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1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
1.4 Nerfing classes for PVP reasons, impacts PVE.../sigh
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WaywardOne's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 10:25 AM | #191
Quote: Originally Posted by HarleysRule View Post
1.3 says "hi". Not only did the devs not listen to any feedback, they didn't even reply to tell us why we were being ignored. For example, I don't recall a single post that liked the change to Guardian Slash/Crushing Blow. The feedback on Guardian/Juggernaut changes was easily 95% negative, proven by hard numbers to be a massive nerf to a class/spec that didn't need nerfing, and you pushed it through anyway. I know other 1.3 changes were also unpopular, but the JG/SJ had the most posts and negative feedback, yet somehow received no dev replies...not even a "FU" post.
1.3 was a good patch for pvp. Was it 1.3 or 1.2 where juggs were going to get a 2-sec stun after charge but that got shot down by players because it added too much resolve to the target?

Hyperlobic's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 10:53 AM | #192
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I talked to Senior Designer Austin Peckenpaugh and Senior PvP Designer Rob Hinkle about the concerns that developers allow changes made that primarily affect either PvP or PvE to negatively affect the other part of the game.

While it's true that some changes may be motivated by design requirements in one gameplay mode, we never make a change without confidence that it's fun and appropriate in all gameplay modes. We think it's natural for players to think of the game as two different sub-games and to dislike changes made for a sub-game they don't participate in, but that mindset couldn't be further from the case for us. We only ever look at the game as a complete package, and it's always our goal to deliver one cohesive and coherent gameplay experience. If, during our playtesting, we find that one experience suffers at the cost of another, we revisit our design goals and our options and reassess our approach.

Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around. Similarly, although stuns that now have a 10-meter range are irrefutably worse, we've taken measures to correct for this loss by adding a few new tools and skills to the affected classes. From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.
I don't have to play these changes on the PTS to understand the impact on my own gameplay. The changes to Overload and Electrocute are going to have a severe negative impact on the way people play those classes.

I am a hybrid lightning/madness sorc, level 50, valor 85 so I'm not exactly new to the class. My spec is built around damage and utility, and these changes are going to be fundamental and negative.

Specifically, the change from 30 meters to 10 meters for Electrocute is bad from a utility viewpoint. I use Electrocute as an interrupt, to take pressure off teammates, and the like. Being ranged DPS means being able to perform most of my actions AT RANGE. All of the talents that I use are at a 30 meter range now. And yet with the proposed change for me to use a primary utility talent I will have to run in, cast, then run back to keep out of melee range - both in PVE and PVP. This is not only a poor design choice on the designer's part, but it absolutely confirms to me that although they may know mechanically how a class is designed, the designers have no idea stylistically how these classes are played. Fundamentally, I don't need an instant self heal. I have plenty of heal capability already, plus in both PVE specifically and PVP generally I run with a healer. The self heal is superfluous. And the idea I will get the self heal while removing a primary talent's usability is, frankly, indefensible.

The changes to Overload are also heavy handed. When a light armor character is getting mobbed in PVP you don't have the time to think, move, turn, Overload. You tend to react instantly, cast Overload (hopefully with Electric Bindings talented), then try to run away for a couple of seconds to get out of range. As it stands the proposed changes are making this character class even more of a pillar hugger. And frankly I don't care if I get a "moderate" self-heal every 30 seconds or so. I'm full aug'd war hero and I'll still get burned down before getting the chance to get through one rotation, much less last long enough to get my free "heal".

Again and again I read through the forums looking at the problems players have with their classes, some really intelligently thought out solutions, only to see in the end the developers and designers do something to add to a classes inability to not only survive, but participate. I've watched the decimation of the Bounty Hunter Class and the Operative Class already. Sorcerers already went through this process, to an extent, once - and now it is happening again. If the developers want to come out and categorically state that this is going to be a game for warriors, then fine. Just say so. There is certainly that feeling throughout the forum community.

I love this game. I've missed being on one day since it's launch. One. I can't stand seeing the path that it is taking where the developers and designers can't seem to get not only the technical, but stylistic, details right. I am certain that, in the end, like the healer nerf in 1.2 people will find ways around the limitations and shortcomings of poor design choices. My problem is, though, why spend the time sticking your finger in the dike over here while the levee is breaking over there.

Like I said, just my two cents worth. Hell, I might actually look forward to the day when everyone rolls a marauder and abandons everything else. Then it will become rocket arena. At least the playing field will finally be level at that point.
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Voranis's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 11:41 AM | #193
Been playing my merc lately and I've got a couple questions ....

Mercenaries and Commandos:
•Mercenaries and Commandos now have a 30-meter interrupt, Disabling Shot. This ability interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for the next 4 seconds. This ability can be trained at level 18.
•Afterburners/Concussive Force: Rocket Punch/Stockstrike now immobilizes the target for 4 seconds instead of knocking it back. Damage caused after 2 seconds ends the effect. The knockback previously caused by this skill generated enough Resolve that it was actually detrimental to the Mercenary/Commando’s ability to further escape the attacker.
•Tracer Lock/Charged Barrel: Now each stack additionally reduces the activation time of your next Healing Scan/Advanced Medical Probe by 20% per stack.
•Kolto Residue: Now additionally snares enemies struck by your Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb by 50% for 3 seconds.
•New Bodyguard/Combat Medic skill, Peacekeeper/Frontline Medic: While protected by your own Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe, firing Rapid Shots/Hammer Shot at an enemy triggers your Kolto Shell/Trauma Probe to heal you on a separate 3-second rate limit.
My Merc BH is a DPS spec so all the healing 'adjustments' are completely worthless to me.
If I have to channel a heal the fight is already over and I've lost, because I couldn't heal a paper cut.

