These changes are motivated by my experience in solo ranked queing purely as a Vigilance Guardian and Vengeance Juggernaut. It is my opinion that the DPS of the specialization is completely fine, but the survivability is so lacking that the only viable way to play ranked as a Juggernaut is to be very good at DCD timing and kiting, in other words surviving until your team gets a pick and you have the advantage. As such, any perceived DPS deficiency, IMHO, is purely due to bugs / annoying phenomena (Gather Strength/Pooled Hatred being consumed by DoTs) or survivability deficiency preventing adequate damage.

I also have issues with all the Guardian specs being dependent on a utility for DPS, and the Freezing Force utility is so wickedly powerful that I'm not sure it should be in the game. However any removal / altering of it must be replaced with a comparable rotational ability for the two DPS specializations, as their rotations currently rely on Freezing Force to function in both PvP and PvE

GUARDIANS

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

Focused Defense[

* Focused Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Commanding Awe now applies to Focused Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Focused Defense is activated, similar to Enure.

*Accuracy over 100% is applied to Focused Defense as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

Gather Strength

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Gather Strength stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Gather Strength also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Gather Strength is used.

*Gather Strength now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Whirling Blow, Dispatch, Guardian Slash, Concentrated Strike, Overhead Slash

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Gather Strength, and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

JUGGERNAUTS

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

Enraged Defense

*Enraged Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Deafening Defense now applies to Enraged Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Enraged Defense is activated, similar to Endure Pain.

*Accuracy over 100% as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

Pooled Hatred

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Pooled Hatred stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Pooled Hatred also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Pooled Hatred is used.

*Pooled Hatred now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Hew, Vicious Throw, Crushing Blow, Furious Strike, and Impale

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Pooled Hatred by only making it apply to two abilities for each specialization and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

Hey Rydarus, Skyesora here. A few thoughts:

1. Completely agree on Saber Reflect; it's pretty dumb that the Merc reflect is actually a better cooldown than the original one that they copied. This would make it much more dangerous for anyone to attack us during SR and basically force the use of AoEs, stuns, or kiting. Perhaps changing it to "all direct single-target damage" is reflected would work.

2. Not sure I agree on accuracy affecting Focused/Enraged Defense. I think I'd add like a 10-15% DR to it and increase the base heal so it's a lot harder for people to just hit through it. Right now, it's pretty useless against burst specs because the max it heals for is about 15k (and that's on a crit). Perhaps making it scale with Mastery as well as Power would address how weak it is at times?

3. Gather Strength/Pooled Hatred in this manner would allow for some absolutely enormous crits to be lined up. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but something like a 50k hit is certainly possible (I've achieved slightly over 41k; higher is definitely possible - http://imgur.com/a/t4onZ). To be honest I'm not sure why stuns don't give stacks of it already. The DR is interesting but might be a bit OP.

Some things I'd add:

1. Grant Focus/Rage the same threat drop AoE DR that Vigilance/Vengeance has. I don't really understand the logic behind it not being granted to both, and it'd really help when you're caught in the middle of a scrum.

2. Allow Guardian Leap/Intercede to be used while stunned and increase its cooldown to 45 seconds/1 minute. Seriously, we need a hard escape.

These changes are motivated by my experience in solo ranked queing purely as a Vigilance Guardian and Vengeance Juggernaut. It is my opinion that the DPS of the specialization is completely fine, but the survivability is so lacking that the only viable way to play ranked as a Juggernaut is to be very good at DCD timing and kiting, in other words surviving until your team gets a pick and you have the advantage. As such, any perceived DPS deficiency, IMHO, is purely due to bugs / annoying phenomena (Gather Strength/Pooled Hatred being consumed by DoTs) or survivability deficiency preventing adequate damage.

 

I also have issues with all the Guardian specs being dependent on a utility for DPS, and the Freezing Force utility is so wickedly powerful that I'm not sure it should be in the game. However any removal / altering of it must be replaced with a comparable rotational ability for the two DPS specializations, as their rotations currently rely on Freezing Force to function in both PvP and PvE

 

GUARDIANS

 

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

 

Focused Defense[

* Focused Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Commanding Awe now applies to Focused Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Focused Defense is activated, similar to Enure.

*Accuracy over 100% is applied to Focused Defense as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

 

Gather Strength

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Gather Strength stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Gather Strength also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Gather Strength is used.

