Decided to queue for GSF on one of my toons to free up a space in the log occupied by the "Introduction to Starfighter" mission, while the mode had the Galactic Command bonus. After a somewhat lengthy queue, I actually went into it with somewhat raised expectations. Expectations that went straight out of the window (well, what was left of my ship's window) when I fully remembered, "Oh yeah, it completely sucks to play GSF with newbie ships."

 

1v1 I was torn to shreds like a piece of paper, every time, even against ships that were of the same class. My only play was using my scout ship's great speed simply to avoid the enemies firing at me, which makes me useless for holding down the objectives. Literally the only times I could do anything was by attacking spots that were left absent from the enemy team (who have a few veteran players I recognized as well as overall greater choices in ships). Even then, it's not like I can ninja a point without getting noticed and then swarmed with players with obviously superior aircraft.

 

Getting into GSF in this environment is like having your teeth pulled out. New players with basic ships are effectively dead weight on their team, even worse in the team deathmatch mode. It's arguably worse for players like me who took the time leveling out GSF on other toons (in my case just my main), because you know what those upgrades feel like.

 

Maybe give the new players or new characters a starting amount of requisition to at least buff up their first ship, which gets them to a point where they can use that ship to get the required requisition to buff up their new ships and so on. Maybe make GSF legacy wide, so that ships you unlock on one character are accessible on the others (including their equivalents for the opposite factions). Maybe both solutions at once so new players trying out GSF for the first time can avoid the infuriating experience of going up against a wall of upgraded death lasers.

 

Starfighter is one of the modes highlighted by Galactic Command. So shouldn't it be accessible?

 

Anyone else got some thoughts on this?

There are plenty of threads in the GSF forum, giving tons of advice to new and starting players.

-There are also a lot of links to streams and YouTube videos to watch.

 

But basically, spending your initial requisition wisely is a 1/4 of the battle. The other 1/4 is not to go rushing headlong into the fray, hoping you can soak up lots of damage and focus fire and mines and drones and Gunship shots.

 

The next 1/4 is checking out GSF chat on your server and asking questions and getting advice.

 

and the last 1/4 :There's nothing wrong with shadowing another pilot, shooting at their enemies, or drawing enemy fire so they can swoop in and get the kill.

 

With a few matches played, you should have Req enough to do the basic upgrades. - Everyone has to go through this. - Why should someone who decides to start a game mode that's been around since 2013 be s special snowflake.

 

I don't want to discourage anyone, but stopping your spurs from jingling and jangling, and RTFM is highly recommended.

 

You can fully upgrade a ship in a couple of weeks if you play frequently. - Compare that to getting full BiS in ground PvP, and you'll see it's a piece of cake in comparison.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

You can fully upgrade a ship in a couple of weeks if you play frequently. - Compare that to getting full BiS in ground PvP, and you'll see it's a piece of cake in comparison.

...Strange comparison to make, considering that even before the revamp and subsequent elimination in PvP gear, Bio included an option where you can essentially transfer WZ commendations between characters, so that you can gear up your newer toons before tossing them into the fray (assuming you didn't take advantage of the opportunity to grind it in the lower tiers of WZs while leveling said toons up).

 

For the rest of your post, seems to be justifications to the effect of "Don't fix what's broke". Yes, maybe a player can overcome a crippling handicap in the manner you describe. But they DO have a crippling handicap at the start. Whereas the veteran players of the mode are substantially equipped to dominate them to no end in a case of the rich getting richer.

 

And let's be realistic here, the average casual player who pops into GSF isn't going to go on and do the equivalent of research required for a small college essay to improve after getting curbstomped by a team stacked with people with the choice of five ships (a common occurence in my experience, and a situation that doesn't seem to be addressed in your post). Odds are, the extremely negative experience turns them off of the game mode entirely, which is also bad for the game mode incidentally.

