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His parse is for 3436.56. When you pull it back to the "enter combat" and set the limit to 5 minutes it comes out to 3358.31. A changed of 78.25 dps. In your example You give him an extra minute on the parse. These are just details, however there is a point to it (I am not picking them out just to argue). Saboteur (with scaterbombs) is not necessarily a sustained or "build up" spec. The damage comes strictly from the 20 second CD on HI/CE. It becomes a burst spec with dots that keep some damage going. Cut a log before they go off, the dps falls. Cut a log after it has been used dps rises. The damage the spec does can be manipulated on paper for a desired result.

 

Different specs require a different amount of set up to do damage. If we are talking about sustained, how about I run a Lethality/Dirty Fighting parse and cut it to only start when the first Cull/Wounding Shots starts (Eliminating the dots in the beginning for set up). This would allow be to get rid of the "ramp up time" and focus more on sustained because Lethality/Dirty Fighting focus's on the proper use of Cull/Wounding Shots. This method is not true to the spec considering what it actually does.

 

If you analyze a Watchmen Sentinels parse, you would have to cur everything before the 6 stacks of Juyo and 4 stacks of Merciless Slash. So, if I where parsing on my sentinel (by your rules) I would initiate combat --> build focus and centering (saving Master Strike and Zen) until I get my stacks of both buffs --> I would then begin doing damage with all relics and adrenals going with Zen and Inspiration at my. I would then cut my log in the begining to eliminate all of the build up of focus, centering, Juyo and Merc Slash. The log would run for 5 minutes following. This would give me a better idea of what sustained damage I would be doing.

 

To give a representation of this, I got on my LvL 50 sentinel and went to fleet (yes I had to deal with that nasty lag) and parsed on the LvL 10 training dummy. I had to use that one to ensure I hit with my abilities since the rest are LvL 55 (My gear was a full 63 BiS build from pre 2.0....it included accuarcy stats). Here are my results:

 

Not Clipped: (2433.68) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/2/0/Damage+Dealt

End Clipped: (2421.23) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/time/1369260371/1369260671/0/Damage+Dealt

Beginning and End Clipped: (2477.75) http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/time/1369260426/1369260726/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Now I ask, which log gives me my sustained damage, my damage threshold and my realistic damage?

 

The moral of the story here is that importing logs that were created under a different rule set skews the data in favor of trimming the beginning of each log. It sets those logs (unfairly) above the rest for no reason but to measure an e-peen by presenting data in a different fashion.

 

 

On the note of measuring fairness and actual thresholds on a global scale, I would put forth the following rule set:

 

 

 

1) Must be combat logged on the level 55 Operations Training Target MK-5.

2) Must be combat logged to a 5 minute duration. (Ending will be clipped 300 seconds after beginning combat)

3) Must include the "Enter Combat" (No clipping the begining)

4) Class buffs/stims/adrenals are permitted.

5) Another player is allowed to assist with 1Bloodthirst/Inspiration and Armour debuff etc during the logging.

6) Nightmare Pilgrim buff is not permitted.

7) No use of Legacy abilities.

8) Only combat logs from http://www.torparse.com/ will be accepted. All claims must be accompanied by a link to their parse.

 

What this does is set ALL classes on as much of an even playing field as possible considering what they would do within a raid. The only advantages that are left are multiple targets and executes (built in or added ability). Ramp up times stay the same, Inspiration is available to all along with an armor crack.

 

 

 

 

 

Let me get right on that for you :p been trying to get a nice MM parse, but I keep getting thrown out of combat :(

 

I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.

His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change.

I don't think it's fair for you to say that the difference is almost 80dps.

I think the parses should be at least 5 min, after which the parse can be cropped to the highest dps point in time.

This would show the MAXIMUM dps that a spec can attain after at least 5 min of combat.

Watchman does benefit quite a bit from Juyo and Merciless Stacking though and you will see a large increase for that spec.

 

However looking back at your watchman parse here is a Maximized dps number with the ramp up time.

 

2473

http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/time/1369260371/1369260827/0/Overview

 

~ 4dps difference between your beggining and end clip.