*Gather Strength now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Whirling Blow, Dispatch, Guardian Slash, Concentrated Strike, Overhead Slash

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Gather Strength, and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

 

JUGGERNAUTS

 

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

 

Enraged Defense

*Enraged Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Deafening Defense now applies to Enraged Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Enraged Defense is activated, similar to Endure Pain.

*Accuracy over 100% as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

 

Pooled Hatred

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Pooled Hatred stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Pooled Hatred also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Pooled Hatred is used.

*Pooled Hatred now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Hew, Vicious Throw, Crushing Blow, Furious Strike, and Impale

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Pooled Hatred by only making it apply to two abilities for each specialization and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

One of the big challanges for class balancing as well have seen is how things done to address issues in one mode of play effect other modes of play where such issues may not exist or exist to the degree the do in the other mode of play.

I was just wondering what your thoughts on that may be. Certainly Juggs are facing issues in ranked that some of these proposals seek to address, but would you not agree that these issues are greatly reduced in regs pvp and don't effect PVE in any concerning amount?

The issues of the experience Juggs have in Ranked I Often witnessed other postulate that they would be served addressing them by an anti-focus ability [i have previously suggest perhaps extending Force Camoflage to Juggs as well, there is precident for both Marauders and Juggs sharing some abilities as they are both of the same base class [i.e. Ravage, Saberward, etc.], and some mobility improvement possibly.

Juggs seem to have greater survivability in regs, and PVE, such concerns are mitigated in no small measure due to the gaurentees presense of healers and balanced groups.

Would some of these proposals perhaps be a bit too strong when experienced in regs PVP and PVE, do you think?

A reflect on melee attacks would leave other Melee in a fairly compromsing position much like when faced by Mercs [although obviously on a lesser scale] and would result in another instance where melee would essentiallly have to just "stand there and take it" not being able to attack back while the opponent is free to unload on them. As you can't really break LOS on melee attacks, there may be some concerns over it's effect.

People are generally not in favor of the DCDs of mercs, and as class balance is hurting due in some part to the overtuned DCDs mercs possess, giving another class similar themed DCD seems someone counter-productive to class balance. Adding a great deal more additional DR to the mix to the degrees suggested, may make DPS Juggs quite tanky. Although, given they are sort of themed in that manner, if any class could give cause for a more tanky sort, I supposed Juggs would be it. It is however, a considerable amount of added DR. If these abilities could overlap, some proposals would lead to 40%+ DR values on top of existing ones. It would seem at these times that it would cut incoming damage in the 50% margin.

Gearing for optimal DPS output really shouldn't take survivability into account, hence the glass cannon model. I do agree with the notion that Juggs have a greater claim to a more tankier sort, but this seems to attempt to turn a DPS jugg a different sort of skank tank.

At any rate, essentially, I am interested in your thoughts on how your proposals would effect both reg PVP and PVE. I'm sure you would agree that Juggs don't face the same sorts of issues in these other modes of play as they do in Ranked to that degree. Such considerations I think are important as we must be wary about unintended effects on other modes of play that aren't experiencing the same set of circumstances.

The issue with reflects isn't so much the duration or having to change strategy temporarily while it's effects are active, as it is that it is difficult to time a ceasing of attacks against someone with a reflect as to avoid initially not attacking them the second they put the reflect up, and generally some attack or attacks will hit the reflect before the player realizes the reflect is up and cease attacking given the chaotic nature of PVP. One or two attacks usually land against a reflect and that can prove difficult to avoid at times initially.

Juggs are definitely facing some issues in ranked, I think that's pretty undeniable, but they aren't in the same postion in regs and therein lies some cause for concern. I'd be interested in your thoughts on that.

Making Force Camoflage, and perhaps even perdation shared by the base class might be worthy of consideration as well.

I'm a big proponent of NOT copying other classes' abilities for class identity reasons, although I understand the concern.

Juggernauts might be strong in regs, but I'd argue that any class can be strong in regs when pocketed the entire way. I'd also argue that we already have an anti focus ability in Saber Reflect, it just needs a bit of a buff. I doubt players in regs will even notice a difference, except maybe more players will play the class, possibly increasing the average skill of the players playing the class, but ultimately nothing more.

