Jump to content

Current returns from expertise and primary stats


Kelrizzo

Recommended Posts

Mitigation is important on damage soaking classes.. DPS need to focus on maximizing DPS. If you can increase your DPS while keeping your EHP in the same neighborhood, or even increasing it.. its a no brainer. 3% mitigation or 3.7% more health.. as a DPS main, I know what I'm going to choose.

 

Right because dps classes NEVER get hit or anything in pvp am I right?

 

DEAD PEOPLE DO 0 DPS.

 

 

 

And if you multiply those numbers by ability damage multipliers, the time difference amplifies. If you are trying to maximize damage, why the hell does the cost matter?

 

It's not any different. I'll use the TT from my sage example.

 

19500/3576.12 = 5.45 TT

 

19910/3596.14 = 5.53 TT

 

 

Again, time difference is more drastic with ability damage multipliers, and PvE/PvP hybrid still holds the edge.

 

With getting healed for 10k. Cause you know, my healers aren't bads.

 

29500/3576.12 = 8.25 TT

 

29910/3596.14 = 8.32 TT

 

So congrats. You just spent millions of credits to make your character not any better in pvp.

 

And again you prove yourself ignorant. Expertise has diminishing returns and thus a softcap. Small amounts of expertise increase your PvP damage bonus drastically. As you gain more and more expertise, this gain decreases incrementally. The key to maximizing damage is finding the point at which the damage added from an amount of additional expertise is equivalent to the damage added from extra mainstat/power/etc, while keeping endurance in mind.

 

Just to prove my point:

 

w/ 120 exp (2x pvp relics are BiS in pvp since you can't use activateds) Dmg Boost = 2.94%, Dmg Red = 2.86% :

 

Primary Avg Dmg = 1166.9

1166.9 * 1.0294 = 1201.21

 

w/ 1396 exp

 

Primary Dmg Avg = 1034.7

1034.7 * 1.253 = 1296.5

 

The pure PvE gear hits more weakly even before damage reduction is taken into account. They also have less a significantly smaller EHP (21370 / (1 - .0286) = 21999 compared to 24371).

 

If you are focusing on DPS, the expertise softcap appears to be in the 1000-1100 range, depending on where you want your power, crit, surge, and accuracy. For a tank or a healer, this range will be different, but I can assure you that it will be below 1396 expertise. Power crystals >>> expertise crystals.

 

I know expertise has DR, but it's small.

 

And you need to learn what a soft cap is because expertise does not have one (at least one we can reach in current gear). Soft cap is the point at which getting more of a stat is insignificant, like stacking surge past 75%. There is no soft cap for expertise.

 

But hey, keep running around with your LAWL1000 expertise. I enjoy smashing you bads for over 7k.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 168
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Really? So the ss link in my sig with 1 mill damage and a 7.3 k smash must be fake. I even hovered over my damage to show biggest hit.

 

Not fake, but proves nothing..... Unless the ss happens to show who you hit and their EXP level... Do you think you could Smash me for 7k since I am at 900 EXP? Meet me on Ilum @800EST, by the Jedi Cave(yeah school yard brawl style :D). I won't even fight back or pop any CDs..... Try as many times as you like.

 

You seem to be confused on what the debate is. There are plenty of WH Sages that get hit for lol 6k+ smash numbers right now. Your SS just confirms it... This was a team full of squishy; undergeared healers versus you guys, nothing more... The kicker? A BiS player can go higher than that (given the same dice roll you got on your epic Smash hit)to the same person... so.... um..

 

 

Good job showing Smash is OP'd?:D

 

Speaking of Smash....

 

@Smash

And yeah that would be nice, if you could instantly heal someone for 10k. You also still ignore the fact that the lower EXP person is putting out more damage... You know? Doing what they should be doing in a WZ... Killing things.

 

Chances are that any encounter you face as a healer will end before you can "outheal" the difference... The only time it could matter is if you are in a healfest/zergfest, like the one Luvi has shown... And we all know that's what top level PvP is about...

 

People die in WZs(auto-replenish), people self-heal in WZ (both in and out of combat), WZ are fluid, so you ain't healing 100% of the time and your teammates aren't being healed 100% of the time.

 

Why a healer would want a DPS to limit his burst in a game about burst is beyond me.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh and by the way, I didn't spend millions. Only extraction costs on WH gear for stabilizers and the mission mats obtained by my toons companions... Gave them to a Cyber who had the DG pattern....

