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KOTET Ending discussion:


HollyUSEC's Avatar


HollyUSEC
12.06.2016 , 10:06 PM | #21
Two little things that had me scratching my head.

Not a true story element, but after the big battle inside the war room of the Alliance base, it's all completely cleaned up and repaired immediately afterward.

Furthermore... if you pick "rule the galaxy as emperor/empress." Obviously the Republic and the Sith Empire aren't going to recognize you as THEIR emperor/empress? So exactly how much of the galaxy you truly rule isn't entirely clear. Finally, if you take the throne as ruler, exactly how and why are you supposed to personally go out and fight in these uprisings and any other group content released in 2017? This has been discussed before-- the EMPEROR/EMPRESS doesn't personally go and squash every little threat. They tell someone, who tells someone, who tells someone, who tells someone. Just because the Emperor/Empress might be super-mighty doesn't mean they have to run around squashing all challenges themselves. Even Darth Vader and Darth Sidious knew when to send rank and file, and then if necessary, officers, to do the dirty work.
W T F = F T W spelled backward.

gaelicvixen's Avatar


gaelicvixen
12.07.2016 , 07:51 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by HollyUSEC View Post
Two little things that had me scratching my head.

Not a true story element, but after the big battle inside the war room of the Alliance base, it's all completely cleaned up and repaired immediately afterward.

Furthermore... if you pick "rule the galaxy as emperor/empress." Obviously the Republic and the Sith Empire aren't going to recognize you as THEIR emperor/empress? So exactly how much of the galaxy you truly rule isn't entirely clear. Finally, if you take the throne as ruler, exactly how and why are you supposed to personally go out and fight in these uprisings and any other group content released in 2017? This has been discussed before-- the EMPEROR/EMPRESS doesn't personally go and squash every little threat. They tell someone, who tells someone, who tells someone, who tells someone. Just because the Emperor/Empress might be super-mighty doesn't mean they have to run around squashing all challenges themselves. Even Darth Vader and Darth Sidious knew when to send rank and file, and then if necessary, officers, to do the dirty work.
I've never been clear on whether Zakuul had conquered other planets out in Wild Space prior to attacking the Empire and Republic, so yeah, no idea what my Wrath is now the Emperor of, exactly. Or why Lana would let him run off to personally snuff out any sparks of rebellion, because it doesn't seem like a good idea to leave the Eternal Throne empty.

That was another head-scratcher moment for me, actually, when we leave Zakuul and the Eternal Throne to return to Odessen. And suddenly - hello surprise time skip? - there's a throne room in the base. Like okay...we don't have SCORPIO around and our Hutt hasn't mastered Iokath tech or he'd've roused GEMINI Prime by now, so how the hell can that dinky little chair in Odessen possibly control the Eternal Fleet?

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
12.07.2016 , 10:37 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandreid View Post
I hated KotFE, for all it's plotholes in the very first and second chapter. I predicted a ME3 BS-ending. BW had me facepalming when I learned that they actually wanted to stretch the story over a whole other expansion, potentially ruining not just one, but two expansions.

Having watched the "Betrayed"-trailer and absolutely loved every single second of it, I kinda got my hopes up a little for the expansion. The pacing, music, motives, character development, face expression, scenery, and even link into the last expansion's trailer, I was REALLY impressed. It was a perfect example of "Show, don't tell". It's one of the best gaming trailers I've ever seen. You could really feel Senya's struggle, and how she was powerless versus Valkorion. How he made Vaylin a psycopath and basically made the entire family fall apart. There's even a metaphor in every single scene, for what is going on - It's brilliant!

Coming into KotET, I think they did alright-ish with what the last expansion left it with. However, the plot was very non-surprising, and Vaylin (Unlike in the trailer) was just like she was in KotFE: Annoying, impossible to feel sorry for, and just 1-dimensional. She literally had zero personality. Her only personality trait seems to be: "I'm evil, so I like to kill people. It makes me happy.". As soon as she opens her mouth, I just hear a little annoying kid speak. And she only seems to have one facial expression. You know which one, I'm talking about:
She talks like a deranged Sith, she looks like one, and feels like one. Why was an entire new faction made up for this story again? The Eternal Empire is effectively just "The Sith Empire 2.0"...