Edited by rsuhandy
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I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.

His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change

that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

 

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez :p

 

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

 

*hey terror from beyond dude! wazup mate? can i put my corrosive grenade and corrosive dart and interrogation probe and shatter shot and explosive probe and THEN ill Cull and THEN we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do 1337 deepyy'ess. thanks budddy!*

 

ugh :confused:

Edited by paowee
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I have to say I don't really agree with you that the parse has to be cropped at exactly 5 min.

His parse is 3419 even with the enter combat state which is ~18 dps difference so not that much of a change.

I don't think it's fair for you to say that the difference is almost 80dps.

I think the parses should be at least 5 min, after which the parse can be cropped to the highest dps point in time.

This would show the MAXIMUM dps that a spec can attain after at least 5 min of combat.

Watchman does benefit quite a bit from Juyo and Merciless Stacking though and you will see a large increase for that spec.

 

However looking back at your watchman parse here is a Maximized dps number with the ramp up time.

 

2473

http://www.torparse.com/a/244058/time/1369260371/1369260827/0/Overview

 

~ 4dps difference between your beggining and end clip.

 

In mine specifically there were other factors that prevented the margin from being shown, namely that nasty fleet lag. It is just meant to give an idea of how clipping effects the overall numbers.

 

As far as the other parse in question; since it dragged out longer and ENDED with the scatter bombs, it caused the numbers to go waaaaaaaay up. Scatter bombs are quite unique. If you end a parse with them your numbers will be far better then if you end it before them. That is why his numbers are higher in the long run, not because that is the maximum for the spec. If you were to stretch it out just 13 more seconds it would be 3372.83. A loss of ~46 dps from the cropping of 3419 DPS. (For referance sake, here is the parse only showing 5 minutes 3358.31)

 

Do you see how dangerous cropping logs is? If we want any sort of accurate numbers and thresholds, we need the circumstances as close to the same as we can get them. (That includes time and buffs. The only thing we can not account for is built in executes due to talents and abilities.) An argument can be made that if I want accurate numbers, I should examine the log and crop it to compare with mine.........but that kind of defeats the purpose of having global leader-boards for it, doesn't it? It would be the same is if, they didn't track golf scores on a board for everyone to see and forced whoever wanted to know what the scores were to go check the individual cards of the players..................................

 

that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

 

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez :p

 

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

 

*hey terror from beyond dude! wasup brother? can i put my 3 dots and my armor pen and my EP on you first before i Cull and then we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do damages. thanks budddy!*

 

ugh :confused:

 

lmfao :jawa_angel:

Edited by Grimsblood
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In mine specifically there were other factors that prevented the margin from being shown, namely that nasty fleet lag. It is just meant to give an idea of how clipping effects the overall numbers.

 

As far as the other parse in question; since it dragged out longer and ENDED with the scatter bombs, it caused the numbers to go waaaaaaaay up. Scatter bombs are quite unique. If you end a parse with them your numbers will be far better then if you end it before them. That is why his numbers are higher in the long run, not because that is the maximum for the spec. If you were to stretch it out just 13 more seconds it would be 3372.83. A loss of ~46 dps from the cropping of 3419 DPS. (For referance sake, here is the parse only showing 5 minutes 3358.31)

 

Do you see how dangerous cropping logs is? If we want any sort of accurate numbers and thresholds, we need the circumstances as close to the same as we can get them. (That includes time and buffs. The only thing we can not account for is built in executes due to talents and abilities.) An argument can be made that if I want accurate numbers, I should examine the log and crop it to compare with mine.........but that kind of defeats the purpose of having global leader-boards for it, doesn't it? It would be the same is if, they didn't track golf scores on a board for everyone to see and forced whoever wanted to know what the scores were to go check the individual cards of the players..................................

 

 

 

lmfao :jawa_angel:

 

 

I do hear what you are saying but to make a point I will be blunt.

Who are you to say the parse should be 5 minutes exactly?

I can put his parse length to 5 min and 27 seconds and it's about ~3390.

