JediMasterSLC Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 See the thread in the sentinel forums. This is just to get the attention of those of you who only check your class's forum but not your mirror class's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheronFett Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Top 3 least viable PvP specs: 1) Arsenal Mercenary 2) Lethality Operative/Sniper 3) Annihilation Marauder The reason is very simple, and everyone already knows the answer. Sustained damage, and especially DoT damage, are inferior to front-loaded burst damage. Annihilation is perfectly fine for the Marauder who likes to PUG and needs additional survivability or for anyone just running normal PvP. RWZ are all about focus fire and burning through targets quickly. The burst of Rage or Carnage are much more desirable, and Carnage also has roots and improved Predation that are more of a benefit to the team than small group heals. Annihilation is fine as-is. It performs very well in all aspects of the game, except RWZ, and there's no need to tweak it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elitegerike Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Top 3 least viable PvP specs: 1) Arsenal Mercenary 2) Lethality Operative/Sniper 3) Annihilation Marauder The reason is very simple, and everyone already knows the answer. Sustained damage, and especially DoT damage, are inferior to front-loaded burst damage. Annihilation is perfectly fine for the Marauder who likes to PUG and needs additional survivability or for anyone just running normal PvP. RWZ are all about focus fire and burning through targets quickly. The burst of Rage or Carnage are much more desirable, and Carnage also has roots and improved Predation that are more of a benefit to the team than small group heals. Annihilation is fine as-is. It performs very well in all aspects of the game, except RWZ, and there's no need to tweak it. this. u can even close the topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Top 3 least viable PvP specs: 1) Arsenal Mercenary 2) Lethality Operative/Sniper 3) Annihilation Marauder The reason is very simple, and everyone already knows the answer. Sustained damage, and especially DoT damage, are inferior to front-loaded burst damage. Annihilation is perfectly fine for the Marauder who likes to PUG and needs additional survivability or for anyone just running normal PvP. RWZ are all about focus fire and burning through targets quickly. The burst of Rage or Carnage are much more desirable, and Carnage also has roots and improved Predation that are more of a benefit to the team than small group heals. Annihilation is fine as-is. It performs very well in all aspects of the game, except RWZ, and there's no need to tweak it. I agree with everything until the last paragraph. You think it's ok that a spec is unviable in competitive PvP? Saying "this is the pug skill tree and this is the RWZ skill tree" is pretty lame don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaemmernZeit Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think the only place an annihilation marauder is viable in rwzs is sitting on the off node. And I agree with what the fett said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusFTW Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) I agree with everything until the last paragraph. You think it's ok that a spec is unviable in competitive PvP? Saying "this is the pug skill tree and this is the RWZ skill tree" is pretty lame don't you think? Food for thought, but the rage tree was buffed because people where complaining about its lack of pve dps and wanted to make the spec viable for single target dps so it wouldn't just be a "pvp tree" . Now look where that got us.. Anything they could do to give the "dot" tree more burst would make it OP... Edited November 20, 2012 by AngusFTW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoninKetch Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Hmm well if I was to make suggestions would have to be one of the following: Making our bleeds uncleansable (if there is such a word) ? at least our dps isn't rendered useless. OR Make our next Force Scream/Annihilate an auto crit if target is under the bleed effects of rupture? OR Increase the damage of our next Annihilate by 3% per bleed stack the target has? While reading the OP what i was thinking was summed up pretty well by Fett and Bleez… in RWZ you need to kill stuff now… not once you have Berserk up so that your bleeds start to Auto Crit or once you have 3 stacks of Annihilate up so you can spam it. And adding more burst to a DoT tree = OP I commented about the Annihilation heals nerf last week and in one reply was the word “adapt” that pretty much summed it all up for me So… I respecced to Carnage and having a Blast with it!! Nerfs come and go it’s not the first one and won’t be the last one. On a side note does anyone know the reason for why Watchman/Annihilation heals were nerffed? I personally thought the Tree was perfectly balanced. Edited November 20, 2012 by RoninKetch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 I think