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The Incompetence of Bioware is Astounding.

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The Incompetence of Bioware is Astounding.

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
12.17.2015 , 10:23 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by dscount View Post
I'd suggest you speak with your wallet. Seems to be the only means now.

Since they gave middle finger to NIM OPS I've not had a lot of sympathy for BW losing people.
Unfortunately, that is the only way BioWare, especially EA will at least 'listen' albeit momentarily when that option is used
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Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
12.17.2015 , 10:34 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Shwarzchild View Post
I understand the frustrations of the people who come on here to vent. I do. I sympathize. The content I love to dive into is the end game pve raids. I don't have anything new to do. That doesn't stop me from raiding. Maybe if I didn't have the team I do, or the friendships in game that I do, I might feel like I should explore other titles. Thankfully, I don't need to change one thing.

The real issue I have with these types of angry vent posts is that we all knew we weren't getting any more content this year. This was it. That fact wasn't going to magically change. We knew that next year the cycle started for the monthly releases. I'll agree that Bioware's ability to meet a monthly cadence for releasing content should be watched and paid attention to since they never have been able to come through on that kind of a promise. They've definitely made it before. And, they crashed on it. I just think these kinds of angry posts are about 2 months too early. February is the month I have my eye on. If they try to sweep everything under the rug by focusing solely on this new pvp map without even a word on anything else then yeah I'll raise the concern meter to the next level. Right now though, there are some things that I think are absolutely dumb founding such as the 224 loot issue. Right now though, we all knew that this was vacation time for the devs. It was spelled out plain as day. So I do feel like people are going all over the place when the schedule was plain as day to see and spelled out before. It's the paying attention factor.

Endgame needs love. We know it. I assume Bioware knows it. Two months with no new content is nothing new, and for me, and people like myself, those two months will definitely fly by. But, that's going to be the time to raise questions. Now though, is not. Red flag stuff all anyone may want to, but acting like Bioware broke a promise to released content this year is foolish.

Me specifically, I'm looking for a "state of the game" post that gives actual details to the plan they want to follow for 2016. If they go generic and produce bumper sticker talk I'll be concerned. If they don't mention a new operation, I'll be concerned. If they basically try to go ho hum we're keeping the status quo I'll be concerned then, but not now.

Cool your jets people. It sucks, but people get into problems when they jump too far forward. The humanized version of standing in stupid I'd say.
I think you miss is a few things.

First they also said they would start on new elder game once KotFE launched... That time line is a direct quote from the SDCC Cantina. Now there is no news whatsoever?

Second yes all about the story BUT in the past the "story" at least involved stuff on new planets that were repeatable... Makeb, Oricon, Rishi, Yavin etc. This time it means stuff we already did before with forced level sync.

Third: all of the bugs, an attack on exploiters (good) that rounded up more than a few innocent people (bad), and that exploit took almost 2 months to fix?. The broken event, the companion debacle? The server issues with server rests resulting in server rollbacks that cost people REAL LIFE $$$ in lost Cartel market purchases that they either can not of will not address, refund?

The stringing along of people who want playable content, not just OPs but solo too, is simply the foundation of the frustration. Everything else has piled upon it. It is NOT just about raids, but for some reason I see people who jump to BWs defense lately amost reflexively say "raids". I don't know if it is because they simply have blinders on or think that the word is controversial enough to obfuscate the other issues.

I have played MMORPGs for almost 20 years now. I have seen stuff like this when a game initially launches BUT never in a game that is 4 years old. Pretty much from any objective analysis this expac has been one mistake after another. I know players who are almost exclusive story players who have had it with BW at this point.
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

Cedia's Avatar


Cedia
12.17.2015 , 10:35 PM | #23
The story bugs are really killing it for me. (See link in signature.)

I took two characters into KotFE and both had no acknowledgement of their romances. I rerolled one of them, because I'm really hoping that they care enough to fix this. But I've been playing around with a bunch of other characters that are still going through their storylines because I don't even want to gamble on it again.

