laugh at mechanics. Other options include classes that suffer and sandbag more by design. Even with a quality team the penalties between classes are frustrating.

Many thanks again to the squad of <Failure> and <It's Lit> for their demonstration of what dps they like to bring to brontes and then showing us how it goes with full sorc dps in this challenging fight.
You are truly outstanding. You claim that sorc is only viable if its dps is made up for by other classes. We then do a 4 sorc dps comp on brontes (remember no armor debuff) so there is no other dps class to carry the sorcs. Yet this is still not good enough? 4 sorcs was the extreme to show that they dont need another class to carry them. It's clear that you refuse to admit that you were wrong. Obviously no amount of evidence will be enough for you. For anyone else who is reasonable, it's plain to see that a sorc can meet required dps checks, even without the armor debuff that every group makes sure that they have.

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Gyronamics
04.25.2018 , 05:09 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
You are truly outstanding. You claim that sorc is only viable if its dps is made up for by other classes. We then do a 4 sorc dps comp on brontes (remember no armor debuff) so there is no other dps class to carry the sorcs. Yet this is still not good enough? 4 sorcs was the extreme to show that they dont need another class to carry them. It's clear that you refuse to admit that you were wrong. Obviously no amount of evidence will be enough for you. For anyone else who is reasonable, it's plain to see that a sorc can meet required dps checks, even without the armor debuff that every group makes sure that they have.
You are terribly bitter and determined to believe it's about sorcs when I made it crystal clear by slowly spelling it out, that a range of options fit the same scenario and "lightning sorc" is merely a filler to suit the subforum.

But then you did ignore what I said from the start.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
There's no fight to be had. Just be honest about it. It's all about DPS in the tightest fights and the developers do not allow all classes to be equally competitive.
And insisted on a fight about... the imaginary argument. Now here we are with you making the effort to carry on a raid into a full sorc comp to prove... ???

Well it certainly gave me evidence that you neither care for full sorc dps when it matters and that it didn't go smoothly. Do you recall me talking of dps differences and not approving of them earlier? Apparently not.

All that effort to make it about sorcs despite being told it wasn't about sorc dps.

Not sure what to do other than laugh in your face.

It took you to page 3 to eventually answer a clear question from page 1 and it seemed settled.

Now you post a tryhard evening to reddit then here as if it wasn't settled and I give you a suitable reply.
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DarthCognusSion
04.25.2018 , 07:17 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
You are terribly bitter and determined to believe it's about sorcs when I made it crystal clear by slowly spelling it out, that a range of options fit the same scenario and "lightning sorc" is merely a filler to suit the subforum.

But then you did ignore what I said from the start.



And insisted on a fight about... the imaginary argument. Now here we are with you making the effort to carry on a raid into a full sorc comp to prove... ???

Well it certainly gave me evidence that you neither care for full sorc dps when it matters and that it didn't go smoothly. Do you recall me talking of dps differences and not approving of them earlier? Apparently not.

All that effort to make it about sorcs despite being told it wasn't about sorc dps.

Not sure what to do other than laugh in your face.

It took you to page 3 to eventually answer a clear question from page 1 and it seemed settled.

Now you post a tryhard evening to reddit then here as if it wasn't settled and I give you a suitable reply.
Believe what you want. You have stated very clearly so many times that bottom end dps can only clear content if they are carried by other classes, and that they couldn't provide the necessary dps to meet the tough dps checks. We provided evidence in direct contradicton to your statements. If you want to continue to believe and claim that we have proved nothing then I suppose nobody can stop you, but you look like a fool doing so.

Here are some examples of those claims just in case you try to refute that too.

First it was this:
Spoiler


Then it was this:
Spoiler


Then this:
Spoiler

And finally, this:

Spoiler


Seems to me you were very clear in what you thought about bottom end dps. It just turns out your opinion isn't correct, at least for Sorc. But hey, you can keep arguing the point for arsenal merc and mm sniper if you want I guess.

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Opiklo
04.25.2018 , 07:36 AM | #29
@gyron

just admit when you are wrong... everthing else just makes you look stupid
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Gyronamics's Avatar


Gyronamics
04.25.2018 , 08:30 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
Seems to me you were very clear in what you thought about bottom end dps. It just turns out your opinion isn't correct, at least for Sorc.
This is rich.

I posed a statement and asked you a a question based on your statement way back on page 1 and between then and here is a ton of completely unnecessary drama.

If you had the understanding to put your reply from page 3 just after my original comment there would be the opportunity for a conversation but by the time you finally answered I decided it was already too toxic to continue.

I summed up the last effort to spell it out for you on the previous page.

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthCognusSion View Post
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

I state that Sorc dps is viable for all HM/NiM content because multiple people have proven it to be by clearing the content as a sorc dps. You then reply talking about doing NiM as 4 sorcs. Explain to me how that is not a strawman argument. Your point is based on 4 lightning sorcs (or aresenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) doing NiM content when i simply said that any sorc dps spec is viable, ie capable of doing the content.
Very well then, I will spell out the legitimate question I put to you:

Your claims were:

1) Both sorc dps are valid for every fight in every mode.

2) Your proof is because sorcs have gone through the content

This is what my words were:

Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
It's possible to go through most content in game as a weak dps spec... as long as important slack is made up by the other dps.
I state that position as mine based on personal experience and then asked if you agreed or disagreed with it:

I put the question of 4 of the lowest damage spec as the only dps into a dps check and asked if you think that is realistic.


Quote: Originally Posted by Gyronamics View Post
So if I suggest the scenario of four lightning sorcs as the dps for 8m NiM TFB, you reckon that's viable?

An alternative to the word "viable" is "enjoyable".
The reason for lightning sorcs (or arsenal mercs, or mm snipers, or whatever combo) is because all three have low damage output. The lowest.

Do you think they can realistically pass the hardest dps checks if better dps specs are not in the group (as the example shows).

There's no fake argument and I haven't pretended you said anything different. I'm asking you to your face if your definition of valid means they do enough damage individually to pass the hardest dps checks. If not then It's as I said, they require better dps specs to be with them to pass that content.

If you are happy to call valid as simply being in a group that kills the boss then so be it.

Like I said I've cleared it all in the worst dps spec and I've already shared my view on that.
We could have had a reasonable discussion, I wished to invite talk on the line of dps disparity, which of course involves but is not specially about sorc specs. Much toxic talk later that's not going to happen. End of discussion surely... and yet...

I now know you were so triggered that afterwards you went to the effort of diverting a raid. Almost funny. Except you didn't have anything resembling a conversation with me in the first place so you latched onto only what you wanted to.

What makes you think your efforts to communicate suddenly deserve my sincere attention after being obtuse when I requested yours.
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