The relationship between Senya and Vaylin as shown in the trailer, is never properly shown in the ingame story. In fact, hardly any relationship is explain properly, and it really hurts the story. Why was Thexan even in the story? He was ultimately completely pointless.

On top of this, I felt annoyed that every single character always had their own agendas. Their own edge or profit, they wanted to get out of a situation. I found this unbelievable, since these things could easily, everything considered, costs the future for the galaxy. Everything is suppose to be on the line here, and you want to kill the Alliance Leader so you can take the leadership yourself? **** off! Now is not the time for power-struggles. Unnecessary and forced conflicts to prolong the expansion - No thanks.

Also, why were I never allowed to kill who I wanted to, when I wanted to? I hate Koth. I want to kill him. Can I do it? NOPE. He talks himself out of any situation, because the plot says so. Scorpio? Senya? Anyone? Nope. Because they have plot-armor on, apparently.

The ending was a bit better than what I feared, I'll admit. But in the grand scheme of things, did Valkorion's plan really make any sense? I mean, if he wanted a better empire, why not just merge the new and old Empire? Why even start the invasion with the Sith Empire if it was pointless anyway (You know... The original reason that this game even exist!)? The Eternal Fleet was unstoppable, nonetheless. If he really wanted "The Outlander's" body, then why did he have to let the player go through so much **** for basically nothing? Why didn't he just get the body right away, at the start of KotFE? Why not on Ziost? Why all this **** about his family? Why get them killed, when they really posed no threat? Why get killed himself? There's still so much bs that is unexplained. And it's all because of one little detail: Valkorion is ALL-POWERFUL: He can do ANYTHING. Why make over-convoluted schemes for no reason? You don't need to! Just take what you want - The End!

Long story short: Valkorion and the two expansions can just be boiled down to an over-complicated and over-dramatized version of the Darth Zash's story, for the Sith Inquisitor. Only this one doesn't make much sense, and you were forced to pay BW/EA, in order to play it.
I hope you think it was worth it, because I ultimately don't feel that way.

In terms of an original story, we got screwed hard. The story brought nothing new to the table, so if you want to experience a story about a power-hungry Sith, who wants to live forever, I suggest you just play the Sith Inquisitor's Chapter 1, instead.

This looks familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5f-ZOjrDk&t=8m40s
I killed Koth quite easily on my Sith Sorcerer. The line he had as I impaled him was quite hilarious. Also killed Senya, Scorpio, and I am going to take out Arcann, then Vaylin, then Valkorion.

When it's over, long rid of that damn family. And all betrayers.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy

RowanThursday's Avatar


RowanThursday
12.08.2016 , 09:28 AM | #24
I think the thing about the Dragon of Zakuul is that it was Vaylin's *spirit* that Valkorian ate. That mental conditioning and her railing against it were what made her the murderous sadistic drunk-on-evil nutcase she was for her entire not-really-adult life. Though she was no longer bound by the conditioning, by its prior effects, it was still very much at the core of who she was- i.e. the core of Valkorian's lunch in Chapter 8. I doubt, had Vaylin lived, she would ever have been able to hear the words "Kneel before the Dragon of Zakuul" without feeling a moment of fear and revulsion, deep ingrained, *before* remembering "No, hang on, I'm free now."

Then, too, Valkorian had had untold lifetimes of putting people in cages- as the incoming Empress of the Alliance points out, in one choice- that sort of thing, those mental chains- are, in another sense, at the core of who *he* is too- it's how he expects the universe to work that way, just not against him. As his successor points out too, her mind; her rules. Vaylin's torture, which he caused, and his own twisted mindset combined, made him someone who could be caged by that phrase by someone with the confidence to make it work.
"... Pointless meatbag bickering."
-- HK-55

Swingkittie's Avatar


Swingkittie
05.26.2017 , 01:03 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by anthonyfarhatjed View Post
Here is the FULL EXPLAINED story behind Valkorion's motives and rise to power [gathered from story elements and CODEX] although I agree that some plot-points were poorly executed or shown in the game:

1-Valkorion was originally a sith pureblood named Vitiate, born as a Tenebrae, abandoned by his father Lord Dramath at birth. When Vitiate reached ten years old, his dark power grew immensely, he designed a special holocron, one that was able to trap his father's spirit within it.