Really, BioWare, I'd love to play the new content that I paid for. Too bad it's broken.
* Female Mandalorians who romanced Torian are missing his Resol'nare and Mando'a lessons conversations since 4.0 launched. * Please fix this!!! *

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
12.17.2015 , 10:47 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Cedia View Post
The story bugs are really killing it for me. (See link in signature.)

I took two characters into KotFE and both had no acknowledgement of their romances. I rerolled one of them, because I'm really hoping that they care enough to fix this. But I've been playing around with a bunch of other characters that are still going through their storylines because I don't even want to gamble on it again.

Really, BioWare, I'd love to play the new content that I paid for. Too bad it's broken.
On my female Jugg, I completed all the companion story missions except one. That was with Vette. I never got to do the one with her mother. I gave her enough goodies to get her to level 14 but nothing happened. They broke the companions completely with 4.0 and they have no idea how to fix it. That's some great work there.
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CrazyCT's Avatar


CrazyCT
12.17.2015 , 10:48 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghisallo View Post
I think you miss is a few things.

First they also said they would start on new elder game once KotFE launched... That time line is a direct quote from the SDCC Cantina. Now there is no news whatsoever?

Second yes all about the story BUT in the past the "story" at least involved stuff on new planets that were repeatable... Makeb, Oricon, Rishi, Yavin etc. This time it means stuff we already did before with forced level sync.

Third: all of the bugs, an attack on exploiters (good) that rounded up more than a few innocent people (bad), and that exploit took almost 2 months to fix?. The broken event, the companion debacle? The server issues with server rests resulting in server rollbacks that cost people REAL LIFE $$$ in lost Cartel market purchases that they either can not of will not address, refund?

The stringing along of people who want playable content, not just OPs but solo too, is simply the foundation of the frustration. Everything else has piled upon it. It is NOT just about raids, but for some reason I see people who jump to BWs defense lately amost reflexively say "raids". I don't know if it is because they simply have blinders on or think that the word is controversial enough to obfuscate the other issues.

I have played MMORPGs for almost 20 years now. I have seen stuff like this when a game initially launches BUT never in a game that is 4 years old. Pretty much from any objective analysis this expac has been one mistake after another. I know players who are almost exclusive story players who have had it with BW at this point.
"Start on elder game" doesn't mean release new content. The reason there's no news might simply be that they haven't got it out of the first planning stage, so there's nothing to tell. They're not going to release the minutes of every meeting just so you can feel satisfied that they are giving you news.

True, we got new planets with past expansions - CZ (does it count?), Makeb, Oricon, Rishi, Yavin, Ziost.... not like this one where we got Ondessa and Yakuul, setting it up for the next chapters to come. Wait a second......

Third.....actually you do have a bit of a point here, kinda reminds me of the 15 billion posts we've had in the last couple of weeks mentioning the exact same points. Oh, apart from the bit where you say people lost REAL LIFE $$$ in rollbacks. People are getting the stuff the bought of the market back (or a refund) since they just have to show the page from your account that shows every Cartel Coin transaction that has taken place (ie proof, and not just "chancing their arm" to see if they can get some free stuff).

Stringing along - I know it's not happened yet, but they have been setting it up - is that what you call releasing new content every month? Maybe you could call HBO and tell them that they are just stringing you along only giving you 1 episode of Game of Thrones every week.

I especially like where you "casually" throw in that you've played MMO's for 20 years. You must be such an expert [Insert Wonka face here]
"An argument must have opposition if it is to prove itself."
Queen of the White Knights <==== Click to pay tribute to your Queen
Once managed to use "Obfuscate" in a sentence. Allegedly sounds like.....Robbie Williams?

Shwarzchild's Avatar


Shwarzchild
12.17.2015 , 11:00 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghisallo View Post
I think you miss is a few things.

