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Advanced Prototype / Tactics Set Bonuses and Tactical Items


EricMusco

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Hey folks,

 

Following our Onslaught announcement at SW Celebration we want to start diving into feedback right away. I want to use this thread to talk about Tactical Item effects and Set Bonuses for Advanced Prototype and Tactics Disciplines. Our goal for set bonuses is to introduce new bonuses, and potentially with even new sizes so you can mix and match. Tactical Items are a new item type that is meant to be build defining and most likely to directly impact how an ability works. For inspiration here are two completely made up Chain Lightning Examples:

  1. Chain Lightning now does all of its total damage to only one target, and no longer jumps.
  2. Chain Lightning now jumps even more and does additional damage to secondary targets.

 

That would allow you to take a standard ability and allow it to be modified to fit your playstyle. Please use this thread to brainstorm ideas and make as many recommendations as you would like! For context:

  • Tactical Items: These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently. The goal is for you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t (more often, against specific targets, etc)
  • Set Bonuses: These should be focused on the broader “kind of tools” your class uses, but not specific abilities. Some examples are sets that center around bleeds, force damage, lightning, shields, cover, and so on.

Set bonuses, tacticals, both, let us know what you would like to see. I may not respond frequently in this thread but know that I am going to be compiling everything and sending it over to the team.

 

-eric

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A tactical item could be that it changes Energy Burst so that the stacks not only scale damage, but also energy spent. Each stack makes it cost 5 more energy (so 4 stacks remain the same 20 energy). I don't remember the math off hand, but I think it still does more damage as a filler at 2 stacks than Mag Blast while costing a bit less heat. So it would be a juggle between sustained damage vs burst but also making sure we'd use all 4 stacks if there is still an autocrit mechanic tied to it in 6.0.
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TACTICAL ITEMS

 

- A Tactical Item that changes Sonic Missile's 30% Defense Chance to 75% Force/Tech Absorption.

 

While in theory, 30% defense chance can be amazing...or it can be utterly useless. This will help reduce the RNG nature of the ability and offer the spec more consistent survivability that it has lacked for two years, while still ensuring it can still be countered (absorption means reduced damaged, but stun/CC still possible)

 

- A Tactical Item that changes Rail shot, Magnetic blast and Shatter slug to have 15m range instead of 10.

 

This item would restore some of the kiting ability that was lost when it was established that Powertech should be 10 meters and under, giving it increased passive survivability against melee opponents.

 

- A Tactical Item that changes Grappling line to be able to be used within 10 meters, deal X amount of damage and root the target for 3 seconds.

 

SET BONUSES

 

"Brawler" set

 

2/6 - Rocket Punch increases damage dealt by 4% for 15 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.

4/6 - Rocket Punch's heat is reduced by 2%.

6/6 - Increases the duration of Energy Shield and Sonic Defense by four seconds.

 

Will add more as I think on them a bit.

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Tactical item reduces hydraulic overrides cooldown by 10 secs and increases damage reduction by 15% while hydraullics is up. This would allow the class to be able to kite better in PVP making them a little stronger without being OP or sacrificing the glass cannon that they are. Another suggestion would be shatter slug spreads retractable blades bleed to targets it hits in order to give the class a little more AOE. I'm not going to suggest absurd survivability given I expect PT will be given more/better CD's (Example Merc kolto) Edited by MuskyBoy
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I would like to see a tactical item that changes the Vanguard Passive "Tactical Armor". Now the Passive Tactical Armor is: Taking critical damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 2% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

With the tactical item this could be: Taking any damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 10% and decreasing damage dealt by 5% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

This would help the Class to survive much longer in PvP while being focused at the expense of their damage output which is fine and doesnt make the class overpowered.

In PvE you have to consider your reduced damage output so you would only equip this tactical item for heal-intensive Bosses to make the life of your Healers easier when you have overall enough damage in the Raid.

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I would like to see a tactical item that changes the Vanguard Passive "Tactical Armor". Now the Passive Tactical Armor is: Taking critical damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 2% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

With the tactical item this could be: Taking any damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 10% and decreasing damage dealt by 5% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

This would help the Class to survive much longer in PvP while being focused at the expense of their damage output which is fine and doesnt make the class overpowered.

In PvE you have to consider your reduced damage output so you would only equip this tactical item for heal-intensive Bosses to make the life of your Healers easier when you have overall enough damage in the Raid.

 

Sacrificing dps for survivability shouldn't occur in PVE for dps. This would be ok for tanks given they don't have a cheese DCD atm but could also hurt you on a tight dps check where tank damage matters. Although 30% damage reduction is way too high maybe 3 % per stack of DR at the expense of 3 % damage per stack for tanks.