 

Voila... 63 grade armorings...

 

Total cost around: 100k...

Edited by L-RANDLE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not fake, but proves nothing..... Unless the ss happens to show who you hit and their EXP level... Do you think you could Smash me for 7k since I am at 900 EXP? Meet me on Ilum @800EST, by the Jedi Cave(yeah school yard brawl style :D). I won't even fight back or pop any CDs..... Try as many times as you like.

 

You seem to be confused on what the debate is. There are plenty of WH Sages that get hit for lol 6k+ smash numbers right now. Your SS just confirms it... This was a team full of squishy; undergeared healers versus you guys, nothing more... The kicker? A BiS player can go higher than that (given the same dice roll you got on your epic Smash hit)to the same person... so.... um..

 

 

Good job showing Smash is OP'd?:D

 

No, I'm not confused. You claimed that the only time you could hit someone that hard is if it was a lowbie in greens. I assume by lowbie you mean sub level 50. I can tell you for fact that the highest I have done is 9.3k, and my friend just hit a 9.5k this week. In my case, I had expertise buff and 10% damage increase from assassin debuff on target. No bloodthirst on sunders. So yes, you are correct, you can go even higher. 7.3k is not even that big of a hit.

 

I don't duel for no reason, it' a waste of time. If you want to duel it's going to be at least 500k per duel, id prefer 1 million. If you can scrape together those kinds of credits then sure, youre on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right because dps classes NEVER get hit or anything in pvp am I right?

 

DEAD PEOPLE DO 0 DPS.

 

But the numbers we've both crunched show that the PvE/PvP hybrid lives just as long as the pure PvP if not longer, and yet does more damage to any target, whether the target are wearing 0 exp or 1396 exp. So what is the issue here?

 

So congrats. You just spent millions of credits to make your character not any better in pvp.

 

Oh I see.. you don't want to spend money or time for minor increases. Better skip that EWH grind then.. it'll take too long! This thread isn't about how much money or time is required to min/max, but what stats result constitute min/max.

 

I know expertise has DR, but it's small.

 

And you need to learn what a soft cap is because expertise does not have one (at least one we can reach in current gear). Soft cap is the point at which getting more of a stat is insignificant, like stacking surge past 75%. There is no soft cap for expertise.

 

A soft cap is the practical maximum to raise a stat. Expertise begins to lose value in the 900s, which is why PvE armorings that trade 33 mainstat for 50 expertise add more damage! Expertise is point for point always worth less than mainstat, crit, or power (hence why you should be using power or crit crystals).

 

But hey, keep running around with your LAWL1000 expertise. I enjoy smashing you bads for over 7k.

 

You are awfully defensive. Enjoy running around in your max expertise wondering how the top teams are destroying you. Keep sticking those fingers in your ears and singing that song.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1100 Expertise max on a DPS/Healer. Use PVE Custom Belt/bracers with 27 Armorings and 27 Power mods. Use Mainstat Augment and a PVE Mainhand. You'll be fine.

 

400k-700k heals (depends on how silly the other team is)

or

400-600k damage

 

where as with 1300ish EXP I see

270k-600k heals (same note)

or

250l-500k damage:rak_01:

 

No, I wont post pictures. Why, cause I dont care. If people really wanted to know what did best then would try with both expertise being maxed out, and with it being at the suggested range instead of sitting in a forum for 16 pages trying to figure it out with maths. =)

 

Edit: Note that it is fully tweaked WH gear with the exceptions fo the Belt, bracers and mainhand.

Edited by AnteJeebuz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I'm not confused. You claimed that the only time you could hit someone that hard is if it was a lowbie in greens. I assume by lowbie you mean sub level 50. I can tell you for fact that the highest I have done is 9.3k, and my friend just hit a 9.5k this week. In my case, I had expertise buff and 10% damage increase from assassin debuff on target. No bloodthirst on sunders. So yes, you are correct, you can go even higher. 7.3k is not even that big of a hit.

 

I don't duel for no reason, it' a waste of time. If you want to duel it's going to be at least 500k per duel, id prefer 1 million. If you can scrape together those kinds of credits then sure, youre on.

 

Yeah you are... You missed the point entirely. At the core this discussion is about WZ effectiveness, not who can hit the hardest (even though hybrids can hit harder than you... lol).

 

I was not actually trying to challenge you in some "der der, im better than you, blah blah blah..." I invited you to ilum to see if you can hit me for 7k.. No more, no less. I was not even going to fight back...

