Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

The Game Has Improved SIGNIFIGANTLY

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
The Game Has Improved SIGNIFIGANTLY

Costello's Avatar


Costello
08.16.2019 , 01:13 AM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by XxHazenxX View Post
Uh if you're talking about a game getting lots of love, I think you've mistaken SWTOR for ESO or FFXIV... because if you take a look at the SWTOR update history, I think it shows quite the opposite. This is objectively one of the least updated modern and active MMOs on the market bud.
Yeah that sums it up pretty much.

All good to say how enjoyable the pirate event was. Though from the number of people that were pissed off over the mine quest and nearly everyone just wanted to skip as much of the 4 man heroics as possible it might be argued people didn't find it fun.

It did show very clearly though that the idea that hard content should be worth more, with group content just assumed as being harder than solo is flawed. Hell running through trash and fight Hugo was hardly in anyway difficult. Even after the change people just suicided to get to the door. They weren't rewarding people for being better or taking or more challenging content. The only real challenge with the heroics was if you actually wanted to enjoy the content and play it.

I cant remember when Ossus came out but are we looking at roughly two bits of content for the entire year. That's not love. Think what that is, is seeing how far you can stretch the loyalty of the player base and how little you can offer and they will stick around for. Turns out if the activity in game is anything to go by, not that little. But not to worry they have a plan, another gear grind cause they are still following MMO models of 10 years ago where everything is based around getting people to run Hammer Station again and again for the 8th year running to grind out gear to replace what they have already got that is now no longer fit for the level synicing content.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
08.16.2019 , 01:47 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Costello View Post
Yeah that sums it up pretty much.

All good to say how enjoyable the pirate event was. Though from the number of people that were pissed off over the mine quest and nearly everyone just wanted to skip as much of the 4 man heroics as possible it might be argued people didn't find it fun.

It did show very clearly though that the idea that hard content should be worth more, with group content just assumed as being harder than solo is flawed. Hell running through trash and fight Hugo was hardly in anyway difficult. Even after the change people just suicided to get to the door. They weren't rewarding people for being better or taking or more challenging content. The only real challenge with the heroics was if you actually wanted to enjoy the content and play it.

I cant remember when Ossus came out but are we looking at roughly two bits of content for the entire year. That's not love. Think what that is, is seeing how far you can stretch the loyalty of the player base and how little you can offer and they will stick around for. Turns out if the activity in game is anything to go by, not that little. But not to worry they have a plan, another gear grind cause they are still following MMO models of 10 years ago where everything is based around getting people to run Hammer Station again and again for the 8th year running to grind out gear to replace what they have already got that is now no longer fit for the level synicing content.
Personally, I gave up on Dantooine after the first day. Zero interest in sitting in chat, doing LFG, like it's still the early 2000s, just so I can move some arbitrary rep marker and eventually buy some decos or some other meaningless item. I would have been ok with a weekly option that gives less rewards overall and can be done solo. But nope... arbitrarily forced group heroics that aren't even integrated into a group finder tool.

MMO models of 10 years ago, indeed.
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
08.16.2019 , 04:00 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by FourPawnBenoni View Post
Let me give you a hint. Lets start with the release of 5.0 and then before 6.0 servers had to merge. You can try and pump sunshine all you want but you're out of touch with the community.

2nd hint ( since you seem to need them): a lot of players left
I'll bet ya', right now, with no access to numbers at all, that more people left in the first year than have left between the end of the first year and now. I'd also be willing to bet that it was orders of magnitude higher than what has left since 5.0 to now. I come and go all the time, releases don't have anything to do with it, burn out does. The smoke you're blowing is stinking up the place, let's give it a break.

Quote: Originally Posted by Costello View Post
Yeah that sums it up pretty much.

All good to say how enjoyable the pirate event was. Though from the number of people that were pissed off over the mine quest and nearly everyone just wanted to skip as much of the 4 man heroics as possible it might be argued people didn't find it fun.
That's "interesting". So all the people skipping parts of raids over the years, or skipping parts of FPs never found them fun either? I'm going to lay something on ya' that you need to know before you start putting "people skipped part of it, so it wasn't fun" out there: People skip parts of raids in every MMO I've played. People have been doing it for as long as there have been raids/FP type content where it can happen. It predates swtor by years.

Quote:
It did show very clearly though that the idea that hard content should be worth more, with group content just assumed as being harder than solo is flawed. Hell running through trash and fight Hugo was hardly in anyway difficult. Even after the change people just suicided to get to the door. They weren't rewarding people for being better or taking or more challenging content. The only real challenge with the heroics was if you actually wanted to enjoy the content and play it.

