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Looking for some encouragement to spec Telekinetics in 3.0

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sage / Sorcerer
Looking for some encouragement to spec Telekinetics in 3.0

Macetheace's Avatar


Macetheace
11.13.2014 , 11:18 PM | #1
but my instincts are screaming pick balance.

right now in 2.10, my balance easily out dps' my TK, but then I looked at the group utility for balance and saw Vanquish
Quote:
Vanquish: Vanquishes the target with mighty force, dealing kinetic damage initially, plus additional kinetic damage over 6 seconds. The target also becomes Vulnerable for 45 seconds, increasing the damage taken from Force attacks by 5%. Shares a cooldown with Mind Crush.
and I thought, that pretty much means game over for Telekinetics, who would not pick Balance for PvE or pvp?

but maybe I'm missing something... the only thing that would make TK played over balance is if it was set at 5% higher dps than a balance spec not using vanquish vulnerable debuff or even higher, because the utility in that debuff immediately makes Balance better for grouping up PvE or PvP, especially if there are other force users in your group.

I won't say it is game over for TK yet without seeing the numbers, but I seriously doubt it would go back to TK having a higher dps.

I'm surprised all Sages didn't get this buff, what's going to happen to TK in 3.0??

Then look at Serenity Shadow.
Quote:
one of the new passive abilities allows Force in Balance to spread Weaken Mind and Sever Force periodic effects to the unaffected targets it damages, as long as one of the targets it damages is affected by those periodic effects.
That effectively raises the AoE on balance to 3 (or 5 if you count it by the dots), and it's really exciting.

I wish TK would have had something more exciting...i was dreaming about Project possible having a skill that amplified it to an aoe, sending a stream of objects with the force to hit multiple targets up to 5 times, if one target then it would hit that target 5 times, if 6 targets then a rock whill hit each once, over 5 sec period, turning it into a mini dot, and making it advantageous to use.


On the whole I had thought or hoped for more pulsating and exciting abilities, another exciting TK ability would have been a floating lightaber that javelin's throws your lightsaber to your target and melees the target using your saber strike and double strike, or even better, adds a couple of shadow lightsaber abilities like Shadow strike and and low slash or clairvoyant to it's repertoire .. and it's up for x secs, like 10 or 15 secs whiles you continue to dps at range, or you could alternatively be channelling it instead and you can use the melee abilities rather than it automatically and maybe even add a utliity passive that halves the time you need to channel, so you can continue casting for the other half while the light saber continues meleeing at range.

So, Balance has better utility, better aoe, easier rotation, am I missing something big about TK that says otherwise? Thoughts?
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-Sirus-'s Avatar


-Sirus-
11.14.2014 , 05:00 PM | #2
Both specs get the same set of raid utility buffs (vulnerable and overwhelm). For TK, you get vulnerable off of using mind crush from Mental Momentum.

Macetheace's Avatar


Macetheace
11.14.2014 , 05:47 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by -Sirus- View Post
Both specs get the same set of raid utility buffs (vulnerable and overwhelm). For TK, you get vulnerable off of using mind crush from Mental Momentum.

oh, that's rather nice, it really changes the complexion of things too. a lot more even, but, why did the guy on dulfy.net, say this::
http://dulfy.net/2014/11/14/swtor-3-...estream-notes/
Quote:
Burst damage spec, it is suppose to do lower overall damage than Madness but not down to our target values yet.
cos that doesn't sound right to me at all.

if anything, the spec with the greater simplicity should do less damage, aespecially when it is easier for that spec to keep doing damage when on the move.

The way i interpret it, TK and Balance should roughly come out even.

TK is like an inverse cos wave, it has high burst, then a bit of dearth period then high burst again, whiles balance with low burst has a ramp up build that keeps getting stronger and stronger till it is high continuously. Then TK covers lost ground when it's burst window opens again, and in fights with adds will do well, pulling level. Again balnace will do better if the adds take or stay longer, so it's atually stronger in AoE now, whereas it was traditionally TK and it was here it would catch up to balance. Balance has the edge when movement is required, to balance TKs stronger AoE

waht 3.0 has done is strenghtened balance's aoe, and strenghtened TKs movement dps. However TK should still be slightly better for aoe, and balance slightly better for movement. Fights with large numbers of adds that die quickly are better for TK, fights with adds that take a while are better for balance.