Taking a parse and cutting it at 5 min will just give whoever got lucky RNG at the 5 min mark have the highest parse. I personally don't really care if people clip the start of the parse, but I see a valid argument behind not doing so. But I see no reason to limit the time period to exactly 5 min.

Edited by rsuhandy
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I do hear what you are saying but to make a point I will be blunt.

Who are you to say the parse should be 5 minutes exactly?

I can put his parse length to 5 min and 27 seconds and it's about ~3390.

Taking a parse and cutting it at 5 min will just give whoever got lucky RNG at the 5 min mark have the highest parse. I personally don't really care if people clip the start of the parse, but I see a valid argument behind not doing so. But I see no reason to limit the time period to exactly 5 min.

 

I don't think it has to be 5 minutes; so long as everyone uses the same time frame. If that where to be 10 minutes or 7 minutes and 27.34 seconds it wouldn't matter to me. The point is, you can cut the log where you want to inflate the numbers.......that should not be happening (see my example above regarding golf for reason as to why it matters on a list such as this).

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that is subjective. let me speak for most of the parsers and say, any change is a big change when it comes to DPS.

 

for pete's sakes people just DONT clip the beginning of the parse. the fight starts when you HIT the friggin dummy! jeez :p

 

*hey styrak my man, let us engage in combat but i ask you kindly please do not hit me until i have all my juyo stacks up!*

 

*hey terror from beyond dude! wasup brother? can i put my 3 dots and my armor pen and my EP on you first before i Cull and then we can start the figtht? im sry bro i need to put my dots up first in order to do damages. thanks budddy!*

 

ugh :confused:

 

You are right dps change is subjective.

I should have said 3-4 fold less of a dps increase than previously suggested.

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You are right dps change is subjective.

I should have said 3-4 fold less of a dps increase than previously suggested.

Yeah i think 3 or 4 is little. But 18 not so much :o Edited by paowee
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I don't think it has to be 5 minutes; so long as everyone uses the same time frame. If that where to be 10 minutes or 7 minutes and 27.34 seconds it wouldn't matter to me. The point is, you can cut the log where you want to inflate the numbers.......that should not be happening (see my example above regarding golf for reason as to why it matters on a list such as this).

 

I guess it depends on the goal of the thread.

I feel like trimming the parse to where you like gives less variability as people will post their highest dps.

If you are asking for ball park average numbers that a spec will pull over x amount of time then I would agree with you.

However that still doesn't prevent people from timing their biggest hits to land right at that time mark and inflating their dps.

 

If I understand your goal then I don't think setting a fixed time period will completely solve the problem although it would deflate dps numbers and be a better representation of what a class can pull.

 

I guess it depends on what you want to see.

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My goal when I'm parsing is to get as close to 5 or 6 minutes as possible and then stop. I won't parse for extensive periods of time and look for a best 5 or anything like that because I don't feel it is indicative of the ACTUAL game. Raid DPS on Ops bosses involve RNG. You will have bad runs with your procs. You'll screw up and use the wrong ability, etc.

 

I agree with Grimsblood, set a time. It's how I generally look at the really high DPS parses anyway. I find where they actually started combat and clip it@5 minutes.

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I don't think it has to be 5 minutes; so long as everyone uses the same time frame. If that where to be 10 minutes or 7 minutes and 27.34 seconds it wouldn't matter to me. The point is, you can cut the log where you want to inflate the numbers.......that should not be happening (see my example above regarding golf for reason as to why it matters on a list such as this).

 

Tbh i think you are having a huge nerd rage here lol (no offense) but its kind of pointless in my opinion doing so many "rules" to the parse, the start trim, is understandable, boarder made a good parody of it, make sense, the rest, is i dont know, you trying to be the top parse? i dont understand, we CANT compare, most people use biochem, most people use blue biochem (better stat), some people dont use adrenals, some people have less lag than others, it varies.. if you want Parse to cut at 5 minute, what everyone will do is save the bomb at 4:50 and do it to get a peak dmg/dps.... it is dummy dps = find the way you can do to maximize your dps with ideal situations that wont happen.