2-After his father gone, Vitiate ruled over Nathema, dedicating his time to expand his powers and learn the darkest secrets of the Force. In the Aftermath of the defeat of Naga Sadow and the original sith by the republic, Vitiate invited all neighboring sith lords into a council on Nathema where he drained all their life essence including the planet's. Shortly after the ritual was enacted he gathered the remaining sith as a colony and went into uncharted space.

3-Vitiate thought that the ritual on Nathema made him immortal, but it only left him hungry for more, he plotted to repeat the ritual on a galactic scale (for that he needed a war, and an army). He forged a new empire on Dromund Kaas, created the children of the emperor, and even changed body hosts over the centuries just to keep his spirit going... He even trapped Darth Revan, preserved his body with sith Alchemy (Maelstorm Prison) for a potential future body host. But the republic was too strong to face yet, for that he convinced Mandalorians (Mandalore the Ultimate I think) to declare War on the Republic draining Republic resources, while the newly forged sith empire was shaping up...

4-Sith empire or Republic, both were merely pawns in Vitiate master plan of enacting the Nathema ritual on a galactic scale, but as Satele Shan once wondered, if he would drain all life from the galaxy just for immortality, who would he rule? an emperor of nothing? an emperor of the Void? Not quite... Vitiate always knew, that the sith civilization was flawed, his rule will always be contested, every sith in time will try to stab his master in the back, no true loyalty, just a constant thirst for power (Looking at Darth Baras when he tried to imprison the sith emperor body host...) But Vitiate knew the force was neither light of dark... On his Odyssey in uncharted space he found a planet named Zakuul, and a champion named Valkorion who seems to be connected to defeating the eternal fleet with the gravestone in someway... The sith emperor, transmitted his main spirit into Valkorion, and this explains why he went silent afterwards. The remaining body, in the sith temple was a doppelganger, in someway his voice, eyes and ears, in the galaxy far far away that we know...

5-When the Hero of Tython, killed the emperor on Dromund Kaas, as the emperor's cult stated in an email sent to the sith warrior class story, the emperor went silent, however his soul lingers... After this defeat the emperor (Valkorion here) was weakened, this defeat of his orginal host made his spirit fractured and vulnerable, not only did he lose his eyes, ears, and voice in the galaxy, but he also lost part of his soul, maybe half (This deserves a nod to Voldemort and his horcruxes from Harry potter :P)

6-Revan freed, Revan reborn, seeked vengeance on the emperor for imprisoning him for all these years, the emperor seemed to have shared a bond with revan, just like he did with the outlander (since Revan was able to peak in the emperor's mind many times...) He knew that somehow the emperor still lives, even if weakened, he felt his presence in his mind, that is why he went to Yavin 4, for a ritual that would allow him to conjure the emperor and defeat him once and for all... But before Revan was able to summon vitiate, that fracture of the emperor's soul that the jedi knight had defeated long ago, fed on all the lives that were lost during the revanite's war, and gained enough strength to escape... The soul fracture then went to neighbor planet Ziost and fed on all life on that planet, gaining back it's full stength, the fracture of vitiate soul went back to its main body host Valkorion. Valkorion at this period of time regained full power.

7-After regaining full power from his latest feast, Valkorion, now immortal emperor to a perfect empire (Zakuul), and father to powerful force-sensitive children (Arcann, Thexan, and Vaylin), ordered his two sons to launch a full scale war with the eternal fleet on the republic and the empire. If he wasn't going to reenact Nathema ritual on galactic scale that would be because after Ziost , Valkorion realised that he already is immortal and a god... His full stength is regained, his immortality achieved, his new empire already already too powerful and his eternal fleet unstoppable, he decided to destroy the republic and the empire once and for all, to become the sole immortal uncontested ruler of the galaxy, forever...