The dps should overall feel the same, if the fight lasts a minute TK is stronger, if the fight lasts 2 mins, balance is stronger, if the fight lasts 8 mins, they're both roughly neck in neck, because TKs high after the cooldowns are reset should cause it to catch up,

At the end of the day, the one which you like should be just fine, but a min-maxer would master both, and change in fights thath slightly boost one spec over the other, there should not be a clear winner dps wise
If it feels wrong, it usually is.

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Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
11.15.2014 , 03:25 AM | #4
Keep in mind that those numbers are on a single target.
On a single target fight sustained dps should always win versus burst specs. During a boss fights things tend to go differently. You might need more AoE power in certain fights or the fight might require fast target swaps.
These are 2 situations where TK becomes more important and balance starts lacking.

You can't judge a class just by the words that one will do more damage single target wise (which is what the devs were talking about)
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Macetheace's Avatar


Macetheace
11.15.2014 , 09:31 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
Keep in mind that those numbers are on a single target.
On a single target fight sustained dps should always win versus burst specs....
and that is what i've never really understood why? or why some people say that.

damage is damage, it's the same damage, you can apply it differently, which is what makes things interesting and creates different play styles so you can have different specs, but it's the same damage. In the end it should be the same

in 10 mins of fight, the burst spec should do as much damage as the sustained spec, the burst is different because it periods of high damage and periods of lower damage when stuff is cooldown, the sustained has a slow ramp up time but once it gets going is consistent all throghout.

higher upfront damage in burst has adavnatages for pvp fights that tend to be faster, not always, the good fights take a while which is fine for sustained, sustained makes it easier by being lots of instants allowing you to damage fast on the move, and to apply effectively the same round of damage to more than one target by dotting them up, gives you the freedom to move, LoS others, whiles the burst spec has the dadv of having to stay still and if locked down early is bust cos all it's cooldowns are blown

so effectively, both work well in pvp too but with different advantages, and the way it's played out for casters much more so than melee is that sustaied dots has been much more effective, easier to use too.

Point 3, is because of sustaineds ramp up, it tends to be made intentionally easier too, with burst specs like TK made more complex because of how they work, again for this it's a matter of preference, do you prefer to keep track of dots or watch cooldowns/procs - ?? with this class, keeping tracks is very simple, making TK more complicated.


So conclusion? why should the dot spec do more damage ooverall? Ans it shoudln't. They should do the same. On very short fights, the burst spec enjoys higher numbers, on fights that last long enough for the intiial burst to go down fully and then throughout the cooldowns, sustained will do more or just about the same if it's just before the new burst period.

Sustained should fair better in single boss fights not because it's "sustained" and therefore should be preset to do higher damage, but merely because burst has ups and downs, and if the fight ends halfway through an UP, the burst spec hasn't done enough daamge to make up for the down phase, whiles the sustained has kept going on the level.


or the fight had more movement.. which is why usually the burst spec is given more aoe damage, or the advantage their . doesn't have to, but then it makes more diversity.. it would be silly to have one spec more complex to play, less mobile and also do less damage and less AoE too. why not pair them up

simplicity is a pro, mobility is a pro
higher aoE is a pro


sustained, mobile
burst, AoE

that's the pairing for the sage. Balance got a huge boost to AoE by being able to spread the DoTs simultaneously in addition to Force in Balance, TK is still just stuck with TW and FQ,Balance now has better AoE, I wish they'd add a skill to allow TK to be able to AoE project, that would even the odds.
TK got some help with movement, but it's still not a mobile spec, they should make #turbulence deliver a high damage 6 or 3 sec doT on up to 5 targets in melee range of the target
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Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
11.17.2014 , 05:00 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Macetheace View Post
So conclusion? why should the dot spec do more damage ooverall? Ans it shoudln't. They should do the same. On very short fights, the burst spec enjoys higher numbers, on fights that last long enough for the intiial burst to go down fully and then throughout the cooldowns, sustained will do more or just about the same if it's just before the new burst period.
Forgot I posted here so here is finally my answer. I will focus my answer on the above quote.

