Thanks for the input everyone.

In regards to the Ilum PvP, yeah if the quests were based on player kills and there was no reason not to die... exploitation is obvious. It's hard to believe that surprised anyone. Players will maximize the reward for as little effort however they can.

Open-world PvP needs to be like the warzones, just on a larger scale. Create control stations that each faction has to take control of, award pts. for maintaining control of those stations, increase the rate you gain pts. based on the number of stations your faction controls. This way both factions have a reason to take control and keep control of these stations. Wanna add some fun? Add a turret or two (like the kind you find in Colicoid Wargames) at each of the control points which can only be manned by members of the faction that control that station. Then give bonus pts. for accomplishments similar to the warzone medals. Maybe also have some kind of pts. modifier based on the number of players in the area. That way if there's just one person they can't just sit there and farm points.

On this point, and the other you mentioned regarding Legacy costs, there are virtually no money sinks in this game. I know you mentioned in your OP that you've been fifty for a couple of months now and just recently hit one million credits, but I wager a lot of the population is sitting on at least five times that. Money sinks are important in my opinion, otherwise your economy is pretty much useless.

 

I would be curious to know what you've been spending your credits on?

No money sinks? There's repair costs, crew missions, GTN fees, the speeder licenses, the speeders themselves, the cost of skills, respecs (if you need them), and then the insane costs to unslot mods.

Honestly I'm not sure what I did wrong or what I'm doing wrong when it comes to credits, but I've always seemed to have less then most people. I don't know, too many Underworld Trading missions? How would I even gauge that? That's the thing, if I'm doing too many of them, how am I suppose to tell?

Good post.

I'll add a few notes on some of the issues:

Customization:

- Overall, I'd give it a 2 on a scale of 1-10. For Jedi, a 1 one would be generous. You can look like Obi-Wan Kenobi... or if you save all your pennies and work really hard, you can look like.... Obi Wan Kenobi.

- I'd give the quality of the artwork an 8. The problem is that we have very good artwork of very bland and repetitive designs.

Crafting (Synthweaving and Armormech specifically):

- Why are purple resources so hard to find? Even blue and white resources sell for more than the items that they are used to make.

- Many high level items look exactly like low level ones. There are often (always?) generic vendor trash items that look exactly the same as what you can craft.

- Crafters should be able to make gear comparable to the best gear in the game, and be able to make looks that can't be purchased. This should have been rule #1.

Social Points:

- A completely fubar system. Very high numbers are required to reach ranks above 1, yet most "group" content gives a handful of points, sometimes literally none at all. The fact that Esselles/BT farming is the only moderately reliable way to get social points should have set alarm bells ringing in developer meetings.

Crafting (Synthweaving and Armormech specifically):

- Why are purple resources so hard to find? Even blue and white resources sell for more than the items that they are used to make.

You noticed that too huh? It seems like if you buy the crafting materials you need to craft an item off the GTN, it will cost you more then the item will sell for. This almost forces you to make an alt in order to supply your crafter with the materials you need. And considering the time and work necessary to level another character, it makes for quite a hassle.

- Crafters should be able to make gear comparable to the best gear in the game, and be able to make looks that can't be purchased. This should have been rule #1.

Social Points:

- A completely fubar system. Very high numbers are required to reach ranks above 1, yet most "group" content gives a handful of points, sometimes literally none at all. The fact that Esselles/BT farming is the only moderately reliable way to get social points should have set alarm bells ringing in developer meetings.

Exactly. I've done a couple FPs where I didn't earn a single Social Pt. because there was no conversations. I think Hammerstation and Cademimu. And I don't get why you get double points when you get the lucky conversation roll. Essentially, you're being rewarded for something you have no control over. Like I said before, I'm not sure what the goal of this system was, but I know it isn't working.

On this point, and the other you mentioned regarding Legacy costs, there are virtually no money sinks in this game. I know you mentioned in your OP that you've been fifty for a couple of months now and just recently hit one million credits, but I wager a lot of the population is sitting on at least five times that. Money sinks are important in my opinion, otherwise your economy is pretty much useless.

 

I would be curious to know what you've been spending your credits on?

Some of the crafting resource missions are very expensive when you consider the cost of the mission vs. the odds of you getting that rare resource you are looking for. In the 20's you could easily spend 10's of thousands of credits without getting a single rare.

