.

 

This discussion involves strategies and ideals that pertain to Huttball.

 

 

Do individuals and teams ever consider the paths they generally take when trying to maneuver the ball and progress it forward up the map to score? Generally most teams and players will attempt to get the ball and make a direct beeline to the endzone without even realizing that there are major repercussions that could be dispelled if another route were to be explored.

 

 

Majority of the time in Huttball, teams will progress the ball up either side of the map. Highly predictable. When you can predict something; you evaluate the situation and make moves in order to negate the positive scenarios for the enemy team.

 

 

As the ball carrying team, you want to be unpredictable. This will force the other team to have to stop a ball-run that is unpredictable; not a very easy task for the defending team.

 

 

> Assassins and Powertechs will be out of position when trying to initiate fire pulls.

 

> All classes with an AoE knock back will be more likely be out of position to properly utilize this skill.

 

> Defending team will be forced to deal with variable LoS issues and harder angles for effective fire pulls and general knock backs.

 

> The team trying to stop the ball-run is always going to be piled up on the side of the map that the ball is on, capitalize on this fact. ( Who runs from the spawn point to the oppsitie side that the ball is on, think about it. This is similar to capitalizing on teams who overload to a part of the map in Novare Coast, Civil War, and Voidstar. )

 

 

Changing elevation whilst taking a diagonal route to the endzone is the most effective ball-run.

 

Running the ball straight up the side of the map will be countered by a competent team more often than not.

 

 

Depict and discuss some effective ways to traverse diagonally to the end zone.

 

> Classes and specs involved?

> Why does it make it harder on the opposing team to stop the ball-run?

> Elevation changes involved?

> Are there angles, structures, LoS problems that the defending team must now deal with?

 

 

Running the ball up the side of the map will obviously end up resulting in a score at times, I am not saying that does not work. But just because something works sometimes, does not mean it is the best and most effective method or strategy to deploy. You should not have to depend on the other team messing up or being overall incompetent; you should always attempt to use high level strategies even when they are not always required to gain the desired result.

 

 

 

TLDR - In Rateds and Regular matches it should be the norm that teams traverse the ball diagonally up the map instead of a beeline towards the end zone. At this point in time, teams will run straight up the sides of the map in an attempt to score the ball; thus making things incredulously easy for the defending team to set up and take the ball back via fire pulls, knock backs into fire, stuns in the fire, force charge & knock backs for the ball steal, etc. Diagonal routes impress LoS issues and harder angles upon the defending team for fire pulls and dps in general. Diagonal routes punish the defending team for overloading to one side of the map. In both Rateds and Regulars everyone spawns and runs to the side that the ball in on, essentially overloading; which should be capitalized on just like in any other war zone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post #9

 

Why u need "sides" and "routes".

 

It is no-brainer actually, jugg/guard jumps to the pit and hides inside 4 - pillar to avoid fire pull. When someone shows at the edge, he either charges or intercedes, depends on friend or foe.

 

If fire pulled after jump on edge, sorc/sage saves him, or he just uses hard mitigation CDs and then medpack.

 

What route, what side?

 

 

 

The strategy you reference is not bad, it is more successful than running straight up the side of the map.

 

Unfortunately, it is still a very predictable in the sense that the defending team usually has ample opportunity so set up defenses in the form of knock backs and fire pulls; especially fire pulls. That strategy is very apt to end up in a fire pull death.

 

 

-----------------------------------

 

 

Although, I could expand on your strategy for you; making it somewhat fail-proof.

 

Typically the Jugg will intercede to anybody and everybody that he can, to get to the end zone. This, like I already said, usually ends up in a fire pull death.

 

How to make it fail-proof? (Essentially)

 

Since any competent team will not let the enemy Jugg w/ the ball jump to them in the end zone; have an Assassin get in the end zone and pull someone for the Jugg to jump to, then immediately sprint towards the end zone for the Jugg to intercede to.

 

Pretty simple tactic, but very effective because it allows the defenders very little time to stop the score; the Jugg can move ~40 meters in ~2 seconds with this. If the Jugg is good; he will also have the aptitude to change stances to Shien Form for the 4 seconds of immunity after the Force Charge, thus making the intercede to the Assassin guaranteed.