I'll get a new interrupt ability to replace the interrupt ability you're nerfing to ten meters.
Really though, where do you expect me to put it? I already have more abilities then ability slots.

My real question though, are these changes coming with all new animations and descriptions?
A full body, rocket assisted, uppercut punch that roots the target?
Are you people on something?

Not only is this PvP changes having a negative effect on PvE gameplay, but gameplay in general.
Instead of enjoying playing the game, I'm going to be shaking my head and cursing you fools every time my rocket-punch violates basic laws of physics in a manner that is to much of a stretch for even the Star Wars universe.
One man's fate decided by another man's wait.
Voranis Cometchaser-Master Bounty Hunter/Creature Handler-Bloodfin

cycao's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 11:56 AM | #194
Quote: Originally Posted by H-aTreD View Post

It's just sad to see people crying about such small things that aren't that big of a deal, yet they completely ignore the stuff that is going to mess things up a great bit. For example, what they're doing to resolve is the opposite of what the entire community is asking for. And more stuns? NO! No one wants more stuns in this game. How about the fact where assassins/shadows can possibly reduce their force speed to a 5-10 second cooldown (depending on how they spec)? Haven't seen much on that and that is also something that is a huge issue. But no, we get people crying about a slight nerf to the range of a stun and a buff to a knockback or crying about legacy names no longer being unique.
Well there is a decently large post on the possibility of a assassin/shadow being able to obtain a 5 sec force speed but yes I agree they pick a pretty small change to complain about...and they say PvPers are the biggest cry babies but just wait until its patch time when they try and balance PvP just a little bit.

Khevar's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 12:11 PM | #195
Quote: Originally Posted by Voranis View Post

I'll get a new interrupt ability to replace the interrupt ability you're nerfing to ten meters.

Just had to comment on this one.

The 10 meter nerfed stun doesn't work on bosses. The new 30 meter interrupt does.

Have you ever wiped in False Emperor because the other party members missed an interrupt on Ultimate Power? Have you ever had to pull out yet another a repair droid on LR-5 because the tank missed an incinerate? Or how about that one time your group downed Toth and Zorn just to wipe on the handler because nobody remembered to interrupt his channeled attacks?

Granted, most group compositions include others who can interrupt. But I have 8 toons and the only one that can't interrupt is my Commando dps. I'm willing to trade some range on my 4-second stun for a 30m interrupt.

H-aTreD's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 12:55 PM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Well there is a decently large post on the possibility of a assassin/shadow being able to obtain a 5 sec force speed but yes I agree they pick a pretty small change to complain about...and they say PvPers are the biggest cry babies but just wait until its patch time when they try and balance PvP just a little bit.
Hense why I said "haven't seen much". I've read through that thread but you'd think there would be more than 1 thread in the PvP section talking about this lol. But you're right, wait till patch time (or if we're lucky enough to test on PTS) and watch it explode

cycao's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 01:07 PM | #197
Quote: Originally Posted by H-aTreD View Post
Hense why I said "haven't seen much". I've read through that thread but you'd think there would be more than 1 thread in the PvP section talking about this lol. But you're right, wait till patch time (or if we're lucky enough to test on PTS) and watch it explode
Agreed, I will be sure to go to Costco and get my month supply of popcorn.

OrionSol's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 02:42 PM | #198
20 pages deep, the patch hasnt even hit the PTS, and... what? Do we think people will come to like it once they try it?

Being that MOST PEOPLE never go to the PTS, they will find out when this hits live, and... Im willing to be, are NOT going to be happy about it.
Or-ion Sol
Founder of THE JEDl ORDER (Guild Website)
"As I was, I am, I will..."

dscount's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 02:44 PM | #199
For the record - I love playing this game too, but it just seems that nobody at BW is taking feedback. Sure we get some reponses, but never seeing any real action on that feedback. (If so, please be more >>> SEE We fixed this... based on feedback - Like you did with Vendor on last World Event)
Sorry to burst your bubble but if your soloing as say a sorc or sage if you take like 2 steps backwards they will pool infront of you and bam!
I kinda agree with that, but what if you are grouped while healing with others? This 360 helps them too. (Lets face it, we don't get 100% geared people in GF most the time)
I hate to say it, but this is only a nerf if you are a bad player.
I would normally agree with that statement, but more times than I can count this has bailed out the group I'm running with. Does that mean I'm a bad player because the Tank is taking a dirt nap and the healer can't keep him alive or keep us alive? Keep in mind the social factor of this change will make it harder to compensate for lack of skills/gear of others as well.

When I solo it's fine and I use this less, it's when I'm with a group I've had to use more (w/o hosing AOE). I'm doing DPS thing and a mob is all over the healer next to me.. BOOM.. quick 360, shield him and I continue with an AOE in the same spot. (Yes - Adds are usually on the DPS, but sometimes you have to shift priorities)

My overall issues with this change:
  1. Adding new functions to compensate - Need LESS not more
  2. Change doesn't seem based on feedback or complaining, but out of the blue.
  3. The "Take it or leave it" approach I feel will also disregard our input when on PTS.
Reference Link: Why not?
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LordArtemis's Avatar

09.06.2012 , 03:31 PM | #200
They can simply disable the abilities in PVP and add new ones that work only in PVP. Or have the abilities change when you enter into PVP.

It's difficult for me to understand why Bioware hasn't grasped this simple concept yet in the MMO market.