I'm seeing a lot of discussion and controversy over which relics are BIS for dps classes. A lot of people are saying the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages is BIS and a lot of people are saying the on-equip Campaign relics are BIS.

For a Watchman Sentinel like myself that does Hard/Nightmare Mode Ops, which is the better choice? When number crunched, parsed, simulated, and everything else, which relic BIS?

I'm seeing a lot of discussion and controversy over which relics are BIS for dps classes. A lot of people are saying the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages is BIS and a lot of people are saying the on-equip Campaign relics are BIS.

 

For a Watchman Sentinel like myself that does Hard/Nightmare Mode Ops, which is the better choice? When number crunched, parsed, simulated, and everything else, which relic BIS?

I have not parsed it but it would just make sense to me that a constant +200 power is much better than an occasional extra tick of damage.

A lot of people are saying the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages is BIS

These people are correct imo. +power, all the time, increasing all damage on all attacks is much better than a proc that MIGHT go off once every 4.5 seconds or +power for a set duration on activation.

Especially for biochems whose "MOAR POWER NOW" needs are met by adrenals.

Now there are going to be exceptions to this, especially 'bursty' fights like Kephess but in general I prefer the WH ones. Also, I get to save my loot rolls for the stuff I really want and leave the relics for people who have no intention of ever doing pvp at all ever.

These people are correct imo. +power, all the time, increasing all damage on all attacks is much better than a proc that MIGHT go off once every 4.5 seconds or +power for a set duration on activation.

 

Especially for biochems whose "MOAR POWER NOW" needs are met by adrenals.

 

Now there are going to be exceptions to this, especially 'bursty' fights like Kephess but in general I prefer the WH ones. Also, I get to save my loot rolls for the stuff I really want and leave the relics for people who have no intention of ever doing pvp at all ever.

Kinda sad though the PvE DPS relics are worthless now. all the DPS in my guild just passes on them now if they drop. I just dont understand what would compel them to make a PvP item BiS for pve content :|

According to this last Q&A, the devs seem woefully ignorant that the PvP relics are now BiS for PvE

I got the same feeling and that really has me very worried about what he next tier of gear is going to look like

I got the same feeling and that really has me very worried about what he next tier of gear is going to look like

I agree. I mainly pve and now have to pvp grind if I want the best relics in game. I can't figure out why they did this.

It's a time sink. More time spent to get the gear you want = more extra months of your sub paid. Cha ching!

How do you figure that out? you pay for 1 month regardless of whether you spend 8 hours a day or 18 hours a day.

It only costs you more if you werent going to sub for the following month and it took you a day extra to grind one up.

I agree. I mainly pve and now have to pvp grind if I want the best relics in game. I can't figure out why they did this.

Weird, cause when i read the same post it came across to me that they know its unbalanced and they will be making changes to fix the issue.

I roll with the BH (not quite War Hero yet, PvP is always a grind to me) Power relic and the Rakata clicky Power Relic (I might grind out the Campaign one, but my Sent is now just my alt seeing as how back in April BW decided that they were going to require two tanks for current content) and my dps has pretty much sky-rocketed over the Proc relic. I'm parsing 1450 dps right now on the fleet dummy with all the server lag in 11/14 rakata gear, Chest and Implants are my only BH gear, and that's not even augmented or properly itemized. As compared to the barely 1300 I'd get with the proc relic.

This is in Combat spec btw.

I roll with the BH (not quite War Hero yet, PvP is always a grind to me) Power relic and the Rakata clicky Power Relic (I might grind out the Campaign one, but my Sent is now just my alt seeing as how back in April BW decided that they were going to require two tanks for current content) and my dps has pretty much sky-rocketed over the Proc relic. I'm parsing 1450 dps right now on the fleet dummy with all the server lag in 11/14 rakata gear, Chest and Implants are my only BH gear, and that's not even augmented or properly itemized. As compared to the barely 1300 I'd get with the proc relic.

 

This is in Combat spec btw.

Not trying to be snarky, but a 150 DPS swing from a single relic seems implausible. How many tests did you do? What is the standard deviation of the two DPS values you measured?

