I agree with the severity of the republic's state right now but besides some minor issues the empire is just high political corruption, power just keeps changing hands as people try to overthrow others

There is no peace only passion- Sith code

As a whole, the OP's points are logical and well thought out but...

But this is a game. Furthermore, it's an MMO. Not only you're playing, but thousands of people are playing with you, going through the same content.

For example, the personal history on your character may be that he/she crushed the resistance on Balmorra or cleared out the tombs on Korriban or whatever, but other, lower-level, players have to go through the same content after you're done and gone. So it looks like the worlds are devastated by constant stupid conflicts that will never end. But as far as your character's history and lore are concerned, he/she was successful.

It requires a suspension of disbelief, I know. Right now I'm hunting down the datacrons of all the planets I've been on so far, and I simply ignore the fact that nothing has changed even though my Sith Warrior supposedly had a impact on those worlds.

It's pretty much the same as the companions - it's pretty silly to think that every Smuggler out there has a male wookiee warrior on their side, or that every Sith Warrior has a female Twi'lek ex-slave, but if you overthink it, the whole thing would fall apart and immersion goes out of the airlock.

In the end, it's just a game.

Oh I completely get the "it's a game" argument, and I'm not saying that these things detract from the gaming experience. Quite the contrary--I'm loving this game! I just thought it was a fun thought-experiment to shoehorn the Republic and Empire into real-world political categories. Obviously it wouldn't be much of a game if there was nothing for us to do, but I think the astropolitics (geopolitics but bigger is astropolitics, right?) of the Star Wars universe is fun to play around in!

So do the different problems between the Republic and the Empire translate into qualitatively different political powers? Is the bureaucratic breakdown of the Republic better or worse than the crippling corruption within the Empire? Is that even a question worth asking?

Remember, this is all for story/lore/food for thought!

The thing is that all the astropolitics here are built around the premesis that this is a game in which thousands of player need to go through content.

In reality, it's ridiculous that there can be a constantly burning slave revolt so close to Kaas City, considering that Dromund Kaas is the headquarters of the Imperial Army and the seat of power of the Dark Council. But the Sith Empire's ineadequacy to deal with the insurgency is born entirely from the need to give the Imperial players content to go through.

A possible lore explanation for it is that

Alricka, I think you're right. The game does provide an in-universe explanation (which is more what I'm looking for in this thread) for why the revolt (and Lord Grathan) continue.

As for the player's impact, I think the best way to realize this is by going to other planets as opposite factions. Specifically, I am thinking of Balmorra. Balmorra for the Republic is clearly in existence as a result of Imperial characters' actions. That's the only planet I've spent time on as both factions so far, but I gather that Taris is similar in the factional sequence. That's the only in-game way to see the in-universe effects of characters on the environment (though it's kind of a cheat).

I cannot recall at the moment, but do any of these capitals-in-chaos quests give you a sense that the problem has been going on for a while? Or does your character just show up at the right time to shut down some nascent rebellions/infrastructural problems?

Hello everyone,

We have recently removed a number of posts using modern real-world political comparisons to illustrate and clarify in-game political storylines.

While we understand that these are only comparisons and not political judgments, due to the volatile nature of modern real-world political discussions, they are inappropriate for the forums.

Please keep the discussion related only to in-game happenings in Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ and avoid using modern real-world politics as a comparison. (The FFP scale is alright as long as it is used without mention of any real-world political situations, states, or countries.)

Thank you for your understanding.

As for the player's impact, I think the best way to realize this is by going to other planets as opposite factions. Specifically, I am thinking of Balmorra. Balmorra for the Republic is clearly in existence as a result of Imperial characters' actions. That's the only planet I've spent time on as both factions so far, but I gather that Taris is similar in the factional sequence. That's the only in-game way to see the in-universe effects of characters on the environment (though it's kind of a cheat).

I haven't yet gone to Balmorra as a Republic player, but with my Sith Warrior (who is my main character) the whole world story was focused on me crushing the rebellion. I dealt with it very decisively and in-lore it simply shouldn't exist anymore.

The only way I can swallow this is if the Republic's story on Balmorra happens after the events on the Empire's side and you try to rekindle the flames that the Imperial players put down.

I cannot recall at the moment, but do any of these capitals-in-chaos quests give you a sense that the problem has been going on for a while? Or does your character just show up at the right time to shut down some nascent rebellions/infrastructural problems?

I've played through Dromund Kaas some time ago, so I can't be 100 % sure, but the slave revolt and Lord Grathan's tiny rebellion are presented as relatively recent events. Considering that Baras had a spy in Grathan's household, I'd say that he has manipulated the events for a while but his plans bore fruit not long before the Imperial players arrive on the planet. Don't forget that Baras is quite the puppetmaster.