 

Here I will give you the "for dummies version". If you came to Ilum and hit me for x damage with your "BiS" PvP gear, if you replace certain pieces, you would hit me for more damage... Since epic Smash numbers make you happy, then why are you limiting yourself? It's not theory, and as the last poster stated, you are acting like an ostrich at the beach, singing "lalala".

 

 

PS: Im rich, so if you need 500K I am more than willing to give it to you. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the numbers we've both crunched show that the PvE/PvP hybrid lives just as long as the pure PvP if not longer, and yet does more damage to any target, whether the target are wearing 0 exp or 1396 exp. So what is the issue here?

 

Only in a 1v1. Once healers get mixed into the picture and your life gets extended, the 1393 does better.

 

Oh I see.. you don't want to spend money or time for minor increases. Better skip that EWH grind then.. it'll take too long! This thread isn't about how much money or time is required to min/max, but what stats result constitute min/max.

 

You're not mix/maxing anything. Min/maxing means you've improved the effectiveness of your char in a tangible way. Your 1000 exp char is not an improvement, and actually becomes a detriment when heals get involved.

 

A soft cap is the practical maximum to raise a stat. Expertise begins to lose value in the 900s, which is why PvE armorings that trade 33 mainstat for 50 expertise add more damage! Expertise is point for point always worth less than mainstat, crit, or power (hence why you should be using power or crit crystals).

 

Read a graph.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=293

 

Notice the massive CHANGE in DR curve of surge. It's not linear anymore once you hit around 25%. Soft cap.

 

Now look at expertise. The DR on it is linear. It doesn't drop off at any point (at least to what graph plots which is 2500). No soft cap.

 

Thank you come again.

 

 

 

You are awfully defensive. Enjoy running around in your max expertise wondering how the top teams are destroying you. Keep sticking those fingers in your ears and singing that song.

 

Guild I'm in is the top Rep pvp guild. Our highest rated guy is 3200 I believe. Nice try though.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1100 Expertise max on a DPS/Healer. Use PVE Custom Belt/bracers with 27 Armorings and 27 Power mods. Use Mainstat Augment and a PVE Mainhand. You'll be fine.

 

400k-700k heals (depends on how silly the other team is)

or

400-600k damage

 

where as with 1300ish EXP I see

270k-600k heals (same note)

or

250l-500k damage:rak_01:

 

No, I wont post pictures. Why, cause I dont care. If people really wanted to know what did best then would try with both expertise being maxed out, and with it being at the suggested range instead of sitting in a forum for 16 pages trying to figure it out with maths. =)

 

Edit: Note that it is fully tweaked WH gear with the exceptions fo the Belt, bracers and mainhand.

 

Nobody gives two ***** about your anecdotal evidence. I believe both Akeba and I will agree on this point at least. Goodbye.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think my mods are pretty min maxed on both my PvE and PvP sets but I could probably re-arrange the augs or drop expertise. I'm using 1396 expertise in PvP with bonus damage in the 900 range ( I don't want to sacrifice crit and alacrity too much since I respec a lot) and around 2450 willpower and 1060 bonus damage in PvE (63 all around minus the relay, which seemingly no one can craft on my server). All augs, in both sets, are willpower augs.

 

Any suggestions here? Should I drop the expertise crystals for power ones? And how about the PvE set? I tend to use the matrix cube for the extra crit since I don't think it matters much if I have 1060 bonus damage or 15 or so more. I did around 1650 dps on twh a good deal of mods ago.

Edited by Washingtoon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only in a 1v1. Once healers get mixed into the picture and your life gets extended, the 1393 does better.

 

Here we will just have to agree to disagree. My stance is that as a DPS class, doing more damage to a target means bigger burst and less uptime for that target. The EHP increase is a bonus.

 

You're not mix/maxing anything. Min/maxing means you've improved the effectiveness of your char in a tangible way. Your 1000 exp char is not an improvement, and actually becomes a detriment when heals get involved.

 

You've yet to prove this point numerically. I've shown that using PvE/PvP hybrid my kill times are faster. They were still faster under your calcs with 10k heals. Not much faster using those numbers, but these differences are only amplified while under bloodthirst, expertise buff, vindicator set bonus, etc.

 

Read a graph.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/attachment.php?aid=293

 

Notice the massive CHANGE in DR curve of surge. It's not linear anymore once you hit around 25%. Soft cap.