IMHO, juggernaut problem is not solely anti focus, it's that they take more damage over time, making them harder to heal., so even though we have cooldowns to withstand initial focus, we are one of the easiest DPS to just KEEP FOCUSING for long periods of time due to low passive defenses. We need defenses that help us stay alive long enough to deal our damage, and mechanics to punish us being focused. These changes are designed to nullify damage in such a way that a Juggernaut is MORE dangerous when focused than not.

As for PvE, honestly as a PvER no one will notice a survivability change, either way. ED isn't even used close to CD in PvE.

These changes are motivated by my experience in solo ranked queing purely as a Vigilance Guardian and Vengeance Juggernaut. It is my opinion that the DPS of the specialization is completely fine, but the survivability is so lacking that the only viable way to play ranked as a Juggernaut is to be very good at DCD timing and kiting, in other words surviving until your team gets a pick and you have the advantage. As such, any perceived DPS deficiency, IMHO, is purely due to bugs / annoying phenomena (Gather Strength/Pooled Hatred being consumed by DoTs) or survivability deficiency preventing adequate damage.

 

I also have issues with all the Guardian specs being dependent on a utility for DPS, and the Freezing Force utility is so wickedly powerful that I'm not sure it should be in the game. However any removal / altering of it must be replaced with a comparable rotational ability for the two DPS specializations, as their rotations currently rely on Freezing Force to function in both PvP and PvE

 

GUARDIANS

 

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

 

Focused Defense[

* Focused Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Commanding Awe now applies to Focused Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Focused Defense is activated, similar to Enure.

*Accuracy over 100% is applied to Focused Defense as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

 

Gather Strength

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Gather Strength stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Gather Strength also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Gather Strength is used.

*Gather Strength now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Whirling Blow, Dispatch, Guardian Slash, Concentrated Strike, Overhead Slash

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Gather Strength, and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

 

JUGGERNAUTS

 

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

 

Enraged Defense

*Enraged Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Deafening Defense now applies to Enraged Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Enraged Defense is activated, similar to Endure Pain.

*Accuracy over 100% as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

 

Pooled Hatred

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Pooled Hatred stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Pooled Hatred also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Pooled Hatred is used.

*Pooled Hatred now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Hew, Vicious Throw, Crushing Blow, Furious Strike, and Impale

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Pooled Hatred by only making it apply to two abilities for each specialization and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

I'm on board. Hire this man Bioware.

Well, a lot of the things said in this thread don't make too much sense in my opinion but, I reckon I might just as well throw in my 2 cents on the things that do make sense.

Enraged Defense/Focused Defense

The scaling on this ability is not good. When it was originally introduced, it worked as a heal-to-almost-full but, now at level 70, it's barely a heal-to-half. This ability should either grant more stacks, heal for a higher amount, or both.

Saber Reflect

Juggernaut reflect has never been an issue and doesn't need to change. The issue lies with reflect on other classes but, discussing nerfing those has no place on a jugg thread.

Pooled Hatred/Gather Strength

As said above, yeah, this should probably also build a stack off stuns.

Again as said above, restricting it's effect to core abilities for each spec (Raging/Focused Burst, Impale/Overhead Slash, Crushing Blow/Guardian Slash) does makes sense.

Passive Defensives

Juggernauts and guardians aren't really known for passive defensive buffs, especially not stacking ones (except for tanks) but, they wouldn't be entirely unwelcome. Only thing to keep in mind is that they would have to be connected to the DPS specs, not neutral abilities or utilities, else you risk buffing jugg/guard tanks into the heavens for PvE.

Escapes

Besides adding something like Heroic Leap (see WoW warriors), increasing the range of Mad Dash/Blade Blitz to 30m and perhaps making it purge stunning effects could function very well, especially as part of an utility.

Stealth

Stealth on juggernauts is like adding reflect to operatives, makes no sense and will never happ... oh.

Stealth

Stealth on juggernauts is like adding reflect to operatives, makes no sense and will never happ... oh.

Lol.

Good points though.

I don't agree with reflect but your other points make sense, especially the pooled hatred.

Rather, on reflect it could last longer (5 seconds)

I'm a big proponent of NOT copying other classes' abilities for class identity reasons, although I understand the concern.

 

Normally I'd agree with that. In this case however, as they share the same base class and there is already a precedent for Juggs and Maras sharing some same abilities, I don't feel it would be too much of a stretch or lack credibility. If it helps Juggs in needed areas, we're both Sith Warriors, both classes share the same background, stories, and even history, having had the same master [baras], I think the sharing would be harmless enough. The idea is to get the classes the things they need to keep them relatively on par [DPS amounts will vary of course].