 

 

-----------------------------------

 

 

Simple tactics like this go un-used in SWTOR. Sure a team will do this once in a blue moon, but they do not make a point of it to do things and experiment with things like this on a regular basis - game to game. Teams are content with making low skill cap moves ( interceding to anyone in the end zone with hopes that the other team won't stop it, so they just say ok I'll intercede and walk to the end zone and if they fire pull me that is just a cheap move! ) and sit with low team synergy ( not expanding a strategy past the interceding to any teammate part; you can plan to have coordinated CC right as the Jugg jumps, specifically find and eliminate or CC any Assassins and PT's on the opposing team to negate fire pulls before the Jugg intercedes, or develop and carry out a strategy just like I had mentioned ) because they can get away with it in Regulars and also in Rateds because there isn't a team out there that forces all other teams to expand on their strategy, awareness, and team synergy.

 

.

 

 

Post #?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will be providing 'videos w/ commentary' of Huttball that visually display what is in my mind; only if this thread is shown some support, otherwise I'm not going to waste the time. Please comment with intentions of contributing to the discussion.

 

~Poly

 

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Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

Voice chat would be nice.

 

Player 1 : "Hey dude I am standing on your right here in stealth" "Pass ! Pass ! Pass !"

Ballcarrier : "How do I pass ?"

Player 1 : "Omg you nub, you haven't binded it !!" "Press P and go to general you see the Throw the hutball ability"

*2 min later with full resolve beeing healed by 3 healers who don't have a microphone typing in chat all kinds of nonsense to run ahead but wich nobody reads*

Ballcarrier : "Ok I got it " *Throws ball to Player 1"

....

....

ex-Ballcarrier : "Why didn't you unstealth !!!!"

Player 1 : Omg !!! Why didn' t you say you were going to pass !!! Ah jeezes !!

Player 1 has left the game.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Jorojus

Voice chat would be nice.

 

Player 1 : "Hey dude I am standing on your right here in stealth" "Pass ! Pass ! Pass !"

Ballcarrier : "How do I pass ?"

Player 1 : "Omg you nub, you haven't binded it !!" "Press P and go to general you see the Throw the hutball ability"

*2 min later with full resolve beeing healed by 3 healers who don't have a microphone typing in chat all kinds of nonsense to run ahead but wich nobody reads*

Ballcarrier : "Ok I got it " *Throws ball to Player 1"

....

....

ex-Ballcarrier : "Why didn't you unstealth !!!!"

Player 1 : Omg !!! Why didn' t you say you were going to pass !!! Ah jeezes !!

Player 1 has left the game.

 

Not on topic; but true nonetheless. No telling how many times this seriously happens every day.

Well I have seen many people take the unexpected route to the endzone. They grab the ball and run all the way to wrong endzone while people are screaming at them in chat. So taking the unexpected route isn't always better. That being said I try to go the route where the snipers cant spam me with leg shot.

 

Rellik

 

When I say unexpected, I do not mean you should do something stupid. I mean that you should do something that is harder for the opposing team to negate.

 

I use the word unexpected because it is expected these days for a team to be content to run the ball up the side of the map and expect to have no repercussions for doing so. Running straight up the side of the map allows the defending team to set up a defense to negate the ball-run rather easily.

 

 

 

Leg shot - so you're telling me there are snipers that use Leg Shot objectively, instead of just for their own defense to help secure their own survivability? You do know that the guy with the highest damage at the end of the game, is the best and plays at a really high level of game play; and influenced the outcome of the game the most, right?

Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

When I say unexpected, I do not mean you should do something stupid. I mean that you should do something that is harder for the opposing team to negate.

 

I use the word unexpected because it is expected these days for a team to be content to run the ball up the side of the map and expect to have no repercussions for doing so. Running straight up the side of the map allows the defending team to set up a defense to negate the ball-run rather easily.

 

 

 

Leg shot - so you're telling me there are snipers that use Leg Shot objectively, instead of just for their own defense to help secure their own survivability? You do know that the guy with the highest damage at the end of the game, is the best and plays at a really high level of game play; and influenced the outcome of the game the most, right?

 

I know I like to troll when I'm bored before going to sleep.

I would think ball carriers fear fire pulls the most, so their path to the endzone should be one that avoids areas you could be pulled, unless a team did like a double pull ping pong style into a fire pit. It seems really hard to kill a ball carrier without the fire traps, so i'm guessing knowing where the enemy pullers are at all time and avoiding their LOS would be number one priority.