8-But there is a flaw in the Plan, his current body host Valkorion was aging and dying, and while I believe that his children were potential hosts, since he obviously didn't father them out of love or raise them out of kindness "A god has no family". Arcann's betrayal however, came unexpected and the emperor's immortal soul seemed forced to merge with the outlander's body. He couldn't take control completely, for that to happen the outlander needed to accept Valkorion; plus Valkorion wanted the outlander to take his throne back, and eliminate his unruly off springs, starting a new legacy with the outlander on the eternal throne. And ofc he needed to see if the outlander is a worthy host, after defeating Arcann, Valkorion appears out of nowhere at the ending cinematic of chapter 16 KOTFE and tells you "You are ready" (a nod to revenge of the sith, where palpatine was testing Anakin to see if he could outbest his old apprentice count dooku in a duel, in this case most likely Arcann his first choice of his next body host)

So this is the full Immortal emperor story in a nutshell, complicated sure, but this is it... it's not poorly wriiten, I think its pretty original but sometimes poorly executed or shown in the game...

Except my original question still stands: How did the phrase "Bow before the Dragon of zakuul" work on the emperor in the dreamworld? I know there is a smart twist somewhere, obviously related to Vaylin :
"Outlander: what's good for Vaylin, is good for you/ Valkorion: hehehe Smart"
Explained very well. Thank you for summing it all up.
Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!

ResidingEvil's Avatar


ResidingEvil
06.19.2017 , 12:59 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Sandreid View Post
I hated KotFE, for all it's plotholes in the very first and second chapter. I predicted a ME3 BS-ending. BW had me facepalming when I learned that they actually wanted to stretch the story over a whole other expansion, potentially ruining not just one, but two expansions.

Having watched the "Betrayed"-trailer and absolutely loved every single second of it, I kinda got my hopes up a little for the expansion. The pacing, music, motives, character development, face expression, scenery, and even link into the last expansion's trailer, I was REALLY impressed. It was a perfect example of "Show, don't tell". It's one of the best gaming trailers I've ever seen. You could really feel Senya's struggle, and how she was powerless versus Valkorion. How he made Vaylin a psycopath and basically made the entire family fall apart. There's even a metaphor in every single scene, for what is going on - It's brilliant!

Coming into KotET, I think they did alright-ish with what the last expansion left it with. However, the plot was very non-surprising, and Vaylin (Unlike in the trailer) was just like she was in KotFE: Annoying, impossible to feel sorry for, and just 1-dimensional. She literally had zero personality. Her only personality trait seems to be: "I'm evil, so I like to kill people. It makes me happy.". As soon as she opens her mouth, I just hear a little annoying kid speak. And she only seems to have one facial expression. You know which one, I'm talking about:
She talks like a deranged Sith, she looks like one, and feels like one. Why was an entire new faction made up for this story again? The Eternal Empire is effectively just "The Sith Empire 2.0"...

The relationship between Senya and Vaylin as shown in the trailer, is never properly shown in the ingame story. In fact, hardly any relationship is explain properly, and it really hurts the story. Why was Thexan even in the story? He was ultimately completely pointless.

On top of this, I felt annoyed that every single character always had their own agendas. Their own edge or profit, they wanted to get out of a situation. I found this unbelievable, since these things could easily, everything considered, costs the future for the galaxy. Everything is suppose to be on the line here, and you want to kill the Alliance Leader so you can take the leadership yourself? **** off! Now is not the time for power-struggles. Unnecessary and forced conflicts to prolong the expansion - No thanks.

Also, why were I never allowed to kill who I wanted to, when I wanted to? I hate Koth. I want to kill him. Can I do it? NOPE. He talks himself out of any situation, because the plot says so. Scorpio? Senya? Anyone? Nope. Because they have plot-armor on, apparently.

The ending was a bit better than what I feared, I'll admit. But in the grand scheme of things, did Valkorion's plan really make any sense? I mean, if he wanted a better empire, why not just merge the new and old Empire? Why even start the invasion with the Sith Empire if it was pointless anyway (You know... The original reason that this game even exist!)? The Eternal Fleet was unstoppable, nonetheless. If he really wanted "The Outlander's" body, then why did he have to let the player go through so much **** for basically nothing? Why didn't he just get the body right away, at the start of KotFE? Why not on Ziost? Why all this **** about his family? Why get them killed, when they really posed no threat? Why get killed himself? There's still so much bs that is unexplained. And it's all because of one little detail: Valkorion is ALL-POWERFUL: He can do ANYTHING. Why make over-convoluted schemes for no reason? You don't need to! Just take what you want - The End!

