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dipstik

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Thread title is wrong and its not updating it when i try to edit it. hybrid tanks take much less damage per second than a full tank build

 

Edit: I didn't know hybrid gets the same blade barrier and more frequent. And people asre reporting 993 damage absorbed, but this will vary with bonus healing. At a balanced 1800 mitigation pool we have the following taken dps for a 3000dps boss with 10% internal elemental and 50% of attacks at 100% accuracy and the rest 90%.

 

full: 601.5, hybrid at 561

 

using 990/9 absorbed dps for hybrid and 990/12 for full we get 519 for full and 451 for hybrid.

 

this is all based on info you can find in the tanking stat weights thread, along with the damage reduction info from AMR of full 63 jugg tanks.

 

considering that bonus healing increases the barrier absorb amount, and i think strength influences this stat, i think goign with the high strength mods and the high endurance enhancements is the way to go.

Edited by dipstik
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I play a Guardian Tank, same as Jugg, and I disagree. I have run Full Defense builds and a hybrid build. I have looked at the logs for each in the same fight and the Hybrid comes out ahead.

 

The 4% DR is more effective than a extra 4% Chance to shield an attack.

 

As a Hybrid I get Blade Barrier more often. 9 seconds versus 12, and your absorb number seems low. In logs mine absorbs 994 damage every time.

 

Also in my hybrid spec when I leap to start a combat I get an addition 20% DR for 4 seconds, which is not to be discounted.

 

I found in Hybrid I took 18 DPS less, while that doesn't seem like much in a fight that goes 5 minutes it works out to 5,400 less damage taken.

 

Using a Tanking spreadsheet from the MMO mechanics forums my Effective health is high in the Hybrid build and that does not take into account the increased use of Blade Barrier.

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this is all based on info you can find in the tanking stat weights thread, along with the damage reduction info from AMR of full 63 jugg tanks.

 

I would really recommend you check your math again. The only thing, from a mitigation standpoint, that Full defense has over the hybrid is 4% shield chance. Considering that stat allocation provides to all of 50% absorb value at best, this means all of 2% reduction in M/R damage. hybrid's advantages are 25% more Blade Storm (9 sec CD compared to 12 sec) and 4% K/E DR: since M/R attacks can only ever be K/E damage (there are no I/E M/R attacks in game), you're getting roughly twice the mitigation gains against M/R attacks (it's not explicitly double because DR and shield mitigation are calculated at separate points; the DR is actually going to contribute *more* because it applies against the ~67% of the attack that aren't parried rather than 33% that are shielded) as you would be getting the bonus to shield chance. And that's completely ignoring the higher contributions from Blade Storm.

 

I would *really* like to see the formulas you're using to draw your conclusion since, in all honestly, everything you're saying *flies* in the face of pretty basic math.

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I run Immortal and know that Hybrid get's more in terms of pure mitigation but the difference is miniscule, to quote an earlier post.

 

I found in Hybrid I took 18 DPS less, while that doesn't seem like much in a fight that goes 5 minutes it works out to 5,400 less damage taken.

 

From a healer PoV that's just not a noticeable difference and RNG will have more of an impact, as will any derps by DPS.

 

I prefer Immortal on snap threat basis and because CB looks a lot better than Impale (not sure about Guardian animations). Resource management is also easier.

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i was doing this for a guildy so im not terribly familiar.

 

so youre all saying that the hybrid build gets 993 damage absorbed every 9 seconds from sonic barrier or whatever too? that makes hybrid come out WAY ahead. sosmoen told me that full spec was better cuz the absorbed damage, but i must have misunderstood.

 

will post methodology tomorrow. barrier amount depends on power and mainstats, so i willl have to approximate that part.

 

without considering the blade barrier we have

 

full: 789.3, hybrid at 760.5, These numbers are based on my intial calculation on two builds from AMR and not completely equal ones. the original post has completely equal builds.

 

using 990/9 absorbed dps for hybrid and 990/12 for full we get 706.8 for full and 650.5 for hybrid.

Edited by dipstik
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I also run the full immortal spec juggernaut, the survivability is minimally worse but the threat generation is so much better with my rotation that I find its better for the group.

 

I highly doubt the threat generation is much better. I'd like to know what your opener is like, I could easily see an opener from the Hybrid spec doing more damage and threat.

 

In the first 15 seconds of a fight, a full Immortal will get off 1 Crushing Blow, a hybrid will get off 2 Impales, and Impale actually does the same amount of threat as Crushing Blow, if not a bit more, because of how much more damage it does. You also get more Screams in (your third best threat move as a Jugg because of the damage it does), and the damage from Backhand/Hilt Strike is pathetic enough that its high threat modifier doesn't even really matter, only makes it about on par with a Scream or Smash.