The end-game system needs to be simplified and/or explained to the player. I mean, as a player, I shouldn't HAVE to go on the net to learn how to play the game. I'm still not positive on how everything works. So I need Tionese Crystals and Tionese Comms to get Tionese gear. And I get those from completing Hardmode FPs. Why is there two different Tionese resources exactly? I get Columi Comms from completing Ops, but I can also earn trade-in items that will give me a whole piece of Columi gear. I don't know how you get Rakata gear, I'm guessing from Hardmode Ops? And then Black Hole gear has better stats then my Columi gear but doesn't provide me with the Set Bonus for the Rakata Force-Master gear. So, I dunno. Skip the Black Hole gear? But then what am I suppose to do with all the Black Hole Comms I earned? Campaign gear gives me the bonus and has better stats, but I have no idea how you get Campaign gear. And then there are all the Daily Comms I've been working on earning. Let's see the mods are equal to Tionese gear, so wait I should have gotten those before earning the Tionese gear? Dang it! And then there are earpieces and implants which are better then the Columi ones, but can also be earned from the Rakata gear vendor, so... um, ok. Then there are relics which I don't think can be earned elsewhere. So use the daily Comms on the relics and the earpieces/implants, or just use them on the relics and get the earpiece/implant some other way? So, once I get all my gear up to Tionese level there's no reason to do HM FPs anymore? Ok, quick question... WHAT THE **** IS GOING ON?!?!

This paragraph made me laugh so hard, because I thought the same exact thing when I was gearing up (minus the black hole stuff as it was before that was added). I don't know who they assigned to do the loot system for PVE, but yeah it's confusing as hell. At least the drops in flashpoints/operations for classes that weren't in party aren't an issue anymore.

State of The Game: My Opinion2. The current crafting system is broken.When I open my Synthweaving window, I am greeted by a massive list of recipes; most of which are for items that no one will ever want and there is no reason for me to make.

Well, I can't speak for Synthweaving as I have not yet made a character who learned that craft but I can say that my Armormech bounty hunter has made a lot of money selling both green and blue armor items. Sometimes the auctions go by with no bids but I sell a good 60-65% of the items I list. The blues are more popular but a surprisingly high number of greens has sold for me.

Synthweaving, I would think, would provide a similar experience as it also provides armor items.

Game play rewards the main character with many blue and orange items so I doubt they're being purchased for that. I expect they're being given to companions.

Well, I can't speak for Synthweaving as I have not yet made a character who learned that craft but I can say that my Armormech bounty hunter has made a lot of money selling both green and blue armor items. Sometimes the auctions go by with no bids but I sell a good 60-65% of the items I list. The blues are more popular but a surprisingly high number of greens has sold for me.

 

Synthweaving, I would think, would provide a similar experience as it also provides armor items.

Honestly I haven't tried selling many green or blue items. I mean, when I was leveling up the gear I got from missions or with commendations was good enough for me and my companion, so I didn't need to buy anything off the GTN. And I figured that if I didn't why would other people?

But you said you sell 60-65% of the gear you put up for sale? Is that a good number to you? I mean what do you do with the other 35-40% of the items? Just sell them like the garbage loot to a store?

As I was walking my horse back to the stables after a day on the trails I was jolted back to reality with a loud banging banging noise. The noise not unlike severe thunder seemed to emanate from all directions...it grew very dark and I noticed the wood land critters running frantically in the other direction.

It was then I saw it....as big as a mountain, as dark and ominous as a nuclear bomb mushroom cloud...It was too late to run....it hit me with the force of a freight train....just before I blacked out I heard a loud voice proclaiming very clearly.....YOU HAVE BEEN STRUCK BY A WALL OF TEXT AND RECEIVED A CRIT OF 200,000 word damage.

State of the Game?

Dead.

 

Just need to implement a Cash Shop and F2P.

 

Then, EA can dig a hole, roll SWTOR into it, and cover it with dirt.

 

Something EA seems very skilled at doing to MMOs.

 

If it just doesn't put a bullet in their heads.

Cash Shop / Good Idea

F2P / Bad Idea, will kill the game even more.

If people can't learn the more difficult ways of crafting and missions, then please play some other game. I came here because the game looked detailed enough to hold my interest. Like most single and MMO games today are way to simplified because people QQ too much about learning how to use features, instead of just learning them. As for missions. I can not believe I am seeing people QQ for groups to do easy beginner missions like Red Machine that I have soloed already after playing 2 lousy days. The only issue I have seen is combat does need some fixing. Auto target closet enemy does not work and becomes annoying trying to use a vibro or saber.

Cash Shop / Good Idea

F2P / Bad Idea, will kill the game even more.