 

there are a lot of factors and RNG, everyone here know, the top parse on every class are normally "lucky" parse... myself i did that 1964 and i havent been able to repeat, fall short at 2940-50, simple, so anywhere between 100-150 under the top ranked parse is actually the AVG. good dps for that class.

 

the same way Boarder said.. you are not in a styrak fight and when u are at 5 minutes with 2800 dps you do /KillStyrakForMy5MinuteParse do you?...so 5 is just a number to simulate the quickest possible boss fight, if you want to measure real numbers do in TorParse boss Fights, which are inaccurate as well, some fights are longer, some fights have different strats, different groups, better dps group = higher dps = shorter fight.

 

So my point is on this argument, start trim = invalid... done... ending trim after 5 minutes = Valid... done... do the parse with that rule, post your best number, compare to the rest with same rules, as a matter of fact i am sure 90% or more of the game population dont even bother Parsing dummy + uploading + posting here, so even if you are 1st ranked here thinking you are top one, theres a BIG chance there are a few more people that parse the same or higher... Same with Torparse bosses, everyone parse, mayority just dont post it, even with group upload i cant make my group to post it, where my 3 other dps have same dps sometimes higher than me, and i am top 1-15th in like almost every fight, they dont like to upload, thats their problem, not mine, and like them, there are probably 10-20-30 more guilds / DPSers that do the same, achieve an insane number, and dont care (like us, i am one of those that love this, so not judging) and dont post it

 

Conclusion: follow the rules, post your numbers, compare with the people here, knowing there is a big chance there are quiet a few people that are probably better / higher parse than you / us, than simply, dont upload them. most of the people in good guilds here are at around the top, in my server, i am sure no one in this thread have ever heard of Tyranny... 100% sure if u are not in the Harbringer, and i know by fact that beastfury has beaten and been top 1-3 ranked mara since TorParse is up, so being in the "best guild in your server" doesnt mean you have the best "DPS". Tyranny is the 5-6th Ranked guild in my server, him and tralt lead almost all rankings, like them there are probably 5-10 more on each server.

 

PD: my main language is not english, so dont start like people in reddit being a Grammar Police here thx :)

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text
I like to use parses to compare between same spec/class, not different classes. Check this quick one i made for Engineering over at the Sniper forums. I cropped the fights so they start at the beginning and end at 5min 11secs

OFFTOPIC:

Analyzing Engineering Parses < All EPEEN ASIDE >

 

Points to look out for. At 312 seconds you need to have:

~220 Electrified Railgun hits

~100 Scatter Bomb hits

~100 SoS hits or 25 uses

~145 Plasma probe hits

~110 Interrogation Probe hits

~80 Corrosive dart hits

~11 Explosive Probe hits

~20 Orbital if you use 2pc pvp bonus. 15 if you use pve bonus.

~Snipe, (Ambush) will vary depending on your energy management and implementation of your priority list

 

These numbers are close to impossible to achieve. You might reach 70 or 90% of the quota but i have yet to see a parse that got it everything to 100%. The closer you can get your abilities to hit these numbers (with some key abilities prioritized over others e.g. Scatter bombs and SoS) then the more DPS you will do. Think of it as Engineering's Kobayashi Maru. :rolleyes:

 

As you can see I messed up my Scatter Bombs by 3 due to positioning. I was able to hit the target number for SoS. Because i spam Snipe a lot my Electrified Railgun stacks are quite high but this had the unintended effect of lowering my uptime on CD and IP. I barely hit the quote for PP and when i compare to Evryday he had one more PP compared to me. My armor pen debuff were spot on and i did not clip them (6 hits) compared to the others who had 8. Etc etc.

 

Default: 5 minutess 11seconds

B'oarder 3393 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/233669/time/1368863523/1368863835/0/Damage+Dealt

Ignore the DPS numbers. What is more important here is the # of hits.

 

1) Aeralos' zOmG 3437 parse http://www.torparse.com/a/236380/time/1368916080/1368916426/0/Overview

-clipped and cropped to produce the highest DPS.