 

The only real advantage for an Immortal Jugg for snap threat early on in a fight is 20% more damage on Smash. But being able to use 2 Impales before an Immortal can use 2 Crushing Blow's, or 3 Impales in the time Immortal gets 2 CB's, is a rather big advantage for the Hybrid spec for snap threat. Not to mention Hybrid Jugg gets 3% accuracy from the Vengeance tree which helps to make sure Impale hits (no help on Crushing Blow for Immortal), and it also gets a bleed that does about 20% of the damage Scream does tacked onto it.

 

The only area that I do think Immortal can shine is in long term sustained damage/threat, because of how much better their Focus/Rage management will be over the course of a long fight. But sustained threat is never an issue in TOR because of how taunts work.

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without considering the blade barrier we have

 

full: 789.3, hybrid at 760.5

 

I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.

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I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.

 

I never managed that. the pre blade barrier numbers for hybrid are less (hence better). those numbers were me trying to work backwards, I have updated numbers.

 

here is the methodology:

 

for reference, look at the tanking stat weights for the variable definitions.

 

> Juggernaut Tanking 32-7-2;

 

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+10+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )): ;

> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+19+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):

> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

> ac90 := .5;

> ac100 := .5;

> ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr));

 

> HYBRID Juggernaut Tanking 17-22-2;

 

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+10+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )): ;

> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(5 +12+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):

> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

> ac90 := .5;

> ac100 := .5;

> mit(dr,shr,abr):=ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr));

 

 

where mit(dr,shr,abr) gives the mitigation from the mitigation stats. you can see that full jugg has 4% more shield.

 

to make my life easier i took the balanced numbers for 1400 to 2000 and created a linear regression that gives mit(N), where N=dr+shr+abr. this gives:

 

M[FJ](N):=-4.608E-5*N+0.346: for full jugg (FJ) and M[J](N):=-4.068E-5*N+0.3267: for hybrid jugg (HJ)

 

now i take the kinetic vs elemental into account by MA(N,DR[iK],DR[iE]):=0.9*M*DR[iK]+0.1*DR[iE]

where MA is mitigation with armor/DR and i is used as a placeholder for HJ or FJ

 

where DR[iK] is the damage reduction for kinetic (which is 1-0.5311 for hybrid and 1-0.4911 for full jugg) and elemental is 1-0.2 for both DR[FJE]=DR[HJE]=1-0.2.

 

so the equation for taken dps looks something like:

 

DT=DPS*MA(N,DR[K],DR[E])-DA-SH-HPS = DT(DPS,N)-DA,

 

where the i can use a FJ or HJ for the DR numbers to be referenced. for FJ we have

DA[FJ]=990/12 and DA[HJ]=990/9,

where DA is damage absorbed (from blade barrier for instance), SH is self heals (from combat technique for shadows) and HPS is heals from the healer (typically assumed to be zero for time to kill calc), where all are in units of DPS.

the final step is to include the DA in the DPS function, where this is taken as 990/12 for full spec and 990/9 for hybrid spec so we get:

DT[FJ](DPS,N):=DPS*(0.9*M[FJ](N)*DR[FJK]+0.1*DR[FJE])-990/(12):

DT[FJ](3000,1800)=519

 

and

> DT[HJ](DPS,N):=DPS*(0.9*M[HJ](N)*DR[HJK]+0.1*DR[HJE])-990/(9):

> DT[HJ](3000, 1800)= 451.0

 

 

to find the amount of dps required to make mitigation increase the time to kill we say that DT*t=H(N)

where H(N) is the health pool size as a function of N, which i have also set to a linear function to make my life easier:

 

H[J](N):=-10.5*N+44911:

H[FJ](N):=-10.5*N+44911:

 

same subscript uses apply for full and hybrid juggs.

 

so DT*t=H gives the t which kills the tank, but if we solve for t, then differentiate t with respect to N and set that to zero, we can find a relation between DPS, N and HPS for when the slope goes positive with increasing N. but thats not being discussed here.

 

time to kill is just H/DT

Edited by dipstik
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I still want to know how you somehow managed to determine that 4% shield chance is worth more than 4% K/E DR (which is blatantly false to pretty much anyone that knows anything about mitigation in TOR). Even *ignoring* Blade Barrier, the hybrid should have better mitigation because that's the only difference in passive mitigation: 4% K/E DR compared to 4% shield chance.

 

I think he updated the numbers to show hybrid taking less damage, and an even bigger difference factoring blade barrier.