If people can't learn the more difficult ways of crafting and missions, then please play some other game. I came here because the game looked detailed enough to hold my interest. Like most single and MMO games today are way to simplified because people QQ too much about learning how to use features, instead of just learning them. As for missions. I can not believe I am seeing people QQ for groups to do easy beginner missions like Red Machine that I have soloed already after playing 2 lousy days. The only issue I have seen is combat does need some fixing. Auto target closet enemy does not work and becomes annoying trying to use a vibro or saber.

This is not a mmo, this is a First person shooter with a story line. Very little of it has a mmo feel

This is not a mmo, this is a First person shooter with a story line. Very little of it has a mmo feel

If you think this is a fps please go onto bf3 as i could do with my knife kills badge.

More voice overs are needed badly.

It is the heart of the game.

I want a talking cow companion ASAP.

Now seriously....

To me the basis for every good and long lasting MMO is the quality of the servers and the game and the client.

The absence of bugs,crashes and lag(in real MMO situations not in 8v8 multiplayer modes).

If you don't have that...no matter how good your setting is and no matter how many voice overs you got you are bound to only one direction.

DOWN.

Well yeah, I mean technical issues are a given. Game stability is important. I still get some odd crashes or my game suddenly closing for no reason sometimes, but it's rare enough that it doesn't hurt my game experience too much.

I wanted to make this thread to point out what I feel are key issues with the current game design. I mean there are lots of things I'd like to see done. For example I wish there was a greater variety in the roles for a character to play. Currently it's just heal, damage, and tank. I kind of wish there was greater options for buffing allies, debuffing enemies, or controlling enemies.

But that's not what this thread is really about. I wanted to make this thread for a few reasons:

1. Point out design issues that I believe are seriously holding the game back.

2. Make my suggestions on how to fix them.

3. Discuss with other players to see if they agree/disagree with me, or if they have other ideas.

I truly hope the devs have read this and have taken my concerns to heart. I truly want the best for this game. I would absolutely hate for it to fall to the way-side and just fade-out like so many MMOs, and so I am trying my best to give constructive criticism that will help the game live as long as it possibly can.

Well the problems with this game start with the hero engine

(1) The dev's need to know how to optimize this engine sadly it is the main reason the game feels so bland

(2) Space combat on rails. Space combat was a huge part of Star Wars and we got cheated of it, when other games in the past did it so much better I.E. SWG.

(3) Putting the legacy system 1st, and real content second. The legacy system while it adds some ok perks really is a nothing other than a huge cash pit, and forced grind to buy the unlocks.

(4) Alt playability once you hit 50' get tired of dailies and the broken operations then you run alts, and well the same old boring quest over and over, makes you not want rais an alt especially after you done it 5 times.

(5) Forced to roll an alt on the opposite faction to get the hk companion.

(6) I am not sure it is the dev's or if it is ea, but they seam to have no clue.

(7) after 5 years of development we got a shallow game that would have been ok 5 years ago but in terms of other mmo's today it just really lacks.

Folks going oh wow we got server transfers are going to save the game. In the short term yes but then folks are going to hit the wall just like before and remembers why they left in the first place. A shallow game with lots of broken bits, that still need to be fixed.

A lot of people seem to complain about the space combat, but personally I like the rail-shooter feel. Honestly before it was announced I didn't think space-combat would be in the game at all.

I like the rail combat because it allows them to create a sequential mission and create a story. For example, I remember the first time I played one of the asteroid field "kill squadron" missions. I thought I'd just be dog-fighting a bunch of small ships, but then the dreadnought starts to appear from behind the asteroid and I had a kind of "oh crap" moment.

The new space missions look super exciting also, where we will be assaulting a larger structure and zooming through tight tunnels, much like Lando and the second Deathstar. If anything, I would like to see the space combat expanded upon and used more often. Also create longer story driven missions.

Criticism on the crafting system seems bogus IMHO.

One thing I've done is not buying every recipe that's ever available if I don't need it and it isn't something I plan on crafting to sell. That keeps my recipe list smaller and more useful.

Second, it's quite easy to get the recipe you want, craft a few greens and RE them until you get the blue that you want. Then manufacture a few blues to RE to get the purple. Then you craft the purples you need and run with it. I usually get about 2-3 levels out of a purple, and purchasing the special mats is pretty easy by funneling funds from 50s who run dailies for cash.

I can envision the crafting system being improved, but calling it overly complicated and too clunky to use... I'm just not seeing it.

OP if they simplify the crafting in this game any more they might as well just take it out and give you a free player store where you rub the bottle and they give you the item you wanted. A lot of the OP is QQ from someone complaining about how they don't want to do the work but want to be rewarded.