As for Coruscant, I'm going through it right now with my Smuggler alt and the feel is like the problems there are festering wounds caused mainly by the war and Malgus' raid. The whole thing there is about dealing with the aftermath of a huge and horrible battle. The criminal organizations that run rampant have probably always been existant, but the local police forces probably kept them in check. Now, even years after Malgus' attack, the whole infrastructure is wrecked, corruption reigns supreme and guys like the Black Sun gang are like vultures swooping over the dying beast. With Coruscant, I feel like I face problems that have been there longer than those on Dromund Kaas.

Coruscant certainly feels more teetering than its counterpart. Mind you, the problem there is that the Republic can't bring force to bear against Coruscant, in the way that the Empire could against Dromund Kaas.

Coruscant is, to at least some extent, rather based on Asimov's Trantor, and there, that point is fairly explicitly made (by Chetter Hummin [no spoilers please, just in case ] I believe)- and the same conditions apply.

Coruscant is an enormously complex, highly mechanised, heavily populated planet which is very much in the public eye.

If the Republic applied the level of bulk military intervention needed to exterminate the Migrant Merchants' Guild, Black Sun, and Justicars (and in the latter case, force them at gunpoint to get a name which didn't sound like a taxi firm and/or a euphemism for somewhere a smuggler might kick you)... then a) the planetary infrastructure itself would probably get critically damaged in the fighting, and b) it would be all over the media. Senator Kayl might well regret a hefty media investigation into just how come said Guild got established in the first place, to pick just one specific example, and the Republic itself, coming at a time when they presumably have a lot of recruiting drives going on along the lines of "Join up/support us in our fight to defend ourselves against the totalitarian evil empire" would definitely not appreciate news footage flying around the galaxy of "Republic troops stomp poor people into the ground on capital world!" etc.

For the Republic, on Coruscant, a 'softly, softly' approach is the only way- hence they defend positions, gather evidence, try to keep the yobbery in check and 'below decks' where important people won't see it... until they acquire a suitable "Black Bisector" as the Gree would put it, an agent who they can quietly and only semi-officially prime and send in to pull the rug out from under the entrenched troublemakers. That's you, that is, Player ;D

I agree, the Sith's "Oh look, we've got rebellious slaves just outside our city... so? It'll annoy the Intelligence Service and make pretty fire and give us some targets to kill, all good!" attitude *is* detrimental to the Empire... though I doubt if the scenario of Havoc Squad being dropped in to take advantage of it is a real danger. For one thing, thanks to the Player's investigations, the Sith know that the rebels are being distorted by their primitive cult of self-imagined sith ideals, which, if left to mature, certain Sith could almost certainly seize and turn to their own ends... possibly to purge the "ordinary people" of Kaas City, if they grew tiresome. For another, the slaves really aren't that powerful... the problem is that the Imperial Army are, frankly, largely hopeless. Understandably, since their officer elite is an un-cooperative mix of rich idiots on the one hand, and Intelligence Officers who are very capable... but would really, really, far rather order their troops to exterminate the Sith if they thought they could get away with it and didn't think it would be unforgivably unprofessional, on the other.

There's a reason the Sith typically consider the army to be useless cattle and cannon fodder, just as there's a reason the army- and more importantly, Intelligence- consider the Sith to be a rabid embarrassment who shouldn't be let out in public unless they've been thoroughly housetrained first.

The Empire *is* deeply dysfunctional. The Republic is largely paralysed, to a considerable extent, and the two factors are why, ironically, the upcoming war simply doesn't need to be fought- from the Republic's point of view, anyway. All they need to do is hold the Empire, balance them. Opposing the Empire too strongly would rally them together. Give the Empire stability and stalemate for much longer, and it would fly apart in all directions with very little effort from the Republic.

I think it is good pointing out that yes, the Republic does have certain restraints on its actions that the Empire does not. As Rowan pointed out, the Republic has to consider its public image before acting. In fact, I might argue that the Republic is using the best tools in its arsenal for minimizing damage to its brand: Extensive use of the SIS (they're on like every planet!) and private contractors who can color outside the lines, so to speak. By playing things defensively and gathering information, the Republic enables itself to circumvent the bureaucracy on many of the more serious issues.

The Empire, on the other hand, has many more options than the Republic when it comes to dealing with crises. The fact that they're not cracking down on these rebellions (though they can) definitely bespeaks the lack of cooperation among the elites. There's even a degree of competition between rank-and-file commanders. They are the only ones holding themselves back by betraying and undermining each other.

What's better? A series of self-generated but damaging crises or an inability or reluctance to respond to external threats?

And yes, Alicka, Republican Balmorra has the player rekindling the resistance--in a nutshell.

edit: I had such a beautifully worded essay written here when the internet screwed up and I had to attempt to recreate it from scratch

I thought about this, actually--that each planet is represented in its entirety, just not to scale. I don't buy into it, though. Maybe for some of the planets, but overall I don't think any of them is really the entire planet.