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I never managed that. the pre blade barrier numbers for hybrid are less (hence better). those numbers were me trying to work backwards, I have updated numbers.

 

I'm talking about from the very beginning (whereupon I'm pretty sure you were originally using time-til-death as your original metric of comparison, not post-mitigation DPS so you bounced between "high is good" to "low is good" between your 2 calculations) where you somehow thought that 4% Shield contributed more than 4% K/E DR. Even if you didn't realize that the hybrid got more out of Blade Barrier, it should have been readily apparent that, based purely off of the passive benefits, that the hybrid takes less damage. I can only guess that you simply thought that the hybrid didn't get Blade Barrier *at all*, which simply points out that it would behoove you to research the given specs a bit more before you go about drawing conclusions from them.

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as i stated, i was informed that the full spec had the benifit of the blade barrier and that was the primary component of survivability that contended wirth the hybrids superior mitigation (which i agree is obvious). that is what i set out to compare, barrier to mitigation... but that was a faulty analysis due to blade barrier being a component to boths' survivability. but i was then informed by this thread that hybrid got the same benifit at a higher frequency.

 

i provided time to kill and post mitigation dps in all of my analysis, so i dont know what you are talking about there.

 

if i had a jugg im sure i would have noticed the force scream thing. sorry for the confusion. all of the information i needed was in the skill tree on AMR.

Edited by dipstik
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i do a fair amount of research, and there is nothing in the mmo-mech forums, nor the skill tree that shows me that hybrid gets the blade barrier benifit. i do not have a jugg, so i could not draw on such experience for that knowledge.

 

Did you even try to determine what the hybrid tank spec *is*? This is the basic hybrid tank spec (the last point isn't spent because there isn't a "standard" place it's spent). If you look at it, you'll see that you actually get the Blade Barrier talent. As such, it *is* in the skill tree, so unless you just didn't know what the hybrid tank spec actually looks like, you would've actually seen it.

Edited by Kitru
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Which Tank build is best really depends on two things, 1 the type of things you are doing (Raids, PvP ect) and the player behind the mouse/keyboard, after all different play styles will suite different people.

 

I run a Guardian Tank as my Main and have tried both Hybrid and full Defense. My opinions are based not on numbers but on my own experience which I will admit is totally subjective.

 

If you're still leveling or just doing Dailys and PvP at end of game then the Hybrid is a better choice as it does get both slightly improved DR and more DPS, makes Soloing stuff much easier. But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat. In a raid the most important job a Tank has is to hold the bosses attention and keep him off the DPS and Healers and a full Defense tank has more tricks up their sleeves to help generate agro especially in the early opening phases of the fight. I don't know what the Jugg equivalents are but Guardians get both Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike from the upper half of the Defense Tree both of which generate a lot of Threat if worked into a rotation. Toth and Zorn in EC HM is a good example, when I was running Hybrid build I would keep losing agro to some of the more over-enthusiastic DPS, simply put I couldn't do damage fast enough to stay ahead on the agro table and was often faced with a choice of either allowing the boss to pound the DPS for a few seconds before the Tank Swap or use my taunts to get him back and not have them ready when the bosses jumped, you know you have an agro issue when even a Guarded DPS pulls agro twice during the first 10% of a boss fight.

 

After going full Defense, which tbh I did not like as much at first, I had almost no issues with hold threat, even with the same overly active DPS players, once I'd landed the first hit I could hold him no matter what the DPS threw at him. Simply open with Saber Throw, Force Leap, Hilt Smash, Guardian Slash then hit him with Force Stasis (I know it doesn't stun him but it is also a DoT) then move the boss into position and use ranged attacks (Blade Storm and Force Push) to keep agro. Very occasionally I might lose agro but then you have the AOE taunt to get it back, I no longer need to waste both taunts before the swaps occur

 

That being said I know at least 2 Guardian Tanks in our guild who run Hybrid spec and have few problems with agro, as I said it's more about the type of player you are, find which build you are good with and stick to it. For me it was Defense for you it might be something else.

 

In Flashpoints (with the possible exception on LI HM) the two builds pretty much even out..

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Which Tank build is best really depends on two things, 1 the type of things you are doing (Raids, PvP ect) and the player behind the mouse/keyboard, after all different play styles will suite different people.

 

I run a Guardian Tank as my Main and have tried both Hybrid and full Defense. My opinions are based not on numbers but on my own experience which I will admit is totally subjective.