Work is translated into items, which then have value because of the time/effort that went into that.

It's a game, but it's not supposed to be a game for a small child. This is the mentality that everybody should win all the time, which is one of the surest ways to promote boredom.

One thing I've done is not buying every recipe that's ever available if I don't need it and it isn't something I plan on crafting to sell. That keeps my recipe list smaller and more useful.

Well, maybe it's because the last MMO I played didn't have this type of crafting, so it's a new experience for me. But I guess I assumed that if there was a recipe to make an item, I would have a REASON to make the item at some point. I didn't realize until later that I was wasting a bunch of money making a huge cluttered list of recipes I didn't need.

Second, it's quite easy to get the recipe you want, craft a few greens and RE them until you get the blue that you want. Then manufacture a few blues to RE to get the purple. Then you craft the purples you need and run with it. I usually get about 2-3 levels out of a purple, and purchasing the special mats is pretty easy by funneling funds from 50s who run dailies for cash.

First, this is assuming you have 50s to run dailies on. Second, dailies can get pretty boring and tedious pretty fast.

And the whole RE system hoping for that 20% to hit to learn an improved version feels clunky. A possible alternative would be to essentially have a kind of experience meter for items. So you have a green recipe, once you make the item 5 times (just for an example) the recipe xp bar fills and then you get to pick one of the blue versions to learn. Then you make the blue version 5 times, that recipe's xp bar fills and you get to pick a purple version to learn. See what I'm saying? A critical success making an item could fill the bar 2 instead of 1.

This would allow you to ONLY learn the recipes you want without creating a bunch of clutter.

OP if they simplify the crafting in this game any more they might as well just take it out and give you a free player store where you rub the bottle and they give you the item you wanted. A lot of the OP is QQ from someone complaining about how they don't want to do the work but want to be rewarded.

 

Work is translated into items, which then have value because of the time/effort that went into that.

 

It's a game, but it's not supposed to be a game for a small child. This is the mentality that everybody should win all the time, which is one of the surest ways to promote boredom.

Wow... I feel extremely insulted. I'm not crying about not wanting to do the work. Believe me, I don't mind putting the effort forth. But that doesn't mean that putting the effort forth has to be mind-numbingly dull and tedious.

When I suggested the crafting system be "simplified" I didn't mean you should have to do less work to craft an item. I just meant the crafting system should be easier to understand and navigate. Like I said above, as someone coming into this kind of system rather new and not knowing what to expect, I've found the system rather "unfriendly." Like I said, as a Synth how was I suppose to know that most of the recipes I was buying would end up being useless clutter? And why bother having all this clutter at all?

Again the game does a poor job of explaining the game systems. For example, many of the Med and Heavy armor recipes in Synth require Scavenged Metals yet in the codex entry it never mentions Scavenging. The game also never explains how to get Exotic crafting materials which are needed for all high-end gear. All I'm saying is that it is hard to play (and enjoy) the game if you're not sure HOW to play it.

hmm, well then I apologize for being insulting. To me the whole game is so stripped down and user friendly that I really got bored fast. The mechanics of your character are easy to understand and master, so easy in fact that you have your end model with no real tweaking very soon after hitting 50. there's nothing else: Combat, combat, combat, story. combat, combat, combat.

Since they made everything else easy, I was hoping that crafting at least would have some meat on it, but no. Mats are tiered out and have no quality differences. The rarity in the tiers is simply a rate reducer for items, not a performance indicator of end product. The reason you got so bored is because you are right ... it's tedious.

Performing a predictable operation over and over for the same result is boring.

The answer here was to make crafting more complex, not more simple.

Crafting should also be a seperate game unto itself that requires some investment in gathering the best mats, learning the systems of crafting, and then utilizing the market.

Apparently it's impossible to make game systems both accessible and deep (easy to learn, hard to master).

hmm, well then I apologize for being insulting. To me the whole game is so stripped down and user friendly that I really got bored fast. The mechanics of your character are easy to understand and master, so easy in fact that you have your end model with no real tweaking very soon after hitting 50. there's nothing else: Combat, combat, combat, story. combat, combat, combat.

I completely agree. Once you pick your class, advanced class, and skill tree... that's basically it. Sure there can be a few differences in where you place the points, but nothing that makes you feel unique from someone else that picks the same skill tree. I would love a deeper more complex character progression system.

Since they made everything else easy, I was hoping that crafting at least would have some meat on it, but no. Mats are tiered out and have no quality differences. The rarity in the tiers is simply a rate reducer for items, not a performance indicator of end product. The reason you got so bored is because you are right ... it's tedious.