 

Here's a possible benefit to reworking GSF so that there's more accessibility to people getting into it for the first time or starting over on another toon, without needing to sort through dozens of guides online in order to enjoy the mode at a basic level. You increase the numbers of players taking part in the mode, consequently increasing the number of games and decreasing the extensive queue times for them. Because at least on my server, it takes ludicrously long to even get into the mode to begin with. I can pop into Warzones within a couple of minutes on most days, no problem.

Edited May 8, 2017 by EliteRevenant

Guess what just got datamined.

No one will try to deny that GSF has a ridiculously steep learning curve, and that the in game tutorial is a complete waste of pixels. However, there is such an open and helpful community in GSF that will gladly take new pilots into the fold and show them the ropes. The GSF forum has some great resources and links, and if you don't feel like doing the research, just /cjoin GSF and ask a few questions. Also, consider moving to a more populated server if queue pops are slow on yours.

 

I think a big part of the problem is that GSF is essentially a completely different game from the rest of SWTOR. Players who are used to being quite good at regular PVE and ground PVP queue up for GSF for the first time, and are reduced to being total noobs again. The resulting ego bruising leads them to complain on the forums about how horribly broken this game mode is. The simplest solution is to temper your expectations, and go in prepared to have you rear end repeatedly handed to you. When I first started flying, I had no illusions about how terrible I would be, so I wasn't too disappointed when I was. That way I was able to just fly, and enjoy myself. Then I looked up a few guides, made a few upgrades, and I was contributing before I knew it.

 

Learning which ships to get and upgrade, which upgrades and crewmembers to choose, and how and when to fly them is the most important step. Unfortunately none of that is mentioned anywhere in game, but fortunately the community has long since figured out all the details of the GSF meta, and it has remained unchanged for years (one of the upsides of the devs ignoring it I suppose). All of that information is readily available if you look or ask for it.

 

Ship upgrades are not as big of a factor as you might think. Picking the right ships and components and getting a feel for the game modes and controls is far more important. In GSF, skill is a way bigger factor than gear. I've seen aces in stock, non-meta, ships completely wreck inexperienced pilots who have all the right upgrades and ships.

A fantastic resource is Despon's GSF School channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWTo5N9w5J_9OeqCvKfWMbQ

If you want to get better at GSF, it's one of the best places to start.

 

As for making your hanger legacy wide, while it may sound like a great option at first, it may not be as good as it sounds. New players still have to start from scratch regardless, players who already have different GSF characters will be faced with the dilemma of which set of ships will overwrite the others, and veteran pilots could start new toons with fully mastered meta ships. As it stands now, when an experienced player starts a new character, they are stuck starting off with the same horrible starter options that everyone else gets. Just something to consider.

 

It is sad that the devs pay so little attention to GSF, but if you want to learn the ropes, there is no better community in SWTOR.

You really have to earn your stripes to be good in GSF. No bolster, no noob friendly anything. If you wanna make it in GSF, you will have to bear down and take many losses, many explosions, and eventually creep your way into a semi decent ship that can make you somewhat useful. Until then, you are just relying on better players and ships to carry you.

 

I'm not totally opposed to this tbh, as someone who has zero interest in GSF anyway, I say one part of the game (a very niche part, I must say) to be like this is fine with me. It's really is the last huzzah in that old school style of gaming where you will not have your hand held to get better. You will die. You will have to grind and put the work in. You will need to read guides and really actually try to be good.

 

The only way I would really dive in to GSF is if they added some type of catch up system to atleast make the grind abit faster, but other then that I think its fine the way it is.

I am trying to encourage people to join the GSF community.....

 

Jus' saying, that in the time it takes to complain on the forums, you could watch a 2 minute stream, or read some of the advice from the veterans. - And in ~10 mins, fly your first match and get 5K fleet req to spend + whatever you get from the match. After that the daily is 2 matches and the weekly 7. - wins count for 2. That's quite a lot of req to spend on the basic tier 1 and 2 upgrades for which-ever ship you prefer.

 

I'm a noob at operations, but I don't expect to get a full set of top-tier gear before I start. I have to work up through Flashpoints, Uprisings and the rest before even starting SM operations. - Coz I don't expect to be a special snowflake. - In the performing world it's called paying your dues.