 

If you're still leveling or just doing Dailys and PvP at end of game then the Hybrid is a better choice as it does get both slightly improved DR and more DPS, makes Soloing stuff much easier. But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat. In a raid the most important job a Tank has is to hold the bosses attention and keep him off the DPS and Healers and a full Defense tank has more tricks up their sleeves to help generate agro especially in the early opening phases of the fight. I don't know what the Jugg equivalents are but Guardians get both Guardian Slash and Hilt Strike from the upper half of the Defense Tree both of which generate a lot of Threat if worked into a rotation. Toth and Zorn in EC HM is a good example, when I was running Hybrid build I would keep losing agro to some of the more over-enthusiastic DPS, simply put I couldn't do damage fast enough to stay ahead on the agro table and was often faced with a choice of either allowing the boss to pound the DPS for a few seconds before the Tank Swap or use my taunts to get him back and not have them ready when the bosses jumped, you know you have an agro issue when even a Guarded DPS pulls agro twice during the first 10% of a boss fight.

 

After going full Defense, which tbh I did not like as much at first, I had almost no issues with hold threat, even with the same overly active DPS players, once I'd landed the first hit I could hold him no matter what the DPS threw at him. Simply open with Saber Throw, Force Leap, Hilt Smash, Guardian Slash then hit him with Force Stasis (I know it doesn't stun him but it is also a DoT) then move the boss into position and use ranged attacks (Blade Storm and Force Push) to keep agro. Very occasionally I might lose agro but then you have the AOE taunt to get it back, I no longer need to waste both taunts before the swaps occur

 

That being said I know at least 2 Guardian Tanks in our guild who run Hybrid spec and have few problems with agro, as I said it's more about the type of player you are, find which build you are good with and stick to it. For me it was Defense for you it might be something else.

 

In Flashpoints (with the possible exception on LI HM) the two builds pretty much even out..

 

From what you've said in your post, I think your problem is poor Focus management, which is going to gimp you at the start of a fight with the Hybrid build. With Guardian Slash more or less being equal to Overhead Slash, Hilt Strike only equaling the threat of a Sweep or Blade Storm (not to mention only useable once at the start of a fight), and Blade Storm and Overhead Slash both coming off cooldown quicker at the start than Guardian Slash and Blade Storm in a Defense build, the issue is likely that you're not understanding how to properly front load your burst threat with the hybrid, because if you do, the hybrid will actually beat full Defense in burst threat over a 30 second or so period (which is the most important part of the fight for tank threat generated by attacks rather than taunts).

 

Just based on what you wrote, I can tell you're inefficient with your usage of attacks, not using Sweep in your first 5 attacks makes no sense considering it puts on an important debuff and it is your best threat attack after Guardian Slash (1.3 threat modifier placed on Sweep compared to 1.5 on Guardian Slash, and it does considerably more damage than Hilt Strike).

 

On top of this, once you actually have the boss, the most important thing for a tank in operations is mitigation, and the hybrid wins out here.

Edited by wadecounty
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But if your trying to run Tank in Operations then the Full Defense Build, simple reason, Threat.

 

That's pretty much wrong. It's been proven time and time again that the hybrid manages better ST threat than the full Def spec does when played properly. The 2 "high threat" attacks that full Defense don't really contribute as much as you're suggesting they do, mainly because they've got comparatively poor damage and longer CDs. You don't *need* the high threat modifier when you're just dealing more damage outright, more than enough to compensate for not having a high threat modifier on 5 attacks per minute.

Edited by Kitru
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Did you even try to determine what the hybrid tank spec *is*? This is the basic hybrid tank spec (the last point isn't spent because there isn't a "standard" place it's spent). If you look at it, you'll see that you actually get the Blade Barrier talent. As such, it *is* in the skill tree, so unless you just didn't know what the hybrid tank spec actually looks like, you would've actually seen it.

 

Not always, I run 17/23/1 with the powertech set bonus on my jugg. no sonic barrier at all. works great :)

 

edit: I will take sonic barrier if im pugging with crappy healers. I usually try to increase dps / threat.

Edited by vertigo_
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when they changed 4% + amour to 4% reduction of all damage hybrid spec became over powered

you do more tps in hybrid in bis due to strth upgrade + take around 3% less damage in total witch is quite huge espeshaly with a fully mitagated gard tank , our mitigation + cd's is insane , and in fights espeshaly long fights u can get your self so far ahead on threat , that u are able to use focus defence (agro drop every time you get hit , witch gives u an extra 15 % ( however if u put a taunt up 4 seconds in to it it mitgates the last 6 seconds of that cd , or if your on a fight like tanks , where you will very rarly have to taunt , u can use both taunts and mitgate the hole , reduce threat timmer , and 15% total damage reduction just makes u sooooooooo over powered !!! this can be used on many fights trust me i have used it with no adverse affects you just have to get used to when to use it not to lose agro , if you are woried about threat do not use , + do not use as start i also recomending all jug and gard tanks to always be paired with a shadow !!!! makes it easyer they do the tps u do mitigation.