First they also said they would start on new elder game once KotFE launched... That time line is a direct quote from the SDCC Cantina. Now there is no news whatsoever?

Second yes all about the story BUT in the past the "story" at least involved stuff on new planets that were repeatable... Makeb, Oricon, Rishi, Yavin etc. This time it means stuff we already did before with forced level sync.

Third: all of the bugs, an attack on exploiters (good) that rounded up more than a few innocent people (bad), and that exploit took almost 2 months to fix?. The broken event, the companion debacle? The server issues with server rests resulting in server rollbacks that cost people REAL LIFE $$$ in lost Cartel market purchases that they either can not of will not address, refund?

The stringing along of people who want playable content, not just OPs but solo too, is simply the foundation of the frustration. Everything else has piled upon it. It is NOT just about raids, but for some reason I see people who jump to BWs defense lately amost reflexively say "raids". I don't know if it is because they simply have blinders on or think that the word is controversial enough to obfuscate the other issues.

I have played MMORPGs for almost 20 years now. I have seen stuff like this when a game initially launches BUT never in a game that is 4 years old. Pretty much from any objective analysis this expac has been one mistake after another. I know players who are almost exclusive story players who have had it with BW at this point.
Question, do you think I'm referring to raids above all? I didn't intend to. It's just my main area of gaming. As I said there are quite a few things that I am tracking. The point being that expecting more content to be released before next year is foolish. We know it to be that way since we were told that this is what we were getting for the remainder of this year. Yes, I am aware of that line that they would begin working on a new operation post launch of Kotfe, and I am extremely annoyed that their post said "oh yeah no new pve content is being developed right now outside of the remaining story chapters". They've done this song and dance bumper sticker talk before with the "oh we won't let the gap between new raids go this long again!" Which is subsequently why it's absolutely on my radar. I notice their seemingly brainless philosophy towards 224 gear, the removal of kp and ev nim because they were too easy all while including even easier hardmode versions in a highlighted fashion that can be 5-7 manned in 188 free 60 gear. So I'm absolutely 100 percent looking at them going...exactly what kind of direction are you trying to go with here? I think I might have an answer, but that answer isn't substantiated with a) enough time to validate or b) enough data to validate. It's simply jumping at shadows. Specifically regarding raiding, any raider who thought they'd have a new operation before June or July was also being a tad bit foolish. We're simply trying to look ahead in the future too heavily.

To respond to the claim I'm missing things, yes I notice that this month has been friggin terrible for bioware. It's almost comical how bad it's been. But, this is a small snap shot in time. And, that by no means actually means this game is in the weeds. Do I agree with the moves they've made? Not entirely. I'm intrigued by the "story dlc" model in so far as they understand that the balance between group content and story content should be maintained. As of now we have no real knowledge that it is, or will be. Even so, they've said that February is their month to "talk" per say. So that's when I will listen, and form my own judgments. People who sit there and claim that oh because of x y and z the 31 percent of the sub increase has eroded are plain silly. For all they know the sub increase could still be up 27 percent, or insert whatever arbitrary number you may like. The fact is we have no idea. It's just extrapolating off of attempting to read between the lines. Which, usually, isn't accurate. It reminds me of people trying to discern emotion from text messages, and then failing miserably at the conclusions they've come to.

Some of what you posted isn't fact, for instance repeatable content. They absolutely added repeatable content. They redid the heroics, they added the alliance system, they made companion influence relevant (in the idea that it has a new goal to work towards), and they nudged us towards star fortresses. So in fact, there is repeatable content. Whether you, or me, or anyone, truly likes it or approves of it is purely subjective and only time (more time than we currently have under the belt) will tell the tale. What I find laughable is this idea that "this is it!".

I commend you always for logically posting things on this forum. It's a breath of fresh air generally from the rampant over emotional non sense tons of posters push forward. However logical your conclusions may be, I do tend to see your current fight in multiple threads as a very well reasoned argument built on a foundation of ideas that aren't truly factual.