To be very honest, while I recognize the use for Force Camoflage its mostly as an escape, because as a DCD for in-combat use, it's fairly useless. You cannot be fighting and gain it's effects so really, it's not something you will use for mitigating damage in combat [although you could use it to mitigate enviornment damage], If you have Force Camoflage in effect and you attack or are hit with an AOE Force Camoflage ceases early and all benefits are lost so, its main value is as an escape/anti-focus. It's length however is not so great [4 seconds] and than you reappear no mattter what your circumstances. Often times you get caught because 4 seconds often is enough time to get far enough away that if you don't have something to hide behind, your enemies will just see you reappear, and it's not like you can use the time during Force Camoflage to heal, you do not leave 'combat mode' like in the case of Force Cloak.

It would be helpful to Juggs much like it is for Maras an escape and a temporary anti-focus.

If mobility needs address for Juggs as well, Perdation would do the trick. Again, siting the same reasons for it being shared between the ACs as previously stated. It's also possible, if felt necessary, for the "jugg version" to simply have it only able to effect the jugg and not have the effect shared group wide.

If it help's Juggs in Ranked, than all the better. They are not overbaring abilities and they don't allow you to do more damage or anything, and as an added benefit they are already playtested! =p

Just something to consider is all.

 

Stealth

Stealth on juggernauts is like adding reflect to operatives, makes no sense and will never happ... oh.

Personally, I don't think it makes sense for Marauders either. I think it's silly and I would prefer it if they took the stealth aspect away and redesigned it so as to fufill the same needs and purpose but without the stealth aspect. Even if it was simply redefined as effecting the perception of those effected so as to cause them to "ignore" the user for the same duration, so you wouldn't actually be turning invisible. I don't think it's appropriate for Marauders or Juggs, but, it is what it is at the moment.

Well, a lot of the things said in this thread don't make too much sense in my opinion but, I reckon I might just as well throw in my 2 cents on the things that do make sense.

 

Enraged Defense/Focused Defense

The scaling on this ability is not good. When it was originally introduced, it worked as a heal-to-almost-full but, now at level 70, it's barely a heal-to-half. This ability should either grant more stacks, heal for a higher amount, or both.

 

Saber Reflect

Juggernaut reflect has never been an issue and doesn't need to change. The issue lies with reflect on other classes but, discussing nerfing those has no place on a jugg thread.

 

Pooled Hatred/Gather Strength

As said above, yeah, this should probably also build a stack off stuns.

Again as said above, restricting it's effect to core abilities for each spec (Raging/Focused Burst, Impale/Overhead Slash, Crushing Blow/Guardian Slash) does makes sense.

 

Passive Defensives

Juggernauts and guardians aren't really known for passive defensive buffs, especially not stacking ones (except for tanks) but, they wouldn't be entirely unwelcome. Only thing to keep in mind is that they would have to be connected to the DPS specs, not neutral abilities or utilities, else you risk buffing jugg/guard tanks into the heavens for PvE.

 

Escapes

Besides adding something like Heroic Leap (see WoW warriors), increasing the range of Mad Dash/Blade Blitz to 30m and perhaps making it purge stunning effects could function very well, especially as part of an utility.

 

Stealth

Stealth on juggernauts is like adding reflect to operatives, makes no sense and will never happ... oh.

Gather Strength doesn't really affect tanks, at least in PvE, but noted. If necessary we could make it restricted to dps specs, the DR increase on GS.

I think a key issue with FD is the scaling, but also because it's an amazing 1v1 DCD, but doesn't scale well to 4v1. Most other cooldowns protect you the same amount regardless of situation, 50% mitigation will ALWAYS BE 50% mitigation of damage intake. My goal is to shift FD off of just healing and to incorporate some damage reduction to help preserve it's identity as a heal, but increase it's usefulness and potency against multiple opponents, reducing the asymmetricality of it.

I do like changing blade blitz, a lot actually, but honestly, I like buffing reflect more due to the fact that I doubt they'll change the commando reflect, and burst melee breach reflect pretty hard. Letting Guardians reflect melee attacks would help a long way towards protecting against heavy focus fire and giving us a true escape.