the only place an annihilation marauder is viable in rwzs is sitting on the off node. And I agree with what the fett said. You need a stealth class on the off node, preferably a shadow tank, who can hold off multiple people for a long time while help comes. If you stick a watchman on your off node you're going to get opened up on by a scrapper scoundrel or shadow, and if they are good will they beat a watchman 1v1, especially with the recent nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Anything they could do to give the "dot" tree more burst would make it OP... Not necessarily. That's what the thread in the sentinel forums is for discussing: ideas on how to make watchman viable in ranked without making it OP in non-ranked and PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
verfallen Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) You cannot make every single tree a "best" pvp tree. So long has a class got a viable more pvp oriented possibility, we got something. Altough with the self-heals nerf, forced to admit they lessened the 1vs1 PvP superiority the spec had. Imo, some classes like the dps sorc needs loving first. Edited November 21, 2012 by verfallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 You cannot make every single tree a "best" pvp tree. So long has a class got a viable more pvp oriented possibility, we got something. Altough with the self-heals nerf, forced to admit they lessened the 1vs1 PvP superiority the spec had. Imo, some classes like the dps sorc needs loving first. I'm not complaining because all the specs aren't perfectly balanced. I'm just concerned that BW is designating some of their specs to be better suited to pve and others to pvp, and orienting their buffs/nerfs around pve at the cost of pvp balance. As long as BW is at least *trying* to give all specs a place in competitive pvp, I'm happy. And I'll agree that watchman sents aren't at the top of the list of specs that need pvp oriented buffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthmorbous Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 lol i play Anni and do way more damage, cause my damage stays on the target; and a force scream followed by annihilation you have 6k-7k+ in what? 1.5 sec? + healing. PvP i focus on the healers ; the 20% healing debuff + all those interrupts from force charge+ the immobilize; i burn healers 1 by 1 so fast...i find you need a carnage in the team and you need a annihilation in the team. There are so many carnage right now that annimara killing all the heals from the other team is priceless. imho, you need at least one in RWZ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) lol i play Anni and do way more damage, cause my damage stays on the target; and a force scream followed by annihilation you have 6k-7k+ in what? 1.5 sec? + healing. PvP i focus on the healers ; the 20% healing debuff + all those interrupts from force charge+ the immobilize; i burn healers 1 by 1 so fast...i find you need a carnage in the team and you need a annihilation in the team. There are so many carnage right now that annimara killing all the heals from the other team is priceless. imho, you need at least one in RWZ. Do you play ranked warzones? I mean competitive ones, not teams pugged from gen chat. Also, you should rarely use blade storm/force scream as watchman/anni since it costs 4 focus/rage and doesn't benefit from Juyo stacks. I still use it sometimes if I have lots of focus and unable to get in melee range for that GCD. If you're able to kill healers by yourself like you claim then the op team is terrible. Also, what do you mean by "way more damage"? Way more damage than what? Carnage? You might be able to get higher numbers on the scoreboard but you can't burst/kill a target like you can in combat/carnage. Edited November 27, 2012 by JediMasterSLC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 (edited) i play Anni and do way more damage, cause my damage stays on the target; and a force scream followed by annihilation you have 6k-7k+ in what? 1.5 sec? + healing. PvP i focus on the healers ; the 20% healing debuff + all those interrupts from force charge+ the immobilize; i burn healers 1 by 1 so fast...i find you need a carnage in the team and you need a annihilation in the team. There are so many carnage right now that annimara killing all the heals from the other team is priceless. imho, you need at least one in RWZ. Don't use Force Scream often when I roll Anni on my Marauder. But the burst with anything +Annihilate is no joke. However, in RWZs most of our bleeds would probably be cleansed. The recent 1.5 nerf to Anni Healing doesn't help the argument for viability either. Anni is great for NWZs when you aren't rolling with a premade or small scale fights like 1v1s or 2v1s. It's a bit sad because Anni is my favorite Mara spec, but it's true. Edited November 27, 2012 by DarthOvertone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted November 27, 2012 Author Share Posted November 27, 2012 It's a bit sad because Anni is my favorite Mara spec, but it's true. Mine too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaemmernZeit Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 (edited) It's a bit sad because Anni is my favorite Mara spec, but it's true. Same here. I find that Anni has a nice flow to it whereas the other two specs you are waiting for that perfect moment to unleash. And JediMasterSLC, I agree, stealth needs to be on the off node, but if there isn't a stealther, the self heals should let you live a little longer. But what are you doing in a rated match without at least one stealther??? So I guess my point is moot. Edited November 28, 2012 by HaemmernZeit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aluvi Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 I pretty much agree with what others have said.. being a DOT class it just isn't as viable, however, there are a few things that would make it at least viable for solo queuing and non rateds, and MAYBE even viable in rateds: Remove the ability to cleanse the dots. They are vital for the spec, cleansing them completely nullifys it. Or, give them a talent that punishes people for removing the dots, say the cleansing person gets stunned + damaged. Remove the "build up" on annihilator buff. Annihilation should be baseline 7 second cooldown. The rage cost on it is ridiculously high for the amount of damage it puts out, I don't see how a lower cooldown would hurt anything. Revert the nerf to annihilation healing. This nerf was almost as unnecessary as the changes to rage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Annihilation is fine... No need to make it viable for rwz's... Be happy we have 2 good specs for rwz's and 3 good specs for normal war zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 Annihilation is fine... No need to make it viable for rwz's... Be happy we have 2 good specs for rwz's and 3 good specs for normal war zones. I get your point, but I still wish I could play my (and a lot of other people's) favorite spec at the competitive level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scathe Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I pretty much agree with what others have said.. being a DOT class it just isn't as viable, however, there are a few things that would make it at least viable for solo queuing and non rateds, and MAYBE even viable in rateds: Remove the ability to cleanse the dots. They are vital for the spec, cleansing them completely nullifys it. Or, give them a talent that punishes people for removing the dots, say the cleansing person gets stunned + damaged. Remove the "build up" on annihilator buff. Annihilation should be baseline 7 second cooldown. The rage cost on it is ridiculously high for the amount of damage it puts out, I don't see how a lower cooldown would hurt anything. Revert the nerf to annihilation healing. This nerf was almost as unnecessary as the changes to rage. I agree with this, so much. I actually figured that after the 1.5 patch and the nerf to Annhilate that people would be more angry that Annihilation got the nerf bat swung at it when it wasn't needed instead of Rage. Speaking as a Mara that leveled 10-50 as Annihilation, the healing reduction lowers survivability not only in pvp but in pve as well. Annihilation is, in my opinion, the best spec to level in as a Mara due to it's survivability due to it's self healing. I also agree with the removing of the build up on Annihilator. It's a 5 rage cost ability that deals our highest amount of damage, and the build up buff isn't really needed at all. Especially since rotations may not allow it to be used multiple times to get 3 stacks. From most of the videos I watched the rotation seems to be Annihilation once, then spam VS until out of rage/target is dead/ravage is up. A flat seven second cooldown wouldn't hurt the ability at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted December 3, 2012 Author Share Posted December 3, 2012 I pretty much agree with what others have said.. being a DOT class it just isn't as viable, however, there are a few things that would make it at least viable for solo queuing and non rateds, and MAYBE even viable in rateds: Remove the ability to cleanse the dots. They are vital for the spec, cleansing them completely nullifys it. Or, give them a talent that punishes people for removing the dots, say the cleansing person gets stunned + damaged. Remove the "build up" on annihilator buff. Annihilation should be baseline 7 second cooldown. The rage cost on it is ridiculously high for the amount of damage it puts out, I don't see how a lower cooldown would hurt anything. Revert the nerf to annihilation healing. This nerf was almost as unnecessary as the changes to rage. The nerf was for PvE concerns, I doubt they will ever revert it Cleansing our dots is an issue but the only way to fairly address this I think is to simply make the dot(s) have a chance to reject cleansing or reapply after cleansing. I laughed when I saw "the cleansing person gets stunned" lol. The annhilate/merc slash baseline cooldown seems like a decent idea but it would greatly simplify the spec, which I don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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