I'm not attempting to defend Bioware. Certainly, there are things at work that currently I'm wondering why on. However, a lot of arguments and the conclusions they're forming are 100 percent based on unknowns.

I typically don't take issue with people venting. It's only natural to vent in a fashion where you have complete anonymity. No repercussions. In a sense it's healthy. What I think I'm fed up with at this point is the over rationalization of incorrect assumptions. Or even posters blatantly ignoring what we already know to be true then inserting their own ideas into those spaces acting as if they're new post is the true statement. They aren't. They have as little idea as the rest of us.

The idea that we have very little idea is concerning, but honestly when have we ever been so aprised of information anyway? When have bug fixes not taken the same time as they've taken currently, and we can still point to previous exploits like Ravagers as an example that amidst all of that the game still grew in light of 4.0.

I'm losing my own train of thought out of sheer annoyance with posters so if any of that made any sense, or debated any of your points great. If not, well I apologize for having you sift through this pile of words,. I guess the glass half full is that I at least put it in paragraph form?
Warstalker Isaac Bell The Revanchist From Beyond

Morthion's Avatar


Morthion
12.17.2015 , 11:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghisallo View Post
So how do you get growth? You do it by the changes they made here. Now the existing story fan might like it, but that is going to be short lived imo because it is just one story and it is phased release. I mean lets be honest, the story is no more or less engaging than SoR. Heck I would argue less because at least in SoR I had a little class specific chapter. The rest of the game, the streamlined leveling, level sync, bolster, instant level 60s etc. it's ALL about that new player coming in and saying "OMG this game is HUGE!!!!" But for the existing player who focuses at least as much on actual play, regardless if it is solo, FP or OP, they have nothing but recycled content.
I'm doubting that people who always want something new or they leave are actually long-term customers. I'm also not certain that people have an absolute aversion to familiarity in a game. Once I've gone through each of the eight advanced classes, I can do it for the other alignment. Then I can do it for the other gender. If I were of the bent, I could go through it with each companion. I recognize that there are players out there who would find such a process excruciating rather than enjoyable. I'm just not certain of the relative proportions of each. It's possible that the portion of the player base generating the most consistent revenue for the game is not that which only shows up when there's something new and only stays if they constantly have new things to do. I therefore don't think people who replay games they enjoy should be discounted out of hand.

Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
12.17.2015 , 11:25 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by CrazyCT View Post
"Start on elder game" doesn't mean release new content. The reason there's no news might simply be that they haven't got it out of the first planning stage, so there's nothing to tell. They're not going to release the minutes of every meeting just so you can feel satisfied that they are giving you news.

True, we got new planets with past expansions - CZ (does it count?), Makeb, Oricon, Rishi, Yavin, Ziost.... not like this one where we got Ondessa and Yakuul, setting it up for the next chapters to come. Wait a second......

Third.....actually you do have a bit of a point here, kinda reminds me of the 15 billion posts we've had in the last couple of weeks mentioning the exact same points. Oh, apart from the bit where you say people lost REAL LIFE $$$ in rollbacks. People are getting the stuff the bought of the market back (or a refund) since they just have to show the page from your account that shows every Cartel Coin transaction that has taken place (ie proof, and not just "chancing their arm" to see if they can get some free stuff).

Stringing along - I know it's not happened yet, but they have been setting it up - is that what you call releasing new content every month? Maybe you could call HBO and tell them that they are just stringing you along only giving you 1 episode of Game of Thrones every week.

I especially like where you "casually" throw in that you've played MMO's for 20 years. You must be such an expert [Insert Wonka face here]
I know it doesn't mean release it, I am not an idiot so please don't be patronizing. What it means however if that in the announcement where Eric said "no new on PvE" (note not elder game so that means legit new repeatable solo content as well) indicates they haven't even started on it. I would not expect new content of that sort until MAYBE August or September at the earliest if they started it last month. No news at all, not even a "we are working on development now and we will give you a release time frame when we see how fast we are progressing" would be acceptable. No news? Not so much.