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The only thing, from a mitigation standpoint, that Full defense has over the hybrid is 4% shield chance.

 

Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.

Edit: and apparently I didn't see the "has over the hybrid" part...in which case full defense has nothing there, since 4% shield is inferior to 4% hard DR due to absorb and shield bypassing K/E attacks.

 

(1.3 threat modifier placed on Sweep compared to 1.5 on Guardian Slash, and it does considerably more damage than Hilt Strike)

 

Only on paper. In practice, Guardian Slash only gets x1.3 for a total of x2.6 with Soresu and Sweep and Cyclonic Slash get x1.15 for a total of x2.3 with stance bonus.

Edited by WhiteKing
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Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.

 

Only on paper. In practice, Guardian Slash only gets x1.3 for a total of x2.6 with Soresu and Sweep and Cyclonic Slash get x1.15 for a total of x2.3 with stance bonus.

 

4% internal and 4% sheild do not = 4% total damage reduction it means you get

 

4% off the internal damage that u would spec in 2 with the 4% +

4% sheild does not = 4% damage mitigation it gives you

 

4% all damage resitance = all damage = internal and external damage !!!!!!!

witch leads on for me to give a quck demo on what this means

 

ok say you have deminstartion first full defence spec benfits (does not quite work like this but its laymens terms demo

 

ok you get hit 100 times each hit = 1000 damage , and you have 50% sheild ashumeing you 40% absorb , and 30% defence 16 man gear+ the 4% bonus meaning

we will take it litraly (this is not true) , but is just an exapination

 

you get hit 54 times , mitgate 40% on each of them taking reduced damage

takeing defence out of equation , and no blade barrior ever or amour, i will go in to them latter !!! leaveing

 

leves 54000 damage left minus the 40% mitigatio so 54000 - 21600 = 32,000

 

and 46 hits with no mitigation .........ok that is 46000 damage unmitigated damage + 32,000 the mitigated damage = 78400 damage hope you have all followed this ....

 

now lets look at 4% total damage reduction instead ....

 

thats down to 50% sheild and 40% absorb

 

ok , that means 50% get mitigation , so lets do that that = 20,000 mitigation , leaveing 30,000 damage on you but were not done , you then still need to take the 4% damage of that !!!! thats another 1,200 damage of this , takeing total damage mitagated to so you mitigate 28,800 (does not quite work like this damage is actully mitgated erler so more damage is taken off just this easyest way to exaplain it to people who dont understand)

 

then lets look at the other 50,000 damage witch is also mittigated by the 4% 50,000 witch = 2000 that means 48,000 damage so it is 48,000 + 28,8000= 76,800

 

alone using full defence spec = 78400 damage

wile dual spec = = 76,800 damage <-- this is actully lower , you are ment to take the damage off as it hits so the it would actully all be with a lower numver so for every 100 damage you would only get 96 , damage not includeing any mittigation , witch is = to more mitigation ,would reduce total damage down b 4% witch means it would be 4000 damage mitigated not 3,2000 witch would mean the real damage you would take would 76,000 but i realy cant be arsted to go though why that is (its how bioware actully do the mitgation , but people will get confused , where do u get those numbers , from so i just showed 4% off all damage , splitting the damage when im not wrighting an essey for uni i wil ldo the full maths trust me hybride makes u some think like 2-3% less damage then defence spec , + it does as much tps if not slightly more :p and is great for fights like kethis and i did not even mention the 15% extra damage you get rid of if you know how to manage your threat , and tanking ...... any questions ???

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Not always, I run 17/23/1 with the powertech set bonus on my jugg. no sonic barrier at all. works great :)

 

edit: I will take sonic barrier if im pugging with crappy healers. I usually try to increase dps / threat.

 

plz say you are pvp'er if you are pve'r you are losing so much damage reduction from blade barrior !!!!! i have played both specs trust me the description above is rough calculations not examplain all mitgations its actully alot more complicated then above but to be honest i dont have time atm to explain it all i just wanted to put it in the most basic form so people understand !!!!

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Full Defense can get Inner Peace that provides 4% internal/elemental resistance.

 

The hybrid gets Commanding Awe, which provides 4% DR to both K/E and I/E. Both specs get 4% additional I/E DR. The only difference in their survivability is that the hybrid gets 4% higher K/E DR and 9 sec Blade Storm whereas full Defense gets 4% higher Shield Chance.

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