-now pulling this to down to our "default" settings we have this: 3345 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/236380/time/1368916078/1368916389/0/Damage+Dealt

 

 

Analysis: B - Aero

Ambush 1 - 14 = used an Ambush rotation

Shatter Shot - 6 - 8 = clipped armor pen debuff (?)

Explosive Probe - 11 - 10

Cluster Bombs* - 43 - 37

Corrosive Dart - 68 - 71 = better CD uptime

Interrogation Probe - 88 - 101 = better IP uptime

Orbital Strike - 20 - 25 = used double 2pc pvp bonus

Snipe - 36 - 16 = what this tells me is he spent a lot of time capped at max energy and/or was using Ambush

Series of Shots - 25 - 24

Plasma Probe - 135 - 131

Scatter Bombs - 97 - 100 = should be 100. i think i started roll far from the dummy lol*

Electrified Railgun - 212 - 195 = due to Ambush rotation

 

2) Evrydayimsmggln http://www.torparse.com/a/233053/time/1368750939/1368751252/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Analysis: B - Evryday

Ambush 1 - 10 = used an Ambush rotation

Shatter Shot - 6 - 8

Explosive Probe - 11 - 9

Cluster Bombs* - 43 - 36

Corrosive Dart - 68 - 75

Interrogation Probe - 88 - 110

Orbital Strike - 20 - 20

Snipe - 36 - 25

Series of Shots - 25 - 24

Plasma Probe - 135 - 144

Scatter Bombs - 100* - 89 = delayed roll twice

Electrified Railgun - 212 - 205 = more Snipes compared to Aero above = better uptime on ER

 

Edited by paowee
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Nerd rage haha...I think most people on this thread would be proud of that, including me, proud to be a nerd!

 

None of it matters, the OP has the rules, live with them, "valid, done"

Edited by odawgg
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I like to use parses to compare between same spec/class, not different classes. Check this quick one i made for Engineering over at the Sniper forums. I cropped the fights so they start at the beginning and end at 5min 11secs

OFFTOPIC:

Analyzing Engineering Parses < All EPEEN ASIDE >

 

Points to look out for. At 312 seconds you need to have:

 

 

Default: 5 minutess 11seconds

B'oarder 3393 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/233669/time/1368863523/1368863835/0/Damage+Dealt

Ignore the DPS numbers. What is more important here is the # of hits.

 

1) Aeralos' zOmG 3437 parse http://www.torparse.com/a/236380/time/1368916080/1368916426/0/Overview

-clipped and cropped to produce the highest DPS.

-now pulling this to down to our "default" settings we have this: 3345 DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/236380/time/1368916078/1368916389/0/Damage+Dealt

 

 

Analysis: B - Aero

 

 

2) Evrydayimsmggln http://www.torparse.com/a/233053/time/1368750939/1368751252/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Analysis: B - Evryday

 

 

yeah i know, it just seems like people are trying to, or at least him (once again, not being rude), prove different points on other parses that we already know its "invalid" different rules, our Harbringer post is invalid here, i fixed the Parses on myself and beastfury just to reduce the start trim... so i know you can prove different points on how it is invalid, and the many different factors that each class/time/buff/CS can have, but i think we all know them :), we know we wont compare "invalid" parses with his parse, and thats it, the rule says Can trim with a min. 5 minute, thats the rule, play with it :)

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Nerd rage haha...I think most people on this thread would be proud of that, including me, proud to be a nerd!

 

None of it matters, the OP has the rules, live with them, "valid, done"

 

hehe not an insult, i am one of the biggest swtor nerds lol, just thought it was the "correct" friendly term there lol, anyways people should encourage their own servers to Parse here if we want more comparison, at this point this looks like it has 10 parses lol and the rest of the thread is conversation between Suckafish members, SG (saw your guild names in sign. dont remember everyones name :p), myself, and Start Trim Topic, but no Parses :( lol

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I think these threads are fun, but in no way represent average DPS. For example, If you use Keren's simulation for Mercenaries and set the runs to two (you can't do one, IIRC) you can see WILD swings in DPS over 5 minutes long. Several hundred DPS swings! imagine if you could do 'single runs' with his simulator. I also noted a commando's parse on the Harbringer who crit nearly 40% of his full autos! It isn't just how often you crit, but what abilities you crit on.