 

Now look at expertise. The DR on it is linear. It doesn't drop off at any point (at least to what graph plots which is 2500). No soft cap.

 

Thank you come again.

 

You should take your own advice. The slope on expertise is quite low compared to crit and surge, even well past their softcaps. Their damage bonus is a dependent relationship, and thus not as straightforward as expertise, but it does indicate that some amount of crit and surge are more valuable point for point than expertise.

 

Going by your argument we should just stack mainstat, since its DR is even less noticeable than expertise right? :p

 

Guild I'm in is the top Rep pvp guild. Our highest rated guy is 3200 I believe. Nice try though.

 

Of course you are. Everyone on the forums is in their server/faction's top guild dontcha know? :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here we will just have to agree to disagree. My stance is that as a DPS class, doing more damage to a target means bigger burst and less uptime for that target. The EHP increase is a bonus.

 

Not dying is a part of it.

 

 

You've yet to prove this point numerically. I've shown that using PvE/PvP hybrid my kill times are faster. They were still faster under your calcs with 10k heals. Not much faster using those numbers, but these differences are only amplified while under bloodthirst, expertise buff, vindicator set bonus, etc.

 

*** you talking about? I just showed that the kill times are almost equal with no heals, and equal when you get healed for 10k using both your mara numbers and my sage numbers. If you get healed for more, the kill times favor the max expertise guy.

 

Are you blind or something?

 

You should take your own advice. The slope on expertise is quite low compared to crit and surge, even well past their softcaps. Their damage bonus is a dependent relationship, and thus not as straightforward as expertise, but it does indicate that some amount of crit and surge are more valuable point for point than expertise.

 

 

 

Going by your argument we should just stack mainstat, since its DR is even less noticeable than expertise right? :p

 

Did you not look at the damn graph? A soft cap means the DR on a stat takes a dive at a certain point. You can see this with surge and crit rating. Expertise on the other hand has a LINEAR DR, which means it doesn't take a dive when you reach a certain threshold like surge or crit rating. Thus, no soft cap. That is the proper use of soft cap. Not your "I feel like anything past this amount is not worth it" crap.

 

 

 

Of course you are. Everyone on the forums is in their server/faction's top guild dontcha know? :D

 

Except it's true. Go ask on The Bastion forums.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wrote a post pointing out people are using terms like "soft cap" without apparently knowing what they mean, which if you'll pardon my British, made their points less useful.

 

But then I realised there was probably no point.

 

The way the combat system in SWTOR is set up, with all the stats interacting, makes it hard to pin down soft caps . There are few abilities where you can say "now this is suddenly less useful" - maybe accuracy taking hit to 100%, or alacrity cutting key abilities' cast times to the GCD. Comparing stats that are on diminishing returns curves means they don't really have soft caps.

 

The point at which you start stacking one stat for another all depends on the relative levels for that character, and given characters have a range of abilities affected by different stats, precisely which ones they use. Quite elegant really. If you stack enough power, it becomes more valuable to switch to crit, theoretically even surge. But precisely when depends on those stat's levels, and as you stack one stat it makes the others more powerful. If you're min-maxing, you need to continually balance the benefit one point of any stat would give.

 

That's just in damage output and before trying to consider (valid) arguments about effects of mitgation and healing.

Edited by Wainamoinen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wrote a post pointing out people are using terms like "soft cap" without apparently knowing what they mean, which if you'll pardon my British, made their points less useful.

 

But then I realised there was probably no point.

 

The way the combat system in SWTOR is set up, with all the stats interacting, makes it hard to pin down soft caps . There are few abilities where you can say "now this is suddenly less useful" - maybe accuracy taking hit to 100%, or alacrity cutting key abilities' cast times to the GCD. Comparing stats that are on diminishing returns curves means they don't really have soft caps.

 

The point at which you start stacking one stat for another all depends on the relative levels for that character, and given characters have a range of abilities affected by different stats, precisely which ones they use. Quite elegant really. If you stack enough power, it becomes more valuable to switch to crit, theoretically even surge. But precisely when depends on those stat's levels, and as you stack one stat it makes the others more powerful. If you're min-maxing, you need to continually balance the benefit one point of any stat would give.

 

That's just in damage output and before trying to consider (valid) arguments about effects of mitgation and healing.

 

A Softcap is a theoretical border, that upon reaching it is rewarding optimal performance for a given task by reaching a certain value.

If you decrease that value or increase it, the performance starts to become suboptimal.