 

A couple of the vets on my squad were helping a newcomer the other day. We flew together and he/she did fine. - okay, not setting the scoreboard alight, but over the weekend, getting a few medals, and not being a burden or a wasted slot. - They'd never flown anything before- no flight sim, or space-on rails in SWTOR, nothing. - So it can be done with a bit of coaching, and a positive attitude.

I am trying to encourage people to join the GSF community.....

 

I guess only you can say that for your self.

 

I have had many games on TRE recently where the reps simply farmed us at our spawn point with Gunships. This is very very bad to new people who get the wrong impression of GSF and probably never que again.

 

Its actually funny that those names that were doing this were the same names complaining about me winning games in the past.

I get the feeling people are assuming I'm some newbie to GSF. On the contrary, on my main, I've mastered all my ships, and fairly frequently get third billing in matches (or even second or first). I'm aware of the resources that one can peruse to get handy tips and learn the tricks of the trade having gone to them myself. I am, in fact, despite my bemoaning it's present condition, a fan of GSF, and I want to see it be more popular among the players.

 

Which is why I feel improvement on the system, especially pertaining to new players and new characters alike, is needed at a point where the mode has been frankly left stagnant from the devs despite their highlighting it with Galactic Command.

 

Also, consider moving to a more populated server if queue pops are slow on yours.

So if GSF pops are bad on my server, I should just pay money and up and leave all the guilds and friends I have here? Not really a winning strat, mate.

 

The resulting ego bruising leads them to complain on the forums about how horribly broken this game mode is.

The issue is, it actually is broken. The games are slanted against the new players or new characters in a way you'd never see in even similar multiplayer games, even with progression systems (which usually have the common sense to make "upgrades" more or less different options rather than objectively better advantages).

 

You and Storm-cutter are making points amounting to "the crippling handicap can be overcome", and yeah, perhaps it can, but there is a crippling handicap there, that's not in question. The Emperor has no clothes!

 

Ship upgrades are not as big of a factor as you might think. Picking the right ships and components and getting a feel for the game modes and controls is far more important. In GSF, skill is a way bigger factor than gear. I've seen aces in stock, non-meta, ships completely wreck inexperienced pilots who have all the right upgrades and ships.

A fantastic resource is Despon's GSF School channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWTo5N9w5J_9OeqCvKfWMbQ

If you want to get better at GSF, it's one of the best places to start.

I agree skill is very important in GSF and most other game modes, but only to a point. It doesn't matter how skilled someone is if they're going up against a ship that has better shielding, better engines, harder-hitting weapons, and abilities such as distortion field that can not only cancel a lock-on, but also increases your evasion which helps you to avoid blaster fire in general. Going up against a ship that's essentially mastered with one that's fresh out of the shipyard? Skill doesn't help there, only a miracle does.

 

Skill is a more useful deciding factor when individuals and groups are on more equal footing. That, or you're the Hannibal Barca of GSF.

 

As for making your hanger legacy wide, while it may sound like a great option at first, it may not be as good as it sounds. New players still have to start from scratch regardless, players who already have different GSF characters will be faced with the dilemma of which set of ships will overwrite the others, and veteran pilots could start new toons with fully mastered meta ships. As it stands now, when an experienced player starts a new character, they are stuck starting off with the same horrible starter options that everyone else gets. Just something to consider.

1) My expectation for the implementation of the Legacy wide hangar would be that each character might have different configurations for their ships, rather than a single hangar shared across them all with changes made on one toon affecting another. And the thing is, in most cases, I don't even think that'd be a major issue because, since everything would be unlocked, it's at best a mild annoyance to get your preferred build back together through some selections.

 

2) But if veteran GSF players decide they won't deal with the hassle of starting out with the new ships, then they simply can switch back to their veteran toons and then subsequently annihilate the newbies. It's not really a true equalizer.