The DPS of the proc relics is pretty easy to measure/estimate. Also, the proc relics benefit from your critical chance and critical multiplier, but not from weapon or bonus damage. It appears that some are force and some are tech, although the item itself doesn't indicate this. Based on the proc chance, ICD and my average rate of attacks, the Rakata (168 tooltip) internal damage relic adds about 30 DPS for me. The corresponding Campaign relic would add about 33 DPS. With my current gear (almost full BH, with one Campaign hilt), this is about +2.2 or 2.5%, respectively.

The static +Power PvP relics are also pretty easy to analyze. The Recruit (+93) adds about +1.9%. The BM (+103) adds about +2.1%, the WH (+113) adds about 2.3%, and the +123 (not sure if in-game - I don't PvP) adds about 2.5%. These numbers are based on the exact damage formulas for each ability, and the relative damage done by each ability in my parses on the training dummy.

Using the same method, the stats of the Matrix Cube add about 2.0%.

The clicky is a bit more complicated, since you can control it. Worst case is to use it on cooldown, which means +310 Power (+6.3% with my gear) 1/6 of the time, or +1.1% on average for a very long fight. It is hard to see how selective use could more than double its relative benefit, although depending on the length of the fight, the uptime could be more than 1/6 (e.g. in a fight that lasts 2m20s, it is up 28.6% of the time, for a 1.8% overall damage increase; in a 5m fight, it is up 20% of the time, for a 1.3% overall damage increase, etc). Situationally, a large increase in damage for a short period of time may be more valuable than a constant increase, even if the constant increase is larger over the whole fight (which is why clickies have been banished from PvP...)

In summary, the difference between the various relics for overall average DPS appears practically negligible, and an 11.5% increase in DPS by changing from one to another seems hard to credit.

The clicky is a bit more complicated, since you can control it. Worst case is to use it on cooldown, which means +310 Power (+6.3% with my gear) 1/6 of the time, or +1.1% on average for a very long fight. It is hard to see how selective use could more than double its relative benefit, although depending on the length of the fight, the uptime could be more than 1/6 (e.g. in a fight that lasts 2m20s, it is up 28.6% of the time, for a 1.8% overall damage increase; in a 5m fight, it is up 20% of the time, for a 1.3% overall damage increase, etc). Situationally, a large increase in damage for a short period of time may be more valuable than a constant increase, even if the constant increase is larger over the whole fight (which is why clickies have been banished from PvP...)

My memory failed me on this one, I thought the buff was for 20 seconds, but it is 30, which brings it more in line with the other relics:

+6.3% for 1/4 of the time is +1.575% worst case, or +1.89% in a 5 minute fight. By stacking with Inspiration, Zen, etc, it is probably over +2%, quite close to the others.

My memory failed me on this one, I thought the buff was for 20 seconds, but it is 30, which brings it more in line with the other relics:

 

+6.3% for 1/4 of the time is +1.575% worst case, or +1.89% in a 5 minute fight. By stacking with Inspiration, Zen, etc, it is probably over +2%, quite close to the others.

But wouldn't the constant power relics also benefit from Inspiration/Zen? (I don't know if the damage proc relics are affected by inspiration. You mentioned earlier that they aren't affected by Bonus Damage or Force Bonus Damage).

But wouldn't the constant power relics also benefit from Inspiration/Zen? (I don't know if the damage proc relics are affected by inspiration.

Yes, but to a lesser degree.

Take a simplified example, suppose one relic gives a +4% passive bonus to base damage all the time, and another gives a +16% clicky bonus to base damage for 15 seconds every minute (1/4 of the time). On average (and in isolation), these both correspond to a 4% bonus.

Now combine these with an independent, Inspiration-like buff that increases all damage by 25% for 15 seconds every minute. (These aren't real bonuses for relics/buffs, but chosen so the results come out to be round numbers).

For the passive bonus relic, the overall increase will be +4% 3/4's of the time, and +5% 1/4 of the time (when the other buff is active). So the overall increase will be +4.25%.

For the clicky relic, if you stack the two buffs, then it is +20% 1/4 of the time, or +5% overall.