Edited by MuskyBoy
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Tactical Item Ideas. I would like to see some variations which can be a light variant of hybrid specs. but i think every advantage of an tactical item should come with a disadvantage in combination. Also i would advocate for 2 slots for those items. One offensive and one deffenisve

 

Some Offensive Tactical Items


  • Item 1
  • Positive: Make the Bleeding Effect of Retractable Blade spread to all targets hit by Shatter Slug.
  • Negative: Reduce Bleeding Damage by 10-20%.
    This would be a great item for e.g. Izax Master Mode(You would slightly reduce single target dps and would help against izax cutter adds without sacrificing APs burst for respeccing to Pyrotech.

 


  • Item 2
  • Positive: Reduce Cooldown of Heat Vent by 50%
  • Negative: Reduce Heat vented by Heat Vent by 30%
    This would give you a totally different characteristic for the heat management of pt's. Could be very interesting to see the result for different boss encounters.

 


  •  
    Item 3
  • Positive: Change Deadly Onslaught back to Death from above (way more damage)
  • Negative: Death from above cant be used on a rund and has a higher cooldown
    More AOE Damage for certain situation sacrificing the mobile advantage of deadly onslaught and its short cooldown

 

 

Defensive Tactical Item


  • Item 1
  • Positive: Change the effect of Sonic Rebounder to the normal effect of APs sonic missile for your group
  • Negative: No Rebounder for group
    Kinda like the idea to change an effect and it's super interesting to see an tactical item changing something relevant to a group instead of yourself.
     
    Item 2
  • Positive: While having pyro shield utility active. each trigger on pyro shield won'T hit the enemy instead the "energy" triggered will extend the duration of energy shield by x seconds
  • Negative: No Damage from pyro shield

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I would like to see a tactical item that changes the Vanguard Passive "Tactical Armor". Now the Passive Tactical Armor is: Taking critical damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 2% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

With the tactical item this could be: Taking any damage grants Tactical Armor, increasing damage reduction by 10% and decreasing damage dealt by 5% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.

This would help the Class to survive much longer in PvP while being focused at the expense of their damage output which is fine and doesnt make the class overpowered.

In PvE you have to consider your reduced damage output so you would only equip this tactical item for heal-intensive Bosses to make the life of your Healers easier when you have overall enough damage in the Raid.

 

10% damage reduction for 15% damage loss, when in reality it's just 4% than we would have now? Absolutely not, that is 100% garbage. You're trading a net 4% DR gain for 15% dps loss. Garbage. Throw it out the window.

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10% damage reduction for 15% damage loss, when in reality it's just 4% than we would have now? Absolutely not, that is 100% garbage. You're trading a net 4% DR gain for 15% dps loss. Garbage. Throw it out the window.

 

agreed that would only make the class weaker and not give enough defense in return. Basically you are sacrificing your burst window for 4% DR.

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Tactical items:

*Allow Shatterslug to spread Retractable Blade's dot. (Mentioned)

*When Pyro Sheild is active, instead of attacking nearby enemies it increases protection with each enemies' hit. (Mentioned)

*Kolto Overload's health is raised to 50%, and it's cooldown timer is reduced as you take damage.

*Energy Burst at each stack can now spread electricity to all near by enemies with in 10m, temporarily slowing their movement, and applies a dot plus damage debuff when they they try to move. 1stack=1enemy, 4stacks-4enemies.

*Mutli-grapple: Grappling hook can now pull numerous enemies to your location.

*Sonic Rebounder has been updated to now reflect all damage(single target and AOE) back to it's targets while active for a set duration.

 

Keeping with in the Melee theme, here's my wish list:

Powertechs can now equip Polearms and Vibroblades

Update Rapid shots with new melee animations.

Change Electro dart to a HeadButt.

New Move: Flying Knee-Powertech uses jetpack to execute a knee to the chest.

New Move: Self Sacrifice-Powertech can deploy a portable nuke(aoe explosion)that sacrifices his health for damage. Can only be usuable below 50% health.

Edited by TonyTricicolo
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I actually like a few of these, mainly the heat cost scales with the stacks for those mishaps of using EB early as more of a QoL affect, but shatter slug spreading blade bleed at the cost of reducing the blade's bleed effect I think is a great idea for AP. I'll kind of refer to the tactical item description that "These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently" so I won't completely agree with the hydraulics affect. This is just to avoid other other specs from crossing into other specs set bonuses, which I think is their intention.

 

AP

-Dealing damage with thermal det causes your next rail shot to build 2 stacks of energy lode. this changes the rotation a bit even though it is a dps increase, this also increases our heat buildup with EB costing more so would be interesting.

-While thermal det is on the target, your next mag blast costs 0 heat and detonates thermal det prematurely if applied. Obviously inspired by IO with their det+mag burst, but this also helps with those who find AP's basic attack to be very unfitting with all the tech attacks it uses.