 

3) I understand that the legacy hangar isn't a perfect solution, hence suggesting a more substantial starter requisition gain (which might apparently be happening anyway if the mentioned datamine above is accurate). But then it would be a nice quality of life change that would have GSF veterans more willing to play on alts.

 

The only way I would really dive in to GSF is if they added some type of catch up system to atleast make the grind abit faster, but other then that I think its fine the way it is.

Minimizing the grind needed to get out of that incredibly poor start would be one good approach. I've seen the idea of boosting requisition gains floated on another thread here (almost in the same vein as mine incidentally, which makes me feel a little bit silly).

 

I guess only you can say that for your self.

 

I have had many games on TRE recently where the reps simply farmed us at our spawn point with Gunships. This is very very bad to new people who get the wrong impression of GSF and probably never que again.

 

Its actually funny that those names that were doing this were the same names complaining about me winning games in the past.

Pretty much my thoughts on the matter. If you really want to encourage people to get into GSF, surely you'd rather they'd get the best first impression possible so that they'd queue up again in the future at a greater rate (rather than a extremely bitter taste that has them swear it off entirely). That way you have more GSF players at any given time, queues to start matches don't take as long as they do currently, which is effectively a win-win by my calculations.

Guess what just got datamined.

...Guys, I think Keith is a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord, and he's reading my mind.

 

Halp!

Personally, I like the difficulty of GSF for noobs. I came recently in Harby with my new gunship, and got shredded plenty of times. I've almost mastered it's components now, and consistently get top three or first place every match. It's the only mode that has been left hard, and not turned into a bolstered realm of softies. The whole gamemode is a flustercluck and massacre. People who play GSF are tough and dedicated. I love that.

 

Honestly, my best advice is to not rush. Let the vets go first, shadow them, and get assists or kills after the enemies have been softened up. Don't go rushing in expecting to be a strong contributor to the battle, because as a noob that just isn't an option and that's perfectly alright. I'm not saying don't do your best, I'm just saying that you shouldn't throw yourself out there with an unmodded ship, expect to do well, and instead cost your team points.

 

My second bit of advice is to listen to your ops leader, or an experienced GSF player. If someone in ops chat is giving orders/asking people to do certain things, then they likely know what they are talking about (i.e. what tactices work, and what doesn't). Stick with the team, stick to the plan, and adapt as necessary.

 

When it comes to what you should mod first, it's honestly personal preference. I have always modded my weapons first (NOTE: invest in some burst cannons as your primary weapon, they work wonders) because the higher your damage output, the more kills you get, and the more requisition you get, and more requisition means more upgrades. It's an upward spiraling cycle.

 

Anyway, I hoped I helped. Good luck, and I'll see you on the battlefield!

 

-Catherine Skirata the Pure

Personally, I like the difficulty of GSF for noobs. I came recently in Harby with my new gunship, and got shredded plenty of times. I've almost mastered it's components now, and consistently get top three or first place every match. It's the only mode that has been left hard, and not turned into a bolstered realm of softies. The whole gamemode is a flustercluck and massacre. People who play GSF are tough and dedicated. I love that.

Difficulty doesn't really feel like the right word, if I'm being honest. Difficulty in games has been done really well, like with Dark Souls.

 

We can call having the deck literally stacked against you in a card game "difficult". We can't call it "fair".

 

And surely, as a GSF fan, you would prefer a more numerous playerbase to a smaller pool of "tough and dedicated" flyers, right? Because having a smaller pool means less games which means less time to enjoy GSF.

 

Honestly, my best advice is to not rush. Let the vets go first, shadow them, and get assists or kills after the enemies have been softened up. Don't go rushing in expecting to be a strong contributor to the battle, because as a noob that just isn't an option and that's perfectly alright. I'm not saying don't do your best, I'm just saying that you shouldn't throw yourself out there with an unmodded ship, expect to do well, and instead cost your team points.

Do you have any idea how unsatisfying that sounds from a game development standpoint? And what if your team is stacked with people with relatively basic ships up against a team with the opposite? With how the queuing system works, that's distinct possibility.