 

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-659.html

 

Comparing DR curves matters in this game because you lose out on stats when you gain one stat. For example, stacking surge past 75% means you'll get less of some other stat which might be more useful, and the DR on surge past 75% is harsh.

 

But as for expertise, there is no point at which getting more expertise becomes suboptimal (at least in current gear levels) for pvp unless you just want to duel.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Read the second post in the thread you linked, by the moderator. He's making my point.

 

Highlight (my bold):

 

The sticky point for me is that when most people say "softcap", they mean a universal one. Example, "For Sorcerers, stack surge until the softcap at 90% crit multiplier, then stack Power". This literally cannot be done for SWTOR due to the DR scaling and inter-relation of the stats.

 

Then

 

I'm beginning to think that use of the term "softcap" on these fora should be a bannable offense. Every time a non-theorycrafter sees the term "softcap," it reinforces the belief that there are static caps that they should be trying to achieve with their stats.

 

There aren't softcaps like for other games, due to the nature of the combat system calculations in SWTOR, which is what I was trying to get at.

 

There is still a lot of decent information on that site, it's where I lifted the equations and weights to make my own spreadsheets for gear choices (which are correct as far as I can tell).

Edited by Wainamoinen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Read the second post in the thread you linked, by the moderator. He's making my point.

 

Highlight (my bold):

 

 

 

Then

 

 

 

There aren't softcaps like for other games, due to the nature of the combat system calculations in SWTOR, which is what I was trying to get at.

 

There is still a lot of decent information on that site, it's where I lifted the equations and weights to make my own spreadsheets for gear choices (which are correct as far as I can tell).

 

I found this to be most applicable for TOR. It's on the 2nd page.

 

Hardcap - you can not increase stat after this number, even if you increase gear with that stat

 

Softcap - you can increase your stat above this number, but it does not have noticeable effect anymore

 

Stat values/weights - what is value of each stat, usually compared to your primary stat

 

This is why DR on stats is important when talking about "soft caps" in TOR.

Edited by Smashbrother
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know there is a graphic on the internet about the diminishing return of all stats but I cant remember where. But I can give you the overall knowledge about Expertise vs other stats.

 

If you are a full time pugger its better to stack a lot of expertise (1300+) if you do ranked with awesome healers stack around 1100-1200 expertise and go main stat or power after (main stat's diminishing return is around 1600 if I'm not mistaken)

 

there is no deminishing return for main stat whatsoever. expertice also has a very negligable deminishing return

 

here is the current DR for expertise.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/02/expertise-breakfast-of-champions/

 

and for main stat's increase to critical chance return.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/03/calculating-critical-hit-chance/

 

 

basicaly for PvP Expertise is the only stat you need. so stack is as much as you can and then just itemize your gear acording to that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I found this to be most applicable for TOR. It's on the 2nd page.

 

Hardcap - you can not increase stat after this number, even if you increase gear with that stat

 

Softcap - you can increase your stat above this number, but it does not have noticeable effect anymore

 

Stat values/weights - what is value of each stat, usually compared to your primary stat

 

This is why DR on stats is important when talking about "soft caps" in TOR.

Actually, I'd disagree with those as incorrect.

 

Hardcap: increasing a stat beyond this level confers zero benefit (i.e. you CAN increase a stat past hardcap, it's simply useless to do so).

 

Softcap: a level beyond which, due to some game mechanic, the benefit of a stat drops off (making it more effective to swtich to stacking something else).

 

These are the generally accepted definitions of the terms. Anyone using "softcap" to refer to say, expertise, either a) doesn't know what the word means; b) doesn't understand the SWTOR combat system (Accuracy, possibly Alacrity, could see a softcap in SWTOR). Which is why I sigh internally pretty much every time I see someone talking about expertise on this forum.

 

It does mean that all those people arguing with you that there is some "softcap" to expertise are whistling out of their behinds. It doesn't mean going max expertise is always the most effective strategy (though it may be).

 

The most-efficient result you should aim for is that the marginal benefit of increasing each alternative stat is the same. Unfortunately for easy answers (so fortunately for avoiding cookie-cutter builds, yay to that), in SWTOR changing one stat then changes the marginal benefit of a pile of alternative stats. This means each individual's mileage will vary with their char's stats.

 

Having said all that, each stat has its DR curve, and you can give general advice about which tends to be strongest, scoundrels pick cunning over power, how much accuracy to set for a spec, or that there's no point stacking surge high because it quickly reaches near to its maximum benefit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...