Why u need "sides" and "routes".

 

It is no-brainer actually, jugg/guard jumps to the pit and hides inside 4 - pillar to avoid fire pull. When someone shows at the edge, he either charges or intercedes, depends on friend or foe.

 

If fire pulled after jump on edge, sorc/sage saves him, or he just uses hard mitigation CDs and then medpack.

 

What route, what side?

Why u need "sides" and "routes".

 

It is no-brainer actually, jugg/guard jumps to the pit and hides inside 4 - pillar to avoid fire pull. When someone shows at the edge, he either charges or intercedes, depends on friend or foe.

 

If fire pulled after jump on edge, sorc/sage saves him, or he just uses hard mitigation CDs and then medpack.

 

What route, what side?

 

If fire-pulling was the only problem, sure. I actually really appreciate Poly's post, unfortunately I think it needs a team that understands the diagonal route in regards to positioning for passing, etc., or it can still be countered oftentimes simply by those who are respawning, etc. It certainly would give at least a moderate advantage however. I like it.

Why u need "sides" and "routes".

 

It is no-brainer actually, jugg/guard jumps to the pit and hides inside 4 - pillar to avoid fire pull. When someone shows at the edge, he either charges or intercedes, depends on friend or foe.

 

If fire pulled after jump on edge, sorc/sage saves him, or he just uses hard mitigation CDs and then medpack.

 

What route, what side?

 

 

 

The strategy you reference is not bad, it is more successful than running straight up the side of the map.

 

Unfortunately, it is still a very predictable in the sense that the defending team usually has ample opportunity so set up defenses in the form of knock backs and fire pulls; especially fire pulls. That strategy is very apt to end up in a fire pull death.

 

 

-----------------------------------

 

 

Although, I could expand on your strategy for you; making it somewhat fail-proof.

 

Typically the Jugg will intercede to anybody and everybody that he can, to get to the end zone. This, like I already said, usually ends up in a fire pull death.

 

How to make it fail-proof? (Essentially)

 

Since any competent team will not let the enemy Jugg w/ the ball jump to them in the end zone; have an Assassin get in the end zone and pull someone for the Jugg to jump to, then immediately sprint towards the end zone for the Jugg to intercede to.

 

Pretty simple tactic, but very effective because it allows the defenders very little time to stop the score; the Jugg can move ~40 meters in ~2 seconds with this. If the Jugg is good; he will also have the aptitude to change stances to Shien Form for the 4 seconds of immunity after the Force Charge, thus making the intercede to the Assassin guaranteed.

 

 

-----------------------------------

 

 

Simple tactics like this go un-used in SWTOR. Sure a team will do this once in a blue moon, but they do not make a point of it to do things and experiment with things like this on a regular basis - game to game. Teams are content with making low skill cap moves ( interceding to anyone in the end zone with hopes that the other team won't stop it, so they just say ok I'll intercede and walk to the end zone and if they fire pull me that is just a cheap move! ) and sit with low team synergy ( not expanding a strategy past the interceding to any teammate part; you can plan to have coordinated CC right as the Jugg jumps, specifically find and eliminate or CC any Assassins and PT's on the opposing team to negate fire pulls before the Jugg intercedes, or develop and carry out a strategy just like I had mentioned ) because they can get away with it in Regulars and also in Rateds because there isn't a team out there that forces all other teams to expand on their strategy, awareness, and team synergy.

 

.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

If fire-pulling was the only problem, sure. I actually really appreciate Poly's post, unfortunately I think it needs a team that understands the diagonal route in regards to positioning for passing, etc., or it can still be countered oftentimes simply by those who are respawning, etc. It certainly would give at least a moderate advantage however. I like it.

 

"It certainly would give at least a moderate advantage however. I like it."

 

Exactly.

 

And I find it to be very sad that the community in this game rarely even acknowledges anything that actually breaks away from the monotony in this game, like exploring and experimenting with high skill cap ideals; they usually dismiss it for reasons like you said - "it requires team synergy".

Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

I would think ball carriers fear fire pulls the most, so their path to the endzone should be one that avoids areas you could be pulled, unless a team did like a double pull ping pong style into a fire pit. It seems really hard to kill a ball carrier without the fire traps, so i'm guessing knowing where the enemy pullers are at all time and avoiding their LOS would be number one priority.