Burst has the advantage when there are adds to take care of.
A sustained spec has to choose:
- Do I do my full ramp up time on the add to kill it and do good damage eventually?
- Do I shorten my ramp up time for slightly more damage up front but less damage overall?
A burst spec just swaps and kills.

So if a burst spec would benefit with target swapping but still hit as hard as sustained on bosses, why would you pick a sustained spec?
I think you and I both know that damage numbers are not the most important part of the game (as in you can enjoy the game even when not playing the best spec). But design wise every spec (or dicipline) needs a reason to play above any other. Fun being a factor but also effectiveness.

So looking at the current effectiveness reasons for Balance and TK.
Balance
+ High sustained single target damage
+ Decent mobility for ranged class
+/- AoE open for discussion. Change seems good but I'd like to see it before I judge it
- Suffers from target swapping
TK
+ Good burst, so good for target swapping
+ Good AoE that can be delayed a little for the benefit of the fight
- Lower mobility due to casts
- Lower sustained single target damage

So currently if you want your team to be most effective, then you would pick TK when the fight introduces multiple adds and Balance when the fight is more single target focused.

So conclusion time. Balance is higher in single target sustained since it is build to shine in that one area over TK. TK is lower in single target sustained since it shines in other areas where Balance suffers (add management and burst phases).
A 10 minute fight, which you are refering to, on a single target is as sustained as can be. This gives Balance the upper hand since it is the one area it is good at, it is the one area it is build for.
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Macetheace's Avatar


Macetheace
11.17.2014 , 05:09 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
Forgot I posted here so here is finally my answer. I will focus my answer on the above quote.

Burst has the advantage when there are adds to take care of.
A sustained spec has to choose:
- Do I do my full ramp up time on the add to kill it and do good damage eventually?
- Do I shorten my ramp up time for slightly more damage up front but less damage overall?
A burst spec just swaps and kills.
a sustained spec just multi dots both and cpmceovab;u get them down in roughly the same time.

it just seems basically a different way of doing or achieving the same thing, and depending on how the fight is presented favours one over the other. If they died quickly, it favours burst who has all it's damage given up front, if they take longer it favours sustained but only to the point when burst dps doesn't,

I mean that's what i do, in fact for the sustained spec, the worse case scenario is single low level mobs by themselves because they die too quickly in groups before my DoTs can start kicking up, multiple mobs is fine or even 2 cos i just DoT both. But as burst range, mobs by themselves can also be quite annoying.

I may be able to have most of my damage upfront given straight away, but that usually happens after an annoying timed cast i have to stand still, potentially suffer pushback for before that damage is delivered, and normally by that time, the melee has smashed it all up.

So, should i argue that casters classes should outdps melee classes? I could, but they'd never do that, still isn't a reason why sustained should be doing overall more damage than burst, it should be the same, but because burst has highs and lows, there are certain points where burst will be higher than sustained and certain points it will be lower.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
So if a burst spec would benefit with target swapping but still hit as hard as sustained on bosses, why would you pick a sustained spec?
Because swapping targets isn't a disadvantage, not every fight is like that either. played a certain way swapping is an advantage.

Fights where you have to move a lot will be certainly better for sustained if they're at equal dps level, but if this sustained gets more damage overall, why pick the harder to play , more annoying and interruptible/disruptable burst caster?

What does actual data show? I remember when TK was doing more damage than balance on the dummies, there were fights balance was doing better than TK because of what was involved in the fight. High movement etc. you look at the new abilities and now I can even spread my dots on one target to every target, removing the set up problem with swapping targets for this particular spec.

so what am I saying? your example is just one type of fight where previously burst spec would have done better, i'm saying you can't justify it based on that because there are other fights where the reverse is true. And for this particular situation, now spreading dots introduced in 3.0 really makes it easier to prepare the set up you need on all the targets. it's an amazing ability. I'm still not seeing why Balance should out damage TK. I'm still seeing they should be the same, but because they do the damage differently and have pros/cons they will do differently in different fights.

Quote: Originally Posted by Whojoo View Post
I think you and I both know that damage numbers are not the most important part of the game (as in you can enjoy the game even when not playing the best spec). But design wise every spec (or dicipline) needs a reason to play above any other. Fun being a factor but also effectiveness.