I do like changing blade blitz, a lot actually, but honestly, I like buffing reflect more due to the fact that I doubt they'll change the commando reflect, and burst melee breach reflect pretty hard. Letting Guardians reflect melee attacks would help a long way towards protecting against heavy focus fire and giving us a true escape.

Lol I want reflect buffed just because I'm still pissy that mercs got my reflect... just a better version. I'm seriously bitter about the reflect situation actually, it used to be a guardian thing. Now like many classes have one.

Lol I want reflect buffed just because I'm still pissy that mercs got my reflect... just a better version. I'm seriously bitter about the reflect situation actually, it used to be a guardian thing. Now like many classes have one.

I'd agree here, that was a Jugg/Guardian thing, and each class should have some defining unique ability to itself. Every class should have it's own nitche and special aspect. Not only did mercs come along and take a reflect for themselves [them and many other classes for that matter!] they actually have a far superior reflect. If other classes are to have reflects, Jugg reflect should at least be the strongest one of the lot given their history with the ability.

My only concern for the melee attacks being reflected is it creates more issues like we are all faced with with mercs and can cause another "just having to stand there and take a beating for the duration of the reflect", like we have to with mercs. That's a whole additioanl class on the battlefield that will be causing such an effect and this make it a more widespread beating the rest of the classes have to take. I get the idea that "well mercs have it so why shouldn't we?" but I think the overriding belief is no one should have reflects of that power level, it's just a bit too compromsing. Most of the time people are not going to be able to respond quick enough when a reflect is put up as to avoid landing any blows into the reflect.

Marauders, Assassins, PTs, Operatives will all be sorrounded by more classes they cannot not attack and just have to take the beating from [between mercs and juggs] and as you pointed out it's already alot to have to deal with as is. That they are not touching Merc DCDs in 5.3, it means we are all going to be having to put up with that BS for a good while longer.

It's like the PTs who are screaming that getting TR like mercs [a second life] would be good for balancing. No, it wouldn't it would just make a whole other class with 2nd lives when not even Mercs should have it.

I'm by no means against giving Juggs whatever improvements they may legitimately need, but like in the case of the PTs wanting second lives, there are other ways to improve survivability that don't include second lives, and let's be honest here, it's not like Juggs [DPS or Skank tank] don't hit hard as hell, they do, so just having to stand thier and take the beating because you cannot afford to be hitting them, could lead a worsening of high powered DCDs into the mix. Not being able to attack people who can attack you with impunity is never good for balance and it always will create resentment.

I don't see much issue with many of the other proposals, but adding melee attacks to Juggs reflect would be cause for concern.

While I not a fan of DPS with h2fs, I do think that ED should at least get Juggs to half their health, I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Coming from the perspective of a Marauder, even a h2half seems quite nice!

I'd agree here, that was a Jugg/Guardian thing, and each class should have some defining unique ability to itself. Every class should have it's own nitche and special aspect. Not only did mercs come along and take a reflect for themselves [them and many other classes for that matter!] they actually have a far superior reflect. If other classes are to have reflects, Jugg reflect should at least be the strongest one of the lot given their history with the ability.

 

My only concern for the melee attacks being reflected is it creates more issues like we are all faced with with mercs and can cause another "just having to stand there and take a beating for the duration of the reflect", like we have to with mercs. That's a whole additioanl class on the battlefield that will be causing such an effect and this make it a more widespread beating the rest of the classes have to take. I get the idea that "well mercs have it so why shouldn't we?" but I think the overriding belief is no one should have reflects of that power level, it's just a bit too compromsing. Most of the time people are not going to be able to respond quick enough when a reflect is put up as to avoid landing any blows into the reflect.

 

Marauders, Assassins, PTs, Operatives will all be sorrounded by more classes they cannot not attack and just have to take the beating from [between mercs and juggs] and as you pointed out it's already alot to have to deal with as is. That they are not touching Merc DCDs in 5.3, it means we are all going to be having to put up with that BS for a good while longer.

 

It's like the PTs who are screaming that getting TR like mercs [a second life] would be good for balancing. No, it wouldn't it would just make a whole other class with 2nd lives when not even Mercs should have it.

 

I'm by no means against giving Juggs whatever improvements they may legitimately need, but like in the case of the PTs wanting second lives, there are other ways to improve survivability that don't include second lives, and let's be honest here, it's not like Juggs [DPS or Skank tank] don't hit hard as hell, they do, so just having to stand thier and take the beating because you cannot afford to be hitting them, could lead a worsening of high powered DCDs into the mix. Not being able to attack people who can attack you with impunity is never good for balance and it always will create resentment.