 

That said, I admit that I like the idea of some distance compression to make each planet more playable and practical. Plus it helps explain away most of these issues of proximity to the seat of power--if the Gangs control an entire quadrant of the planet a hemisphere away, then it's much more reasonable that the Republic Military can't quash them (with or without civilian casualties).

I agree that distance is partly scaled (otherwise, as mentioned, these are super-tiny galactic capitals) but also planets are not entirely shown (hence a reference...I think on Balmorra, that 'pubs are being brought from one of the "other continents").

Regarding the original question posed, many astute points have been made. I will only contribute by taking a step backward to note: Isn't it more of a shock that any one or two governments encompassing thousands of star systems is anything but a completely failed state? Given the cultural similarities between SW and RL, an enormous suspension of disbelief seems in order even for that.*

* (by which I mean everything from the sheer logistics of maintaining political and military control that far out from the home territories to accomodating the incredible amount of diversity that would have to exist)

I haven't yet gone to Balmorra as a Republic player, but with my Sith Warrior (who is my main character) the whole world story was focused on me crushing the rebellion. I dealt with it very decisively and in-lore it simply shouldn't exist anymore.

The only way I can swallow this is if the Republic's story on Balmorra happens after the events on the Empire's side and you try to rekindle the flames that the Imperial players put down.

Back on topic though,

I agree that distance is partly scaled (otherwise, as mentioned, these are super-tiny galactic capitals) but also planets are not entirely shown (hence a reference...I think on Balmorra, that 'pubs are being brought from one of the "other continents").

 

Regarding the original question posed, many astute points have been made. I will only contribute by taking a step backward to note: Isn't it more of a shock that any one or two governments encompassing thousands of star systems is anything but a completely failed state? Given the cultural similarities between SW and RL, an enormous suspension of disbelief seems in order even for that.*

 

* (by which I mean everything from the sheer logistics of maintaining political and military control that far out from the home territories to accomodating the incredible amount of diversity that would have to exist)

Well, by the time of the Romans, the Assyrians probably would have thought that controlling that amount of land, and that amount of diverse, warlike people in one Empire (heck, Italy was made up of a number of nations before Rome became an Empire!) was insane! Then, the Romans would have thought that the Spanish Colonial Empire was impossible as well. Then, the Spaniards must have wondered how America could keep control of so much land and so much diversity. The answer? Advancement in technology.

Because technology is more advanced in Star Wars, there are presumably ways to use said technology to effectively govern. Either that, or we can sustain disbelief and let ourselves be immersed in the story.

I have no idea if anyone will read this but my two cents.

First the republics member each have control over there own sphere influence. As far as I know Coruscant is only one world, and happens to be the capital - because its at the center of the galaxy and wealth. That capital does change time to time.

As for the sith empire, I was given the idea that they do not really see the slaves as a threat. They sacked the jedi temple, a band of slave campers seems a bit below them

Cato and Guildrum make good points about the importance of scale but I think that Guildrum hit it on the head by pointing out the greatly increased technological efficiency of such an advanced society. Just as modern empires have been able to more effectively control larger territories compared to their ancient predecessors, so to would this effect scale up with greater technology. Light-speed and real-time holocommunication across lightyears would make the administration of such far-flung polities much more feasible.

Does that mean that the Republic and Empire might be blinded to local problems by the extent to which they must concern themselves with galaxy-wide issues?

Gavin, I believe the Republic does have a great deal of federal authority. I'm under the impression that while systems do have some internal independence, their interstellar politics and galaxy-wide policies are determined by a centralized authority based on Coruscant. I'm unaware of any times at which the capital was not Coruscant, but that doesn't mean it could change. After all, the Jedi relocated to Tython, why couldn't the Senate do likewise? I think you're thinking of the Republic as more of a Confederacy whereas I view it as more of a Federation. Thoughts?

As to the Empire, they ruined the Jedi Temple ten years ago and, perhaps, have become complacent? They beat the Republic pretty soundly but were unable to inflict a truly crushing defeat on them. In militant totalitarian dictatorships, this could be psychologically received as a loss--at least subconsciously. That would certainly impact their effectiveness at controlling their own territory as they would have a nagging doubt as to their own abilities. Additionally, as you mentioned, Gavin, and as others before you have also mentioned (I believe), the powers that matter remain focused on bigger issues as may very well be the case with the Republic.

Are both neglecting the seemingly small, overlookable (yet somehow crucial to their survival [because the player needs something to do]) crises in favor of macro-level strategy and planning?

If I'm not mistaken, Vitiate doesn't get off his *** unless it's a credible threat against him, or the entire Empire.

Content to stay in his bedroom doing rituals he is.