 

My second bit of advice is to listen to your ops leader, or an experienced GSF player. If someone in ops chat is giving orders/asking people to do certain things, then they likely know what they are talking about (i.e. what tactices work, and what doesn't). Stick with the team, stick to the plan, and adapt as necessary.

*facepalm* Does anyone not get that I am just such an experienced GSF player? I'm not some newblood that picked up the mode and instantly came crying to the forums. I have mastered a number of ships on my main and gotten pretty skilled. I did the hard work of getting my ships at above passable quality so as to be competitive.

 

My grievance is that persistently the experience of starting over on a new toon, in a time when a lot of GSF veterans have gained traction and upgrades, is an unpleasant and infuriating one each time I try it, especially in uncoordinated pugs (and I know so few players who actually plays GSF that a coordinated group is a pipe dream). I can only imagine that the experience for the average new player who doesn't have the original toon with all the progress I got is one akin to torture more likely to cause them to write off the mode entirely rather than invest into getting better at it (that requires you to enjoy a mode first and foremost).

 

Anyway, I hoped I helped. Good luck, and I'll see you on the battlefield!

 

-Catherine Skirata the Pure

"Help" is really not the point of the thread so much as "exploring and discussing what possible changes can be made to make GSF more accessible to players as a whole".

 

I appreciate the attempts to offer advice, but it's missing the point of the discussion I'm trying to broach here. And if I'm being honest, it's making me feel rather talked down to.

Edited May 8, 2017 by EliteRevenant

1st thing they should do would be faction-wide GSF hangars. It's ridiculous that a side (mini) game that is GSF has character-specific hangars, each starting from zero. That kills alt-playing even with regular/veteran players which in turn decreases participation in GSF even more.

 

Then they should, at the very least, unify 'gearing' between PVE space missions and GSF. Even without any changes to PVE space mission gameplay. Add PVE class ships to hangars and have them aquire upgrades with the same currency GSF starfighters use and have PVE space missions give out requisitions. 2 sides of the same "experience" completly disconnected with each other in every single aspect is another ridiculous aspect of the game. New players can't even supplement themselves with PVE missions to get better start in PVP upgrades in GSF.

 

Requests for PVE version of GSF are probably beyond hope now so won't even bother.

And anyway about mastering ships fast, 4 weeks and 80k cartel coins can do wonders

GSF was a good idea, but a failed experiment because of 100s of bad decisions to make it what it should have been. The best thing they could do for GSF is scrap the current version and just import the old X-wing vs Tie Fighter games with updated graphics and ship skins. The rest is already worked out for them and would be a lot more popular as it had pvp and pve aspects to it. Those games also had joystick support and could easily have game pad support. Nobody I know wants to play a SW space sim with a mouse and keyboard. Edited May 9, 2017 by Icykill_

GSF was a good idea, but a failed experiment because of 100s of bad decisions to make it what it should have been. The best thing they could do for GSF is scrap the current version and just import the old X-wing vs Tie Fighter games with updated graphics and ship skins. The rest is already worked out for them and would be a lot more popular as it had pvp and pve aspects to it. Those games also had joystick support and could easily have game pad support. Nobody I know wants to play a SW space sim with a mouse and keyboard.

 

"Scrap GSF" says the person who probably only tried it a few times.

 

Very considerate of you.

"Scrap GSF" says the person who probably only tried it a few times.

 

Very considerate of you.

 

Not what I meant and you know it.

...Guys, I think Keith is a Jedi Knight or a Sith Lord, and he's reading my mind.

 

Halp!

 

More cartel shop crap is reading your mind?

Not what I meant and you know it.

 

Look, if you want an X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter Sequel/Remaster then by all means ask for it. But don't ask for GSF to be removed when lots of people clearly enjoy it.

 

"I don't like this toy, destroy it for everyone and give me what I want!"

Look, if you want an X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter Sequel/Remaster then by all means ask for it. But don't ask for GSF to be removed when lots of people clearly enjoy it.

 

"I don't like this toy, destroy it for everyone and give me what I want!"