Not trying to be snarky, but a 150 DPS swing from a single relic seems implausible. How many tests did you do? What is the standard deviation of the two DPS values you measured?

Right it does sound a bit extreme after I think about it, while I did use two separate Relics (Proc on one parse and Static on the other). There are probably several variables that I changed to affect the damage increase, talents (adding accuracy), and I think standing behind the dummy helped too, I noticed fewer and fewer dodges from the dummy. I'll do some parsing again today, same spec, positioning, just different relics and post links.

My understanding is that avoidance does not depend on position. Certainly Jedi player characters happily deflect blaster shots from behind. If reduced avoidance from behind could be documented, it would be very interesting. I will try to test next time I'm at the dummy.

On the other hand, today I witnessed what seemed to be a dramatic difference in parses due to lag. I was testing in a high-population instance of Republic Fleet (~250 players), and getting consistently low numbers in half a dozen 5-10 minute parses. I couldn't figure out why my numbers were so low. I then switched to another instance that only had 10 people, and with no other changes to gear, buffs, or rotation, my DPS went up by over 100 points (from high 1500's to 1700). I attribute this to lag, since while on the high-pop instance, my abilities were noticeably hitching or being delayed.

Shouldn't affect comparing two relics one after another, but for tests spread hours or days apart, the server conditions may be more important than any gear...

My understanding is that avoidance does not depend on position. Certainly Jedi player characters happily deflect blaster shots from behind. If reduced avoidance from behind could be documented, it would be very interesting. I will try to test next time I'm at the dummy.

 

On the other hand, today I witnessed what seemed to be a dramatic difference in parses due to lag. I was testing in a high-population instance of Republic Fleet (~250 players), and getting consistently low numbers in half a dozen 5-10 minute parses. I couldn't figure out why my numbers were so low. I then switched to another instance that only had 10 people, and with no other changes to gear, buffs, or rotation, my DPS went up by over 100 points (from high 1500's to 1700). I attribute this to lag, since while on the high-pop instance, my abilities were noticeably hitching or being delayed.

 

Shouldn't affect comparing two relics one after another, but for tests spread hours or days apart, the server conditions may be more important than any gear...

You just had to mention server lag... I did one parse with the BM relic, did about 1600 EDPS (I got a few upgrades + 2 more augments + Nightmare Pilgrim buff) and when i went to parse with the Proc relic the server lag made in unplayable... I'll try again later in the week.

Just as an aside, I tested whether hitting the training dummy from behind changes the rate of misses/avoidance.

I did ~6 minute parses, doing nothing but spamming Strike.

By luck, I had exactly the same number swings with Strike in both parses: 227 Strikes, which means 681 main-hand attacks and 227 off-hand attacks.

Assuming the dummy has 10% avoidance, with my Accuracy I would expect 9.07% avoids on the main-hand, and 10% avoids + 32.07% misses with the offhand attacks.

Thus I would expect 61.77 MH avoids, 22.70 OH avoids, and 72.80 OH misses; since the log file doesn't distinguish MH/OH attacks, that means 84.47 total avoids and 72.80 misses in 908 attacks with Strike. Or a total miss/avoid rate of 157.27/908 = 17.32%.

Parse data:

Front: 17.51 +/ - 1.26%

Back: 16.85 +/- 1.24%

Both tests are completely consistent with the assumed 10% all-around avoidance, and the difference between front/back is well within the variation expected from the RNG.

The parsers don't break down miss/avoid seperately for individual abilities, but overall, I had 81 Dodges from the front, and 79 Dodges from behind - statistically, no difference. The number of avoids from both front and back was slightly lower than expected (84.5), but well within the variation expected from the RNG.

I conclude there is no evidence for a significant difference in avoidance based on position.

It's good to know that there's no statistical difference, but I'll still always try and position myself to the back 180 degrees of the target because it psychologically feels better.

Generally much safer too, unless the boss has the equivalent of a tail-swipe...

Generally much safer too, unless the boss has the equivalent of a tail-swipe...

I have yet to see a dragon so we're safe there, ignoring Karaggas exhaust flames...