Long story short: Valkorion and the two expansions can just be boiled down to an over-complicated and over-dramatized version of the Darth Zash's story, for the Sith Inquisitor. Only this one doesn't make much sense, and you were forced to pay BW/EA, in order to play it.
I hope you think it was worth it, because I ultimately don't feel that way.

In terms of an original story, we got screwed hard. The story brought nothing new to the table, so if you want to experience a story about a power-hungry Sith, who wants to live forever, I suggest you just play the Sith Inquisitor's Chapter 1, instead.

This looks familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5f-ZOjrDk&t=8m40s
Did you even play the expansion?

casirabit's Avatar


casirabit
06.19.2017 , 01:59 PM | #27
Quote:
Sandreid;9151867]It does matter - Because he was annoying and my character thought he deserved to die. He was a traitor.

And again I will say YOU CAN KILL him . He still can die. I am really beginning to wonder if you even did the expansion.
A girl should be two things: classy and fabulous. A girl should also always be a lady even when arguing Referral: http://www.swtor.com/r/VkfKqj

JamagsAwesome's Avatar


JamagsAwesome
06.19.2017 , 03:05 PM | #28
OK, I'm going to be fair and say that most of my gripes with the Zakuul arc were things KotFE did, and the worst that can be said about KotET is that it didn't undo them.

However.

Since we're talking about the ending, I can start with that. "My mind, my rules," huh? Then why didn't you "make a rule" that Valkorion couldn't be in charge of your body rather than running around killing fake memory-villains?

How exactly does a holocron that's meant to trap people inside itself get Arcann and Senya into your head?

And what, did the Skytroopers just kind of give up on attacking you?

Now, where's my option to dismantle the Eternal Fleet? It's clearly too dangerous to continue existing, peacekeeper or not. And considering that I've already dethroned three separate Eternal Emperors, I have no reason to think that I'll be any better than they were at holding onto my throne.

In fact, Zakuul spent so much time conquering the rest of the galaxy, I think they can be finished with being a sovereign power. Let me give them over to my faction, because most of my characters are actually pretty loyal to said factions, believe it or not.

Anyway, I should probably stop harping on things I wish I could've done. Let's back up and talk about things I shouldn't have been forced to do. Like using Vaylin's command phrase. It's a testament to how poorly-written she is that we have to do that. The game's just all like "Trust us. She's super powerful. You totally can't beat her unless you use this evil, dark side deus ex machina." Show me something that tells me why I should believe she's a threat!

And don't get me started on Arcann being redeemable. He's a heartless mass murderer, and suddenly he's just not. I mean, what, is he brainwashed, all Revan-style? Because he remembers who he is, but somehow the Voss just un-psychopathed him.

And then you've got Empress Acina, who the game really wants me to be impressed with. Because she... wants to be friends and then spends some time killing stuff in the jungle with you. What the game actually shows us is that she took power by submitting to invaders and agreeing to be Arcann's puppet, but she was scared of Vaylin, so she comes groveling to the Outlander for help. And this is the character we're supposed to think is competent.

And then the Republic is just kind of sitting around watching all of this because I guess they just have too much to do with Star Wars.

And if you're going to make me fight Sith, let me fight actual Sith, not thinly-veiled Sith knockoffs who are being sold as this much-more-powerful third path even though they really just act like Sith. Ooh, but now they're wearing gold instead of black!

If they'd just had Vitiate stage a coup and take over the Dark Council, and then had the alliance be Sith exiles and clandestine Republic support to deal with Darth Arcann and Darth Vaylin, that would have almost been cool and actually kind of fit with the rest of the game.
The Ebon Hawk
Jaks Kenn, Republic Privateer - Gunslinger | Darth Octavios - Assassin
Ja-mags, Jedi Battlemaster - Sentinel | Pholux, Master Conspirator - Sniper

PowerJediRanger's Avatar


PowerJediRanger
06.19.2017 , 08:29 PM | #29
Don't know about everyone, after the ending I was like sitting back somehow not finding it satisfying in a way. From the beginning it felt like they simply did a restart and made it seem like everything before wasn't important and did whatever they wanted.
"Do or do not, there is no try."