Next, you are being obtuse. Is there new repeatable content on either of those new planets? Nope. Odessen is basically the new fleet where we get quests to go and do what we have done 1000 times before. Zakuul is essentially a solo instance and it is not repeatable. So again, wrong.

Well funny that because A LOT of the people who saw that are calling BS on your claim. Why don't you check your account, I just did to confirm it. Other than when I get coins what do I see..."oh wait"... "In game purchase.". That's it....in game purchase and while I have seen ONE person make the claim you did, that they can see the items they bought, EVERYONE else has said they see what I said. So try again

As for stringing along I am not referring to the near exlusive story fan that sees the game play as a necessary evil. I am talking about the solo player who likes the story but was looking for a new world to explore, the person with a small group of friends who wanted a new FP to enjoy with them and yes the person who likes doing stuff with 8-16 people.

The fact you have to ignore salient features (such as the difference between our two new worlds and the past) a need to resort to patronizing language and ad hominems to defend a position. Usually that is illustrative of a weaker position.
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

Ghisallo's Avatar


Ghisallo
12.17.2015 , 11:40 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Morthion View Post
I'm doubting that people who always want something new or they leave are actually long-term customers. I'm also not certain that people have an absolute aversion to familiarity in a game. Once I've gone through each of the eight advanced classes, I can do it for the other alignment. Then I can do it for the other gender. If I were of the bent, I could go through it with each companion. I recognize that there are players out there who would find such a process excruciating rather than enjoyable. I'm just not certain of the relative proportions of each. It's possible that the portion of the player base generating the most consistent revenue for the game is not that which only shows up when there's something new and only stays if they constantly have new things to do. I therefore don't think people who replay games they enjoy should be discounted out of hand.
On the first part you are only half right, and I do have facts to prove this. Now sometimes people don't like the new stuff or a game period so yes they will leave regardless BUT an MMORPG, like this one was, one with a PvE based persistent world needs new content on a regular basis. You can actually look into the past and see it illustrated in MMORPG sub rates, Store (when it was around) and Raptr #'s etc. You can also go to BW's own presentation at GDC 2013. In essence Year after year the subscription rates/active players look like a sine wave.

In essence the activity goes up as you come close to an expac launch or content update and then peaks in these areas. Then as players run out of stuff to do (no new quests, no more gearing up to do for mains and/or alts, no new story) the sub rates decline only to begin a climb back up with the next content update or expac. That is why development schedules are so important.

You can even see BW acknowledging this in the design of this expac. IF people don't care about new stuff why a phased release of the story and then all the subscription rewards to stop people from binge watching? Heck they mentioned binge watching in the livestream? It again comes back to what they found out at launch. From Brian Ohlen...

Quote:

Based on BioWare's pre-launch metrics, the team expected players to get through the content in three or four months. This assessment might seem obviously wrong to an experienced MMO player, but we are talking about a game with extensive voiceover and literally thousands of cinematic cutscenes adding up to about 170 to 180 hours of content. So the devs anticipated that TOR would take more consecutive days to complete than the average MMO. But according to BioWare's metrics, players were tearing through the content an average of 40 hours a week; some players spent more than 120 hours a week in the game. "Within four and five weeks, we suddenly had close to a half a million people at the endgame," Ohlen said. "It was something we didn't expect at all." Players were unsatisfied and began to exit the game
Now in that context elder game does NOT just mean raids/OPs but everything... end game solo quests, FPs, OPs, simply stuff to do. It is a rare player that will just play KOTOR or DA:O non-stop, day after day, week after week and month after month for a year or more.

Now with that out of the way, I have detailed elsewhere, as have others how this game was made on a smaller budget than previous expansions, how the game itself, according to earnings calls has not been performing to expectations AND perhaps most importantly how the CFO at Q3 2015 call basically publically called out BW to grow specifically because of the new movie.