I cant remember when Ossus came out but are we looking at roughly two bits of content for the entire year. That's not love. Think what that is, is seeing how far you can stretch the loyalty of the player base and how little you can offer and they will stick around for. Turns out if the activity in game is anything to go by, not that little. But not to worry they have a plan, another gear grind cause they are still following MMO models of 10 years ago where everything is based around getting people to run Hammer Station again and again for the 8th year running to grind out gear to replace what they have already got that is now no longer fit for the level synicing content.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
08.16.2019 , 04:11 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
I'll bet ya', right now, with no access to numbers at all, that more people left in the first year than have left between the end of the first year and now. I'd also be willing to bet that it was orders of magnitude higher than what has left since 5.0 to now. I come and go all the time, releases don't have anything to do with it, burn out does. The smoke you're blowing is stinking up the place, let's give it a break.
Wait so because you can bet something that contradicts what he's saying, he's blowing smoke? Lolwut?

The game is down to 5 servers. That's an objective fact.

Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
that more people left in the first year than have left between the end of the first year and now. I'd also be willing to bet that it was orders of magnitude higher than what has left since 5.0 to now.
This isn't the refutation of 5.0 largely being a disaster that you think it is. It's just an ignoring of percentages to favor a particular narrative. For example, if the population was, say, 2 million at the start and went down to 500,000 in the first year, then it's now literally impossible for more to leave in the next years than in the first year, unless the population also grows enough to increase the numbers so that it can reach 1.5 million in total losses after that first year.

If you look at it in terms of percentages, that makes more sense and is more accurate. You'd want to consider what percentage of the remaining players left, not the raw number. And looking at the shutdown of servers over time is a decent way to gauge that, without having numbers available to look at the percentages on.
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
08.16.2019 , 05:20 PM | #35
I'd say without any concrete numbers, trying to analyze percentages is meaningless

Nemmar's Avatar


Nemmar
08.17.2019 , 02:09 AM | #36
Oh no! You dared to not be cynical on these forums!

And they dropped on you as expected.

Btw yes, the game is much better now than back then and i'm excited for the future. Wish it had proper expansion support like other mmo's such as ESO, FF and WoW though. But for the first time in a long time swtor seems to have a dev team with the right ideas.

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
08.17.2019 , 03:02 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
I'd say without any concrete numbers, trying to analyze percentages is meaningless
To be clear, what I was trying to say is that looking at server closure trends is probably the closest you could get to accuracy without hard numbers. You could maybe extrapolate some percentages from the number of servers closed over time. Though granted we'd have to assume a certain level of consistency in how low a server pop needs to get before they consider closing it.

But hard numbers aside, it's pretty obvious the game is at its lowest point in terms of population, at a meager 5 servers. Whether 5.0 is explicitly to blame for some of that, people can argue over the fine details of, but I'm sure there are plenty who could anecdotally testify to losing guildies or entire guilds worth of guildies - if they were still around to testify, which is part of the problem in getting anecdotal backup on this stuff... many of the people who could confirm are not here to do so.

Which is why it amuses me when people who are still here try to act like there's nothing wrong. It's sort of like saying, "Well I'm still here!" to an empty room. Not a lot of people around to challenge you...
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

robertthebard's Avatar


robertthebard
08.17.2019 , 07:27 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Rolodome View Post
To be clear, what I was trying to say is that looking at server closure trends is probably the closest you could get to accuracy without hard numbers. You could maybe extrapolate some percentages from the number of servers closed over time. Though granted we'd have to assume a certain level of consistency in how low a server pop needs to get before they consider closing it.

But hard numbers aside, it's pretty obvious the game is at its lowest point in terms of population, at a meager 5 servers. Whether 5.0 is explicitly to blame for some of that, people can argue over the fine details of, but I'm sure there are plenty who could anecdotally testify to losing guildies or entire guilds worth of guildies - if they were still around to testify, which is part of the problem in getting anecdotal backup on this stuff... many of the people who could confirm are not here to do so.

Which is why it amuses me when people who are still here try to act like there's nothing wrong. It's sort of like saying, "Well I'm still here!" to an empty room. Not a lot of people around to challenge you...
Except that, trying to assign a reason to those closures throws any actual "science" out the window. What were the first servers screaming about merges being needed? The PvP servers. So, if I use your scientific method of proof, then PvP needs to be abandoned because it's not able to sustain it's own servers? Now I'm not really sure, but one of the drops in server numbers, not population, but number of servers, was the closure of the PvP servers, and the toggle between PvP and PvE on every other server.

This is a niche game, with a niche audience. The majority of fans are in my age bracket, and may not even play video games. Some are mad, even now, that this wasn't KotoR 3, or SWG 2. Some are mad that the entirety of the game wasn't the same as Vanilla. I'm not really mad about it, but that was a major reason that I played, I mean, if you ignore the planetary missions for both factions, it's essentially 8 games in one until then. The gamer in me craves a swtor where that ran for the entirety of the game. The guy that has bills to pay every month? He understands that it takes a team of writers dedicated to each class, and this game can't support that. If it had every sub from beta to now, it couldn't support that.