Performing a predictable operation over and over for the same result is boring.

The answer here was to make crafting more complex, not more simple.

 

Crafting should also be a seperate game unto itself that requires some investment in gathering the best mats, learning the systems of crafting, and then utilizing the market.

Again I completely agree. That's kind of what I am trying to say with this thread. We have the core game experience (combat, quests, story) but we need the game fleshed out a bit more. We need to fix the kinks, clearly define the core systems, and then expand upon them.

I would also like it if crafting was expanded upon. For example I'm a big supporter of mini-games in an MMO. They help break up the monotony and provide something else to do when the typical questing feels repetitive. I tried Free Realms for a while, and although I grew very bored very fast... I loved the mini-games used for collecting crafting materials (the actual crafting mini-games weren't as great). But through simple puzzle mini-games you gained resources based on how well you did and by accomplishing certain goals.

Now I'm not suggesting that TOR copy this system exactly, but implementing this kind of game philosophy could be fun.

Apparently it's impossible to make game systems both accessible and deep (easy to learn, hard to master).

It's not impossible, it's just harder and takes more time.

TOR is solid on the fundamentals but released without enough tools to bring players together. If you run a sandbox world, then sure, by all means, leave it to the players to get together on their own. But when you run a themepark MMO, you need to provide strong tools to bring players together because they are otherwise dispersed and riding different rides at given times.

TOR didn't do this at launch, and is suffering for it.

Most especially, the PVP game is lackluster, especially for those of us who rolled on PVP worlds expecting non-instanced PVP. Instead,

• Outlaw's Den is unfinished or abandoned from its original design intent and provides no incentive to go there
  
• Ilum failed, went back to the drawing boards and has yet to reappear
  
• The linearity of TOR's planets provides little incentive for PVPers to return there once they've leveled through the content
  
• Even while leveling through a world, there is no incentive to seek out enemy players and fight them, as your actions are meaningless in the scope of the broader conflict story-wise
  
• Rated warzones, of course, were shockingly delayed at the last minute---but even so, the concept of instanced PVP matches is at odds with incentivizing meaningful objective-based world PVP
  

In short, the PVP game is currently a failure. I remain hopeful that meaningful, objective-based world PVP will occur down the line. Beyond PVP, I remain critical of the lack of a group finder tool at launch. When, at the guild summit, devs expressed surprise to see so many players PVPing, I could only shake my head at their cluelessness. If you give one experience (warzones) a queuing mechanism, and you do not give the other experience (flashpoints) a similar mechanism, how is it remotely surprising that the one players can queue for is more popular? Come on, guys.

My opinion is that this game is dead from a hardcore-MMO enthusiast POV. It will go on and live for 10 years though, Star Wars Galaxies pulled it off with less than 300k subscribers.

But with that in mind, the playerbase will change and the developers will simply release more casual content at a means of preserving what little life this game has.

As an analogy, this game is much like Anakin Skywalker / Darth Vader. It was the chosen one, but then it fell from grace. What remains are it's chopped up remains (the layoffs) encased in a suit of darkness, it's potential is forever lost (Darth Vader could never force lightning to the lack of his arms and the force is with the living).

I'm sorry, this game has no hopes of revival. No MMO has ever done it before, and it certainly won't happen with EA/Bioware management at the helm. They've already moved onto Tigerwoods PGA 2013 and Tera.

Thanks for taking the time to write that OP - that's a great contribution

I haven't PvPed or joined a guild, so I can't comment on what you wrote for these, but I agree that:

- The story lines are great, definitely!

- We do need better customisation. I'm waiting to see what 1.3 brings, but I've found it surprising how hard it is simply to get each class to look like their archetype in the game. Can I be a jedi with plain clothes? No, I have to have patterns all over my cloak and wear heavy armour. Can I be a smuggler and wear smart tailored clothes? No, it seems like I have to have things with LED panels all over them and cloaks etc. etc.

- And yes, we shouldn't have to pay an augment removal tax. I really don't get that. Why do we have a tax on making whatever look of armour and weapons we like to wear and removing the augments from armour that we don't want to wear? Someone please explain how this is anything other than a pointless money sink.

- I haven't crafted too much - agree with you that the crafting screens look pretty confusing. I'm not getting this part of the game, to be honest. I agree with you and can see how this might be saved by having people craft interesting and unique armours that you can't get otherwise and then can be augmented post 1.3.

Thanks for taking the time to post - it was a great contributions and really thoughtful