 

I don't see much issue with many of the other proposals, but adding melee attacks to Juggs reflect would be cause for concern.

 

While I not a fan of DPS with h2fs, I do think that ED should at least get Juggs to half their health, I don't think that's unreasonable at all. Coming from the perspective of a Marauder, even a h2half seems quite nice!

I see the logic, and especially considering guardian reflect is on such a short cooldown, I think that does make sense. It remains to be seen however, if the devs think that the merc DCDs need to be nerfed. While we obviously think they do, i'm not sure what they think.

I'd be game with melee reflect OR Stun DR, either one would be sufficient, in combination with the changes I outlined.

Basically this class is too squishy for the class that is supposed to be the tankiest, even in a dps spec.

Endure Pain needs to not have an ''increase maximum'' health mechanic. It's pretty outdated, compared to how much the game has changed since this ability was created.

It needs to work like a regular heal and with a shorter cooldown. Maybe even add a damage reduction for a short time.

Also something needs to be done with Enraged Defense. It does not scale well post 5.0.

Also as others have said, Reflect needs a buff, preferably a lower CD or something. Basically Juggs need to be THE class with reflect. Not just one of many. A none force user should not have a better reflect than the Jugg.

+ Ever since Mad Dash was introduced i always wondered why the hell it does such a pathetic damage. It needs to triple. This ability needs to be an aoe too, along with its other uses.

If all of the above is done Juggs may become op. But at least half need to be done.

 

JUGGERNAUTS

 

Saber Reflect

*Saber Reflect now Reflects Melee Attacks.

Mando's can do it. Why the hell can't we?

 

Enraged Defense

*Enraged Defense's cooldown is now affected by Alacrity.

*Deafening Defense now applies to Enraged Defense, granting 15% damage reduction for 15 seconds when Enraged Defense is activated, similar to Endure Pain.

*Accuracy over 100% as damage reduction, I.E. 110% accuracy = 25% damage reduction on Focused Defense. Does not apply to Tanks.

These changes are motivated by problems with the scaling of this DCD, because the stat is affected by ONLY Crit and Power, literally all other stats are wasted for PvP in terms of survivability. This IMHO is a negative aspect of the class, as gearing for optimal DPS should also not penalize your survivability compared to another person who is gearing a full DPS in suboptimal stats.

 

Pooled Hatred

* Add stuns to the list of things that add Pooled Hatred stacks. Stuns give two stacks instead of one.

* Each stack of Pooled Hatred also gives 5% damage reduction to a maximum of 25%, and this DR vanishes when Pooled Hatred is used.

*Pooled Hatred now EXCLUSIVELY works on these abilities: Hew, Vicious Throw, Crushing Blow, Furious Strike, and Impale

This change is to nullify DoT's eating Pooled Hatred by only making it apply to two abilities for each specialization and make the stacks easier to acquire. It also increases damage reduction.

Agreed with everything except the accuracy stuff. You shouldn't sacrifice your damage and stack worthless stat to gain survivability.

Also endure pain should not drop health. It's supposed to be the last resort cooldown, not a death sentence thing (hey dude, chase me, I will have 1 hp soon!).

FInally I'd make a reflect reflecting everything (except aoe) for 100% damage. Why? Well, first, people are just bashing through jugg's reflect because the damage back is very low. Mercs aren't get hit because of heal on reflect. Operative reflects 150% which kinda hurts.

Second, I see no reason the original owner of the reflect has the most garbage version of it.

Finally, it is just irritating when you pop reflect before hardstun and still lose freaking full health due to melee and special attacks hitting through reflect.

ED should be usable at any health level, have half the charges and return twice the health.

If they don't incorporate some sort of DR into ed, I see no reason to even want to pop ED at high health. As for half the stacks with double the healing. Sure it'd be nice, but it doesn't really do much to address the problem with ED. It would still remain really good in 1v1 and really meh anywhere else

If they don't incorporate some sort of DR into ed, I see no reason to even want to pop ED at high health. As for half the stacks with double the healing. Sure it'd be nice, but it doesn't really do much to address the problem with ED. It would still remain really good in 1v1 and really meh anywhere else

I'm biased no doubt. I take the Through Power utility. And since I get focused and stunlocked so often in ranked I'd love to be able to pre-emptively pop my ED. Ymmv. DR on ED would get no complaints from me, and I'm open to any variations on improved health returns from ED.