 

I am trying to get the DPS in my guild to understand that the Operations Dummy is a tool to use, as noted by Pizza'Da'Hutt. Truly, it is very important. On a side note - The last few times I went to the dummy, I am getting huge ability lag and things triggering the cool down, even tough abilities didn't go off. This is on my own personal ship dummy on Jedi Cov... Anyone else experience that? It probably happens 15-20 times during a 5 minute parse. I know I read a thread somewhere here about that... Anyone know how to combat that? It isn't internet lag, or video lag. Like animation lag that triggers the GCD.

 

It happens quite a bit on my sentinel as well. In fact, almost every time I use Blade Storm, it starts the animation, but doesn't actually go off and it triggers the GCD. So annoying...

Edited by Arch_Angel_Gabe
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yeah GCD and combat lag has gotten worse since last patch. There are other threads blaming it on the collections system etc. I wish they would fix it my dps parses have been taking big hits.

 

Yep. I can consistently hit 2500-2600, which is probably my 'average' but the last few times I have gone, I can't even muster much past 2300 due to the ability lag. I don't have my smuggler through the class story yet, so I have to keep begging for the critical buff. Then I head to my ship dummy to find horrible lag. Of course, this is during peak hours... I might finish up my smuggler this weekend, so I can try to ops dummy at like 3:00am in the morning or something like that to see if it is any better. The ability lag doesn't seem to happen in FPs or Operations, but is super bad on Makeb. There are times when I never experience this. All the while, my internet connection is solid at 68ms with all four bars.

 

The last few times I have been booted from the server, I noticed that Jedi Cov is 'heavy population' so I wonder how much that affects versus a lower population server.

Edited by Arch_Angel_Gabe
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I will concede this one to Ark. I cannot seem to catch my luck during the first 5-6 minutes of my parses.

 

Lift - Juggernaut - 4/36/6 Vengeance - 2765

 

I haven't been able to replicate it since and I'm better geared now. Ravage was almost 25% of my damage that run LOL

 

I think between my parse and the run of 2900 you have in that 1 parse we've shown the potential for Vengeance Juggs if they have some RNG luck. Realistically though I think we're typically a 2750ish DPS class.

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I haven't been able to replicate it since and I'm better geared now. Ravage was almost 25% of my damage that run LOL

 

I think between my parse and the run of 2900 you have in that 1 parse we've shown the potential for Vengeance Juggs if they have some RNG luck. Realistically though I think we're typically a 2750ish DPS class.

 

Yup. I'm pretty sure I was sitting at 26% in that 2900 parse. I've managed to hit just under 2900 only once since then, but I've taken to doing these shorter parses to try and chase you here. I think I'm done until my next gear upgrade, though, since at this point it's just a matter of who gets the better run of proc/crit luck.

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You Juggs/Guardian getting the Sentinel 2 piece set bonus?

 

Yes.

 

The thing Vengeance/Vigilance spec players need to understand is how reliant on RNG they are to produce the really big parses.

 

If you proc Ravage at it's expected rate of 30%, it will typically account for 20% of your damage, and your bleeds will account for 19-20%. This is going to put you in the 2700s if you're BiS or fairly close to it. You'll have plenty of runs where Ravage doesn't proc@a 30% clip and makes up 18-19% of your damage. This will be a 2600ish parse.

 

In my 2865 parse Ravage procced at nearly a 41% rate. Had it procced at the normal rate I would have lost 100-150 DPS which is obviously a huge swing. I'm sure with 2 UW relics (of which I'll need 3 tokens now because the damage proc relic I bought just isn't proccing enough to give me the returns I expected) I can replicate 2800 more frequently, but my current opinion is that the spec is a 2700-2800 spec when played and geared optimally.

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