So looking at the current effectiveness reasons for Balance and TK.
Balance
+ High sustained single target damage
+ Decent mobility for ranged class
+/- AoE open for discussion. Change seems good but I'd like to see it before I judge it
- Suffers from target swapping
TK
+ Good burst, so good for target swapping
+ Good AoE that can be delayed a little for the benefit of the fight
- Lower mobility due to casts
- Lower sustained single target damage

So currently if you want your team to be most effective, then you would pick TK when the fight introduces multiple adds and Balance when the fight is more single target focused.

So conclusion time. Balance is higher in single target sustained since it is build to shine in that one area over TK. TK is lower in single target sustained since it shines in other areas where Balance suffers (add management and burst phases).
A 10 minute fight, which you are refering to, on a single target is as sustained as can be. This gives Balance the upper hand since it is the one area it is good at, it is the one area it is build for.
Good conclusion. I would say they should both do the same damage, fights where mobility is essential benefits balance more, fights with multiple targets benefit TK more. over a very long stretch they are equal, if you catch TK on a high point it will be doing more damage, if you end when it's on it's low point i.e. cooldowns have been over for a while and it hasn't yet got the refreshed abilities to blow and catch up for the down phase, then balnace will do better.

Add lots of movement and balance will do better, add some more aoE TK might do better. Now with the new additions balance is so much better at swapping, TK is not so bad wtth mobility.
If it feels wrong, it usually is.

Businesses must act with integrity in all things.

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.18.2014 , 05:13 AM | #8
TK will be about snaring groups with alacrity, and AOE'ing them while they try to crawl away and escape.

Mwahaha!

Consider:
Base alacrity (7%) + 5% from procs = 12%, then add MentalAlacrity (20%) = 32%.

GCD = 1.02 seconds.
ForceWave.
ForceQuake channel time goes from 6 seconds to 4.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Whojoo's Avatar


Whojoo
11.18.2014 , 03:24 PM | #9
I had written quite a response but due to having to travel (and no wifi) I have to rewrite it.........
I am lazy so you get the short version now.

Buffs to FiB are great yes, but that doesn't make Balance suddenly great at target swapping. Remember the following things:
- It has a 15 second cooldown and is usually used on cooldown. Delaying it is a good dps loss (sometimes necessary for fights but if it can be prevented then prevent it).
- For this super effect to be effective the enemies need to be within 16m from eachother.

Why TK is still better with adds/AoE moments:
- No to very low rampup time (depending if you need auto crit Turb) so quick at starting damage which is already a gain in single target swapping vs Balance.
- Can delay it's AoE attack without causing dps loss. You can actually throw in 3 Telekinetic Waves in 13.5 seconds (not counting alacrity) compared to 1 FiB from Balance.

But like you mentioned, not every fight is about target swapping. But not every fight is single target based either. The higher damage the developers talked about was for this single target part which is what Balance is build for to be better at compared to TK.

So yes Balance will get a great buff with FiB and I am happy they get it. But TK will (and should) still outperform Balance in fights where you actually need to swap targets or take out multiple targets. That also means that Balance should be better at what Balance is build for.

And about easier rotations should do less damage. TK rotation is brain dead easy to be honest.

One last thing. There are plenty encounters where there are shorter moments of damage. These moments are long enough to start noticing the downside of bursts and long enough to gain from sustained. In these situations the damage should be near equal.
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Citruzz's Avatar


Citruzz
11.18.2014 , 08:44 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Ycoga View Post
TK will be about snaring groups with alacrity, and AOE'ing them while they try to crawl away and escape.

Mwahaha!

Consider:
Base alacrity (7%) + 5% from procs = 12%, then add MentalAlacrity (20%) = 32%.

GCD = 1.02 seconds.
ForceWave.
ForceQuake channel time goes from 6 seconds to 4.
not really. at 100% alacrity, you hit twice in the same time. ergo at 100% Alacrity, your forcequake will channeling 3 secs faster, which allows you to cast two of them in 6secs. At 32% Alacrity, your forcequake is reduced to 5,04secs. This maths includes the gcd.
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