-Retractable blade no longer can be refreshed, bu increase both it's initial and bleed effect by 50%, for those that find retractable blade so satisfying to use, but make it in place of those filler mag blasts so AP is much more involved than the simple "brain dead count to 3 spec"

-Mag blast reduces the CD of thermal det by 1 second when it deals damage, just a simple change to priority and an incentive to those who play PT to learn to push their heat boundary and be very rewarded for it.

I personally think EB already has a great stacking mechanic and think any changes to EB with how it acts would change AP a bit too much so the changes are applied the other spec abilities.

Edited by PrometheanDeath
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Give dps vangaurd a charge ability, where they charge full force 30 meters ahead of them, absorb 90% dmg and do 5k dmg to all target they hit in their way. Also, vanguards deserve a jetpack jump, that allows to leap anywhere within a 30 meter range.
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10% damage reduction for 15% damage loss, when in reality it's just 4% than we would have now? Absolutely not, that is 100% garbage. You're trading a net 4% DR gain for 15% dps loss. Garbage. Throw it out the window.

 

Your tradeoff assertion (10% for 15% damage dealt) is not what the poster was suggesting. The poster said 10% for 5%, stacking 3 times, which means at three stacks it would be 30% reduction for 15% damage dealt.

 

Also, we should avoid using numbers if possible in these discussions because they are distractions. We get caught up in numbers that will of course be tuned and miss the general point, which is significant damage reduction in exchange for soemwhat less damage dealt. Instead of picking at the numbers chosen in the example, we should

Be critiquing the tradeoff concept itself. The numbers can and will change and at this point they do more to derail discussion.

 

Regarding the actual tradeoff proposed, overall it is a reflection of the current state of PT/VGs lack of comparable survival tools. It is understandable, but if we leverage tactical items to address fundamental problems with the class, then we have effectively wasted the tactics slot and it will be a must-have with no other variety.

 

So I believe we should not be attempting to use tactics to solve class balance problems. Instead we should assume that the rebalancing addresses those problems so tactics do not become an inflexible crutch. So in that respect, I find this damage reduction in exchange for damage dealt reduction fundamentally flawed in that it is leveraging tactics to solve a problem that would be better served by overall class/discipline balance. Such a tactical item should not exist.

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Personally I would like some Tactical items that boost the use of grenades.

Possibly some new styles of grenades also, which in turn could add to the loot drop tables for items collected to craft them.

Or reduce the cooldowns on them as they are 3 minute CD at moment.

 

I just love throwing bombs at bad guys.....or good guys, heck I don't care. I just love throwing things that go BOOM!!!!

 

Also the Shoulder cannon, items to turn it into a single target with more damage type?

 

I think my main worry about all this though is that I may want to change my skill class after all the changes.....will there be a way to do this? Like from a Powertech to a Mercenary ?? My char is too old to just delete and start again and I really don't want another BH alt. I have a Main char and I like her but after the changes???

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First suggestion: Tac item regarding defensives. I'm not saying to make PT invincible, but maybe a tac item that either allows for damage reduction stacks with say rail shot. Rail shot for Ap is definitel something you can use frequently enough to generate stacks.

Another defensive suggestion could be something related to energy shield. Maybe the tac item turns energy shield into a reflect. I know plenty of PTS would love to have reflect, even if it isn't as strong as other classes reflects.

Lastly for defensives: tac item that reduces CD of energy shield or kolto overload. This results in a strict survivability increase for PTS, and it would alter how people use the class.

 

 

For rotation itself

Make tact item that causes mag blast and energy burst to use 5 less heat. Its minimal heat difference, but for a class that requires being safe with heat, it would change how aggressive you could be.

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Tactics

Note: These ideas are based on three things:

1) That tactical items is a new specific item slot whose primary function is to change the way a skill functions or adds an addtional function to an ALREADY existing discipline specific skill. For Tactics, these are as follows: Assault Plastique, Cell Burst, Tactical Surge and Gut

2) That the changes listed as potential ideas consider the fact that set bonuses are a separate design, however can coexist together without necessarily clashing in functionality

3) The ideas proposed are not/do not consider the possibility of new changes expected for future class balancing, and are therefore likely to change to correspond to the updates

 

Tactical Items: "These should modify one of your Advanced Class/Discipline abilities to work differently. The goal is for you to use the ability in situations you previously wouldn’t (more often, against specific targets, etc)"

 

Gut

Gut now has a cooldown of 15 seconds, Gut can now be used 15 metres away leaping to the target and applies Smothering Slag if the Heroic Utility is learnt

 

Using Gut on a target now causes the Vanguard to steal 5% of the target's alacrity, reducing the target's alacrity by 5% and increasing the vanguard's alacrity by 5%, effect can only be applied once, only applies on the last target affected by Gut