 

You do realise that GSF is a just bad copy of that system with none of the benefits. Do a YouTube search for it and pvp and you will see the similarities. Xwing vs Tie Fighter is still so far ahead of GSF in functionality and features and it's nearly 20 years old.

I'm not suggesting for GSF to be removed from the game, only that they need to rework it and look at what's worked in the past and use that to base it off. It's obvous that the current system isn't enough to keep people happy or get others to try it.

While there are people who enjoy the current format, the whole experiment was a failure because even when it was launched it didn't fulfill its potential and people stopped playing it shortly after. People they attracted to the game specifically to play a SW flight sim, left just as fast as they arrived.

Even if they had just added some basic features like joystick or game pad, it would have been more successful. I would certainly have kept playing it if it had those features.

It also failed the pve community who were asking for a free flight experience to do pve content and not some silly space thing on rails that is already in the game.

You do realise that GSF is a just bad copy of that system with none of the benefits. Do a YouTube search for it and pvp and you will see the similarities. Xwing vs Tie Fighter is still so far ahead of GSF in functionality and features and it's nearly 20 years old.

 

She does have a point.

 

You basically have the same stuff (swaping F1, F2, F3 for lasers, shields, engine), targeting, torpedos etc, its more or less the same thing. On the other hand, how can you improve such a simulator?

I like GSF exactly like it is. It is very challenging but very fun. I'm still quite bad at it but improving and each kill is an accomplishment. This is how PvP should be. Calls to dumb it down are misguided at best.

 

What it needs instead is a MUCH better tutorial and the equivalent of lowbies where new players in bad ships can fight.

She does have a point.

 

You basically have the same stuff (swaping F1, F2, F3 for lasers, shields, engine), targeting, torpedos etc, its more or less the same thing. On the other hand, how can you improve such a simulator?

 

She sort of has a point, but I think is overly harsh on GSF. I loved XvT, but really if you're honest the only two things XvT had over GSF are depth of missions (both story and variety) and much better control options. Gameplay-wise, for the combat, GSF is actually more fluid than XvT was, and faster paced.

 

But the deeper mission objectives and the link between the missions was cool. Cap ships too.

 

GSF is actually quite good.

Edited May 9, 2017 by stoopicus

It also failed the pve community who were asking for a free flight experience to do pve content and not some silly space thing on rails that is already in the game.

 

Not saying GSF is a bad thing eventhough I agree with you that certain X-wing games from the past were better, but I quoted this because Bioware really needs to start listening to what their loyal player base wants instead of trying to appeal to the wrong crowd. SWTOR will never be able to compete with the latest fully-fledged action games, because of its engine. I can see EA is behind these strategies, because those strategies work in the console industry. They need to let Bioware do its own thing because PC gamers are a different kind of audience.

Edited May 9, 2017 by saberscreen

 

You can fully upgrade a ship in a couple of weeks if you play frequently. - Compare that to getting full BiS in ground PvP, and you'll see it's a piece of cake in comparison.

 

I'm wondering which server has an active enough community in NA that you get enough matches to FULLY UPGRADE a ship in 2 weeks?

 

The end-tier upgrades for important components cost 10-15k requisition each, and there are multiple ones (4-6 of those alone, depending on the ship). You need to spend around 8k to get to that point for each type of upgrade.

 

Then there are the less expensive but still important component type upgrades.

 

All in all, it takes many matches to get that much requisition - so - what server?

 

If it's Harbinger, is there any other server you can do this on? If not, there's a serious problem with your post. We're supposed to transfer our characters in order to play GSF? Why not bump up requisition gain per match if you're a subscriber? Increase the daily and weekly awards?

 

I play on a "populated" NA server, and it takes about a 1-2 months of playing most days to master a ship's components, waiting for matches in the evenings. Some days, you might be lucky to get 3-4 matches in an entire night, especially on weeks where it's not much of a benefit for conquest. Does that sound broken to you? It certainly does to me.

 

That's per ship, and there's 12 on each faction (mirrored).

Edited May 9, 2017 by arunav