 

 

 

Good post. You can do much better than 'trying' to avoid the LOS of enemy pullers, though.

 

> Mark all Assassins and PT's.

> When running the ball - your entire team's target priority should revolve around CC'ing and stalling these enemy pullers; stopping them from getting a fire pull. You'll want to CC/stall all enemies, but you and your team should target these enemy pullers in particular.

 

> A stunned/mezzed enemy puller, cannot pull.

> An enemy puller that is out of position due to being stalled for so long, or because they themselves were pulled away from range and location; cannot initiate a fire pull.

> An enemy puller that has been knocked into the pit cannot initiate a fire pull.

> An enemy puller that has lost LOS due to being knocked back and rooted cannot initiate a fire pull.

 

Make it a priority to be aware of the position of enemy pullers, and attempt to negate their ability to fire pull the ball carrier. Do this, instead of just running around haphazardly; you could really influence the game.

 

Next time you're in a Huttball and your team gets the ball - try to make it your first thought. Think, where are those bastard enemy pullers; and act on it. Even though the results will not show on the scoreboard, you should feel much more rewarded about your actions knowing that you actually had a thought process and it yielded results. ( versus the endless monotony of running around dps'ing/healing without actually really influencing anything )

Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

Me, I avoid the ball if possible, simply because I don't know how to throw it.

 

I tried it twice, but with not much success. Once, the one I passed to immediately died, the second time I threw into the direction of a team member who was gone then.

 

Since then, I'm trying my best to avoid it and to cripple the enemy team as much as possible (especially their ball carrier).

 

I just know that I'll suck at throwing a ball - so I avoid it.

Me, I avoid the ball if possible, simply because I don't know how to throw it.

 

I tried it twice, but with not much success. Once, the one I passed to immediately died, the second time I threw into the direction of a team member who was gone then.

 

Since then, I'm trying my best to avoid it and to cripple the enemy team as much as possible (especially their ball carrier).

 

I just know that I'll suck at throwing a ball - so I avoid it.

 

Lmao. I'm afraid this discussion is a little out of your league, no offense.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Polymerize

Me, I avoid the ball if possible, simply because I don't know how to throw it.

 

NEWBIE CORNER:

If you have not played a class with a ranged AoE ability it can be completely mystifying. Got to the GTN, buy a few grenades, toss them around on fleet (or in PvE). That will teach you the ranged AoE basic technique.

 

In short, activating the ability (e.g. grenade, or huttball toss) gives you an AoE targeting cursor (green circle on the ground). Move this cursor with your mouse and click to throw.

 

Alternatively, roll a command / bounty hunter and level him up to level 10. You get mortar volley / death from above and can practice ranged AoE targeting for free.

 

Trying to practice throwing the huttball when you are being stunned and beat on by 6 players is hard way to learn a new mechanic.

Me, I avoid the ball if possible, simply because I don't know how to throw it.

 

I tried it twice, but with not much success. Once, the one I passed to immediately died, the second time I threw into the direction of a team member who was gone then.

 

Since then, I'm trying my best to avoid it and to cripple the enemy team as much as possible (especially their ball carrier).

 

I just know that I'll suck at throwing a ball - so I avoid it.

 

Its pretty simple really put your cursor on the player you want to pas to, make sure you keybinded the ability and press the keybind combination. If you are stunned, spam the keybind combination while holding the cursor on the player you want to pass too.

Enough about the incredulously noobie information.

 

Does anyone have anything intriguing, intuitive, and insightful to bring to the table? Jesus Christ.

Hutball depends mostly about individual minds, each player thinking for himself where would be the best place to be and anticipate 2 steps ahead of your enemies / ballcarier.

 

No ops leader can continuously say to 7 people what to do in a hutball game besides giving someone the specific job to keep certain specific players in the enemy team out of the game or to provide focus targets.

 

The faster you think and act and the more players you got in your team who think and act fast while knowing what they can do with their classes and use their abilities when they have too the less "tactics" you'll have to make.

Its not American football where the game has a standstill and everyone can think of the following tactic.

 

Hutball happens so fast you can work with an opening tactic, wich will only work if you get the ball first. Besides that its all about outsmarting the enemy and anticipating on situations before they happen.