Agreed with everything except the accuracy stuff. You shouldn't sacrifice your damage and stack worthless stat to gain survivability.

Also endure pain should not drop health. It's supposed to be the last resort cooldown, not a death sentence thing (hey dude, chase me, I will have 1 hp soon!).

FInally I'd make a reflect reflecting everything (except aoe) for 100% damage. Why? Well, first, people are just bashing through jugg's reflect because the damage back is very low. Mercs aren't get hit because of heal on reflect. Operative reflects 150% which kinda hurts.

Second, I see no reason the original owner of the reflect has the most garbage version of it.

Finally, it is just irritating when you pop reflect before hardstun and still lose freaking full health due to melee and special attacks hitting through reflect.

I disagree with the accuracy bit (kinda), mostly because in my experience accuracy adds a pretty significant QOL, considering sorc healers have 10% defense, and almost all the tanks have a 5% accuracy debuff. I know it's an unpopular opinion due to PvPers historically eschewing accuracy, but with galactic command I've never felt like changing out of my PvE build, and I haven't felt like the accuracy hurts dps much at all, tbh, besides the lowered enraged defense potential.

However, I do think that regardless of that ED just needs some DR on it outside of healing and healing increases, it scales *********** terribly right now because unlike reactive shield which gives a huge amount of DR and stabilizes damage mitigation across any amount of attacking players, ED provides more benefit against 1 attacking player and does literally nothing against 3 or more.

Just an aside note for everyone

A commando will always mitigate X% of incoming damage from reactive shield, regardless of what damage is incoming, whether it be 50000 or 150000, X% of that will be mitigated. The heal just adds more 1v1 potential to it.

A flat heal like ED will always heal X%, regardless of who is hitting them. If it heals 75000 health, it will heal 75000 regardless of whether the person takes 10k damage or 1000000 damage. And that is the problem. It's a cooldown that does not scale with damage taken in any way, which has to be fixed if we want Juggernauts to have good defensive cooldowns. You see these problems in Group Ranked and harder Solo Ranked matches purely because if you have a healer on you, ED really does jack potato, it's a delay cooldown, but doesn't mitigate damage whatsoever, making it still just as hard for a healer to prop you back up as it is without popping ED, because there's no real "buffer"

Alright, I'm going down Grims line of thought with this, but going of the name "Enraged Defense", maybe we should get rid of the heal on that for good?

The name suggests something like the juggernaut uses his rage to mitigate damage, or for guardians, they concentrate to do so.

And since the rage/focus helps with combat proficiency also, maybe rework it into some cooldown that increases DR and damage as well?

My idea for it would be someting like: "For the next 20 seconds, you build up stacks of ED/FD every time you get hit by a direct attack. Each stack increases DR and damage done by 2.5%. Stacks up to 10 stacks. Stacks last for 15 seconds".

Numbers are obviously just there to give you an idea. But basically, if your opponents keep hitting you, they make life worse for themselves and buff your dr.

Also, get rid of the additional health on EP, make it a flat out heal or rework it into something similar to Maras Undying Rage.

I totally support the Pooled Hatred changes.

And Saber Reflect... I see were you're going with it Ry, but I think a reflect on anything would be too much.

But I guess if they made it so, the should get rid of the +2 seconds on Intimidating/Daunting Presence(should be a tank thing only, imho). Maybe rework that utility so that the lost heal on ED(see above), becomes part of SR for dps and for tanks it keeps the +2 seconds.

Step 1: Keep Enraged Defenses the way it is, and add a line saying "Also immediatly fills your resolve bar".

Step 2: Make Intervene a "Heroic Leap" like mechanic that gives its defensive buff to everyone in a small AoE around where you land. Make it on a 1 minute CD, the CD being reduced by 6 seconds per targets hit. This lets you use it as a group defe sive CD or an escape.

Step 3: Keep the reflect mechanic the way it is, but make it reflect effects too (such as DoTs, slows, etc. Stuns might be a bit OP).

Step 4: Enjoy.

Step 5: See Juggs beaten into the next universe with the nerf hammer.

Because what you suggest would bei OP as ****