People were mad that it wasn't KotoR 3 or SWG 2 from launch, among other things, and left in droves in the first year. Being mad about what a game isn't is not something that a game developer can fix, especially if they can't make said sequels, for whatever reason. Then there's the hyperbole of "I don't like this, so you shouldn't either, and if you do, you're not a player", that sparked our interaction in this thread. It's clear they wanted a return to vanilla style game development, and it's also clear that they have no concept for how much that would cost. It's not pure laziness that brought about single story arcs, it's also cost to produce 8 stories per world that make any kind of narrative sense. How would one write 8 stories that led back to the FPs that end Ilum, for example?

With this, comes an even greater burn out factor. After all, KotFE style burn out isn't new to this game, it starts with Ilum, and carries forward from there, and Ilum, last I checked, isn't 5.0 or later. So trying to attribute this to 5.0, claiming that nobody asked for it w/out any actual documentation, all while claiming "I don't like it, and if you do you're not a player" doesn't really add to the conversation.
Quote: Originally Posted by Transcendent View Post
Also, just a small point. Why should anyone who plays this game exclusively for any particular type of content, have to run a different type of content just to earn gear? What is that attitude all about?

Rolodome's Avatar


Rolodome
08.17.2019 , 05:39 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by robertthebard View Post
Except that, trying to assign a reason to those closures throws any actual "science" out the window. What were the first servers screaming about merges being needed? The PvP servers. So, if I use your scientific method of proof, then PvP needs to be abandoned because it's not able to sustain it's own servers? Now I'm not really sure, but one of the drops in server numbers, not population, but number of servers, was the closure of the PvP servers, and the toggle between PvP and PvE on every other server.

This is a niche game, with a niche audience. The majority of fans are in my age bracket, and may not even play video games. Some are mad, even now, that this wasn't KotoR 3, or SWG 2. Some are mad that the entirety of the game wasn't the same as Vanilla. I'm not really mad about it, but that was a major reason that I played, I mean, if you ignore the planetary missions for both factions, it's essentially 8 games in one until then. The gamer in me craves a swtor where that ran for the entirety of the game. The guy that has bills to pay every month? He understands that it takes a team of writers dedicated to each class, and this game can't support that. If it had every sub from beta to now, it couldn't support that.

People were mad that it wasn't KotoR 3 or SWG 2 from launch, among other things, and left in droves in the first year. Being mad about what a game isn't is not something that a game developer can fix, especially if they can't make said sequels, for whatever reason. Then there's the hyperbole of "I don't like this, so you shouldn't either, and if you do, you're not a player", that sparked our interaction in this thread. It's clear they wanted a return to vanilla style game development, and it's also clear that they have no concept for how much that would cost. It's not pure laziness that brought about single story arcs, it's also cost to produce 8 stories per world that make any kind of narrative sense. How would one write 8 stories that led back to the FPs that end Ilum, for example?

With this, comes an even greater burn out factor. After all, KotFE style burn out isn't new to this game, it starts with Ilum, and carries forward from there, and Ilum, last I checked, isn't 5.0 or later. So trying to attribute this to 5.0, claiming that nobody asked for it w/out any actual documentation, all while claiming "I don't like it, and if you do you're not a player" doesn't really add to the conversation.
I don't know what I'm even supposed to say to this. You tell me, mockingly, it's a "scientific method of proof," which I never stated it was. I said it's probably the closest we could get to an accurate indicator of decline of time, which you haven't refuted. Instead, you threw up some nonsense about how I'm wrong because I must be arguing that PvP should be abandoned because PvP servers went??? (I mean, for one thing, you do realize you can still do open world PvP on a PvE server, right?)

Then you put on my shoulders some shared responsibility for commentary that I didn't make about "If you like this you're not a player." Again, something I never said.

All while trying to use this nonsense to be dismissive of the idea that 5.0 was generally not received well. Of course some people were fine with 5.0. Unpopular doesn't mean nobody liked it. People leaving in droves doesn't mean nobody liked it. You get told dismissive stuff about "not a real player" or whatever the actual words are, probably because of people being frustrated with "but I liked it" being used as some sort of attempt to refute the idea that something was largely unpopular. Telling people they are wrong for liking something is silly, but it's really not difficult to see that 5.0 resulted in significant population loss. Whatever aspect of 5.0 you want to try to attribute it to, you can be my guest, but the frustration with GC as a system was evident on these forums at the time and the devs felt the backlash so hard they made major changes over time to make the system more bearable. There is evidence in that history as well. Evidence with such a lasting message that it was a main point of discussion in the livestream when they talked about spoils of war in 6.0, acknowledging the issues people had had with the 5.0 system and how they weren't able to respond accordingly fast enough because info was put out so late in development. This denial of reality is just tiresome.
Clicky referral link for freebies, read how referral works.

MikeCobalt's Avatar


MikeCobalt
08.17.2019 , 06:01 PM | #40
I have "High Hopes" for 6.0 and beyond; however being Realistic and tempering my expectations I have to Base those "Hopes" on what we've seen lately from BioWare as far as Capability and some of the Game websites. Story particulars, Size of expansion and the State of the game after the Expansion is played out.

https://imgur.com/bJtpuNu

https://imgur.com/23kFC3B