 

Assault Plastique

Assault Plastique's damage is now instant, however it's range is decreased

 

Assault Plastique now interrupt's the target upon explosion

 

Tactical Surge

Tactical Surge builds an Energy Lode. Applies once every 9 seconds

 

Tactical Surge grants Tactical Aggression, allowing the next Stockstrike or Flak Shell to be used off GCD

 

Using Tactical Surge grants Supression Fire, causing the next Tactical Surge to deal increased range, damage and have reduced cost. Can only occur when Tactical Surge is used consecutively, if any other ability is used then the effect is removed

 

Cell Burst

Cell burst automatically applies Reserve Powercell on a unique cooldown. Applies once every minute

 

Cell burst no longer requires Energy Lodes, however has a 45 second cooldown

 

Set Bonuses: These should be focused on the broader “kind of tools” your class uses, but not specific abilities. Some examples are sets that center around bleeds, force damage, lightning, shields, cover, and so on.

 

2 Set - Applying and Refreshing the cooldown of Gut increases the damage of Stockstrike, Flak Shell, Tactical Surge and Explosive Surge by 2% per stack, lasts 10 seconds (max 5 stacks)

4 Set - Reduces the cost of Cell Burst and Assault Plastique

6 Set - High Impact bolt now applies 2 stacks of Energy Lodes

Full Set - Increases Mastery by 3%, kinetic and energy damage increased by 3%

Edited by Bonzenaattori
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Tactical Items:

 

Increase the range on Rail Shot, Magnetic Blast, Shoulder Cannon, and Energy Burst by X meters. (Personally, I would like to see 30m range again, but I know how absurdly strong that would be since this class could become another RDPS. So 5m or 10m would be the way to go most likely. Of course, having this range returned to us without a Tactical Item or skill tree passive would be greatly appreciated)

 

Increase all critical damage by X% and reduce all non-critical damage by Y%. (make burst specs bursty again. granted, this is kinda far and away the best melee burst right now in PvE).

 

Rail Shot builds 2 stacks of Energy Lode at a time and causes Rail Shot to vent X Heat (not sure how much. maybe 5 or 10). (yay for more burst)

 

Thermal Detonator and Energy Burst are now AoE abilities with 8m range and Shatter Slug now spreads the bleed from Retractable Blade. Also boosts the range of Flame Sweep to 8m.

 

Increases the DR from Energy Shield by and additional 15% and causes it to build stacks of Trauma Regulators that stack up to 10 times and heal you for 5% or 6% max health each when Energy Shield expires. Also allows Energy Shield to be used while stunned. (Would be incredible for surviving in PvP).

 

Set piece bonuses:

2pc: Explosive Fuel now vents 3 heat per second while active and additionally increases all critical damage by X% for the duration. (doesn't need to be massive in my opinion. 25% or whatever it may need to fall into place with the other melee burst specs).

4pc: When Thermal Detonator damages a target, it instantly resets the cooldown of Rocket Punch and causes it to generate reduced Heat (let's say 10 Heat for the sake of it) or no Heat. (this may need an internal cooldown of every second Thermal Detonator or so).

6pc: Reduces the cooldown of Shoulder Cannon and Explosive Fuel by X seconds (let's say 30 for both of them)

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I like the idea of an aoe detonate/plastique option.

 

Tactical item that increases rocket punch/stockstrike range to 10m and causes you to quickly dash forward when you activate it, imagine a little sprint animation for VGs or jetpack animation for PTs, like a mini version of storm/charge, turns the ability into a mini gap closer.

 

Tactical item that increases the maximum stack count for energy/cell burst to 6, maybe with some other bonus attached to push players into shooting bigger, heavier bursts less frequently as a playstyle option.

 

Tactical item that makes artillery blitz/deadly onlsaught instant but still deal damage in the area over a period of time. Imagine the VG/PT quickly shooting off some rounds/missiles and then having them rain down over a few seconds or leave behind an electric/fiery field.

 

Tactical item that lets you load even more missiles, maybe extra initial missiles or two missiles per tick instead, because weaving missiles is a lot of fun.

 

I'm trying to think of a tactical item that might make Magnetic/Tactical a more interesting skill but I can't think of one just yet, maybe tomorrow.

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Damage wise it's the best burst in pve, defensives wise it's really bad but its more like a pvp thing. Giving the dcds without reducing the damage not gonna work so What I would suggest is this :

 

Give dcds and reduce damage. This way, its gonna be viable in pvp without affecting the pve.

The second thing is giving the range to the magnetic blast, shatter slug to 15-20metres, reducing the damage output again, more kiting for pvp, better survivability

Shutter slugs spread the dots on the other targets (already suggested, a very good idea)

Other than that all is fine in this spec.

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