 

I could make a sum up for each class what, where and when to use their abilities, but aint nobody got time for that.

 

Its like making a puzzle, some classes got a pull, you got a firepit, what do you do ? Firepits, some ballcarriers are stupid enough to run over them without their resolve bar filled, what do you do ? People with resolve can still be rooted by certain abilities. There is a player standing on the goalline, do I intercede to him or pass to him , wich is the best option seeing that enemy warrior standing there just looking at him ...

Edited June 10, 2013 by Jorojus

I like that "cc pullers" part.

 

How about: "One does not simply pull unstealthed being assasin/shadow" part

I like that "cc pullers" part.

 

How about: "One does not simply pull unstealthed being assasin/shadow" part

 

Your message was somewhat cryptic so I'll that you meant to say this: How do you CC/hinder an enemy puller who is an Assassin who is stealthed, in other words you cannot see him so how can you stop him?

 

 

 

Well first off I think the obvious thing to say is yes, it is much more difficult to stop an Assassin from getting off a fire pull compared to a PT; regardless of whether he is stealthed or not.

 

So how can you stop an Assassin from fire pulling your ball carrier? Let us think about this, visualize; then implement into our gameplay.

 

Disclaimer: nothing is a cure all, expect to not always be successful in your endeavors. Some Assassins are more crafty than others, and luck can be on either of your sides.

 

First you always want to do in Huttball, as I have already mentioned; is to mark all PT's and Assassins. As soon as you see them you need to mark them. When your ball carrier is running the ball you'll know exactly go you should be CC'ing/stalling first.

 

If you mark an Assassin as the 'Star' and you look around the map 2 minutes later and you do not see the 'Star', you can assume that he is stealthed. This seems like a derpy kind of fact but it is very helpful in your thought process as you play the game. It is helpful to mark stealthers in all warzones, not just Huttball.

 

Scenario: Your team just grabbed the ball from mid and is now running the ball up the right side ramp. You look around for the 'Star' and you do not see him. What do you think? At this point you put yourself into the Assassin's mind. Where would it be most beneficial to be? Where did you see the Assassin last? Do you see a Phase Walk anywhere?

 

Based off where the ball carrier is located, there are only so many angles and positions that an Assassin can be in order to get off a fire pull. You have to be proactive in the sense that you need to 'check' if they are in these positions when your team has the ball and is progressing the ball up the map.

 

You can be proactive by using any AoE ability, knock back, stealth scan, and just simply -looking- around because stealthers do not always have their 'increased stealth' active.

 

Also you can be proactive by stunning/knocking back the Assassins when they try to initiate their fire pull. They use their pull, and you stop them before they stun/root your ball carrier. I cannot tell you how many times a good player has done this to me when I am trying to fire pull a ball carrier.

 

 

 

Cheers, I have more to say but back to work for me.

also: friendly pull > enemy pull because friendly pull works with full resolve while enemy pull does not. If you have 2 live sages near the ball carrier you should rarely be killed in the fire.

also: friendly pull > enemy pull because friendly pull works with full resolve while enemy pull does not. If you have 2 live sages near the ball carrier you should rarely be killed in the fire.

 

That is a fair point. I say that to say this.

 

Just as the ball running team should be attempting to negate the enemy pullers.

 

Drumroll.....

 

The enemy team should be looking out for the ball running team's sorcerers!!!

 

If you saw a friendly setting up for a fire pull you should instantly look for the ball running team's friendly pullers.

 

If you are in mumble and your bud alerts you that he is about to set up for a fire pull, you should negate the sorcerers from stopping the pull.

 

If your teammate tells you he is going to get a fire pull, why don't you go ahead and root their ball runner so he can have a better chance of getting the fire pull off?

 

For every plan/strategy/tactic that works, there is an opposing plan/strategy/tactic to stop it. It is when this game reaches the point where teams are using strategies and and tactics to negate the other team's strategies and tactics that I will truly enjoy this game. This game has not reached that point though. 'High level gameplay' is relative, I do not think it is very high at all in this game.

 

The top Rated teams today should be crushed by Rated teams 6 months from now. Especially if I have one formed by then.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Polymerize

Meh. Bump.

Someone say something intellectual.

Someone say something intellectual.

 

Too much to ask, should have known.