This expac is about new players, they sold it as they did simply to try and minimize existing player losses. It really is that simple.
...We always arise from our own ashes. Everything returns later in its... changed form...
...To remind you that all humans make mistakes, and that all leaders are but human.
---Leto, Lion of Atreides

CrazyCT's Avatar


CrazyCT
12.17.2015 , 11:59 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghisallo View Post
I know it doesn't mean release it, I am not an idiot so please don't be patronizing. What it means however if that in the announcement where Eric said "no new on PvE" (note not elder game so that means legit new repeatable solo content as well) indicates they haven't even started on it. I would not expect new content of that sort until MAYBE August or September at the earliest if they started it last month. No news at all, not even a "we are working on development now and we will give you a release time frame when we see how fast we are progressing" would be acceptable. No news? Not so much.

Next, you are being obtuse. Is there new repeatable content on either of those new planets? Nope. Odessen is basically the new fleet where we get quests to go and do what we have done 1000 times before. Zakuul is essentially a solo instance and it is not repeatable. So again, wrong.

Well funny that because A LOT of the people who saw that are calling BS on your claim. Why don't you check your account, I just did to confirm it. Other than when I get coins what do I see..."oh wait"... "In game purchase.". That's it....in game purchase and while I have seen ONE person make the claim you did, that they can see the items they bought, EVERYONE else has said they see what I said. So try again

As for stringing along I am not referring to the near exlusive story fan that sees the game play as a necessary evil. I am talking about the solo player who likes the story but was looking for a new world to explore, the person with a small group of friends who wanted a new FP to enjoy with them and yes the person who likes doing stuff with 8-16 people.

The fact you have to ignore salient features (such as the difference between our two new worlds and the past) a need to resort to patronizing language and ad hominems to defend a position. Usually that is illustrative of a weaker position.
Ah, you can't beat a bit of pontification. (To pontificate is express one's opinions in a pompous and dogmatic way <---Now THAT'S patronizing) As Hemingway said "[Do you] really think big emotions come from big words?"

It's really quite amusing, especially since you seem to have completely forgotten all your grammar in that first paragraph. If you want to try again, and this time make it so that it makes some kind of sense, then maybe I can retort. The only thing I can make out is that you don't expect to have any content till August or September (which shows a remarkable insight into the planning, coding and testing process, as well as how many people they have working on it), but you want news of it now? I think they'd maybe at least wait until they had a solid plan of what they were trying to achieve, and maybe get some feedback from the coding team to see if it's feasible, before they come running to tell you what's happening. Rest assured, they've got your email address and when it becomes absolutely essential to the continuation of the game that you find out, they'll let you know.

A lot of people are calling BS on a claim that other people claimed? Who are your "lot of people"? I've got 2 guys in my guild who got their stuff returned in the first phone call. You've got.....some people on a forum that you don't even know? Do YOU want to try again? Yes, it only says you made a purchase, but on the other hand it says you made a purchase. You know, kinda like a receipt or something, that you can use as proof of purchase. If I bought something at, I don't know, 500cc that got removed in the roll back, and my receipt says I bought something for 500cc recently (i.e. in the time that was lost due to the rollback), it doesn't take a genius of your calibre to work it out.

And there IS a new world to explore, it's just that it's obviously gated in the story, like the arena in the cantina, that's already been revealed to be part of the next chapter. Maybe if the children in the audience can hold on just a little longer, they'll get to see it. Kinda reminds me of Terry Pratchett - "wanna wanna wanna sweetie......NOW". And you DID get a new FP (actually several, if a bit similar), just because you choose to solo it, doesn't make it NOT an FP.
"An argument must have opposition if it is to prove itself."
Queen of the White Knights <==== Click to pay tribute to your Queen
Once managed to use "Obfuscate" in a sentence. Allegedly sounds like.....Robbie Williams?