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The state of Solo Ranked and Season 11

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
The state of Solo Ranked and Season 11

LinkinPein's Avatar


LinkinPein
02.07.2019 , 02:52 AM | #1
Dear BioWare,

TL;DR:

Spoiler


Season 10 rating manipulation:

Spoiler


My final thoughts, summarised:

Spoiler


I'm going to be quite straightforward: Season 10 is about to end and you have yet to even mention the current state of the matchmaking system in Solo Ranked. In case you need a reminder:

*Matchmaking tends to stack classes, often ending in an unfair composition. Examples:

Team 1 (DPS only):
Marauder
Marauder
Juggernaut
Assassin

Team 2 (DPS only):
Mercenary
Mercenary
Operative
Sorcerer


Team 2 clearly has the advantage; considering they all have the same skill level, the latter team has unmatched survivability. There are many other examples, such as cleave compositions versus meele, etc. Or perhaps my personal favorite:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer):
Marauder (carnage)
Marauder (carnage)
Marauder (fury)
Sorcerer (healer)

Team 2 (3 DPS + healer):
Sorcerer
Mercenary
Operative
Sorcerer (healer)


No need to comment on this, it happens often and it is pretty hilarious. But in case you don't play the game BioWare, someone in Team 2 is going to die in 2 seconds. And even if that isn't the case, it is pretty much impossible to win unless the Marauders aren't good.

*Matchmaking always hinders the highest rated player.

Everyone knows this by now, and it is perhaps the single most important point here; it takes all the fun out of Solo Ranked. Restore matchmaking to how it was before, because having 1500+ rating does not mean that you can carry 3 bad players againts 3 to, sometimes 4 good players. I cannot say for sure what you've changed, but certainly it was more fun to queue in Season 9 than it is now.

*Make Solo Ranked pops impossible to miss.

Just, why did you even change this? Was it on purpose?

*Return 30% damage reduction when stunned to Juggernauts, Assassins and Powertechs.

With the increase in damage output, these classes simply get close to dying in a single 4 second stun, if not plain globalled. This was perhaps the most reckless, stupid change ever made in terms of class balance.

*Remove guard from DPS classes/specs.

This, in conjunction with class stacking, often leads to unfair compositions, such as:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer):
Assassin
Assassin
Marauder
Sorcerer (healer)

Team 2 (3 DPS + healer):
Mercenary
Sorcerer
Marauder
Sorcerer (healer)


Team 1 clearly wins in terms of composition, DPS have simply to rotate guard when needed to win.

I could add more examples, but I believe these are enough to point out the flaws...

bladech's Avatar


bladech
02.07.2019 , 09:13 AM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein View Post
Dear BioWare,

TL;DR:

Restore Juggernaut, Assassin and Powertech survivability (DPS specs). Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. Restore matchmaking to how it was back in Season 9. Make pops impossible to miss. These, I strongly believe, will fix the fundamental problems with Solo Ranked. I speak from personal experience, after over thousands of games played throughout Season 10, on all 8 Advanced Classes.


I'm going to be quite straightforward: Season 10 is about to end and you have yet to even mention the current state of the matchmaking system in Solo Ranked. In case you need a reminder:

*Matchmaking tends to stack classes, often ending in an unfair composition. Examples:

Team 1 (DPS only): Marauder, Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin
Team 2 (DPS only): Mercenary, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer

Team 2 clearly has the advantage; considering they all have the same skill level, the latter team has unmatched survivability. There are many other examples, such as cleave compositions versus meele, etc. Or perhaps my personal favorite:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Marauder (carnage), Marauder (carnage), Marauder (fury), Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Sorcerer, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer (healer)


No need to comment on this, it happens often and it is pretty hilarious. But in case you don't play the game BioWare, someone in Team 2 is going to die in 2 seconds. And even if that isn't the case, it is pretty much impossible to win unless the Marauders aren't good.

*Matchmaking always hinders the highest rated player. Everyone knows this by now, and it is perhaps the single most important point here; it takes all the fun out of Solo Ranked. Restore matchmaking to how it was before, because having 1500+ rating does not mean that you can carry 3 bad players againts 3 to, sometimes 4 good players. I cannot say for sure what you've changed, but certainly it was more fun to queue in Season 9 than it is now.

*Make Solo Ranked pops impossible to miss. Just, why did you even change this? Was it on purpose?

*Return 30% damage reduction when stunned to Juggernauts, Assassins and Powertechs. With the increase in damage output, these classes simply get close to dying in a single 4 second stun, if not plain globalled. This was perhaps the most reckless, stupid change ever made in terms of class balance.

*Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. This, in conjunction with class stacking, often leads to unfair compositions, such as:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Assassin, Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Mercenary, Sorcerer, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)

Team 1 clearly wins in terms of composition, DPS have simply to rotate guard when needed to win.


I could add more examples, but I believe these are enough to point out the flaws.
As a guy who also played many fights during the season i can fully support all mentioned. Class stacking is terrible: 2 mercs against 2 marauders, 2 dot juggs against 3 melee classes etc. Win is always predictable in such fights. Of course 3 mercs will win against 3 maras in fights without healers. Of course 3 dot juggs will win against 3 carnage marauders since melee classes have to stack and will all die from aoe pressure. The class stacking is insane.

However, OP should write this thread in general discussion since devs never read pvp forum. Season 9 was much better than season 10 in terms of matchmaking.

WayOfTheWarriorx's Avatar


WayOfTheWarriorx
02.07.2019 , 09:43 AM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein View Post
Dear BioWare,

TL;DR:

Restore Juggernaut, Assassin and Powertech survivability (DPS specs). Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. Restore matchmaking to how it was back in Season 9. Make pops impossible to miss. These, I strongly believe, will fix the fundamental problems with Solo Ranked. I speak from personal experience, after over thousands of games played throughout Season 10, on all 8 Advanced Classes.


I'm going to be quite straightforward: Season 10 is about to end and you have yet to even mention the current state of the matchmaking system in Solo Ranked. In case you need a reminder:

*Matchmaking tends to stack classes, often ending in an unfair composition. Examples:

Team 1 (DPS only): Marauder, Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin
Team 2 (DPS only): Mercenary, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer

Team 2 clearly has the advantage; considering they all have the same skill level, the latter team has unmatched survivability. There are many other examples, such as cleave compositions versus meele, etc. Or perhaps my personal favorite:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Marauder (carnage), Marauder (carnage), Marauder (fury), Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Sorcerer, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer (healer)


No need to comment on this, it happens often and it is pretty hilarious. But in case you don't play the game BioWare, someone in Team 2 is going to die in 2 seconds. And even if that isn't the case, it is pretty much impossible to win unless the Marauders aren't good.

*Matchmaking always hinders the highest rated player. Everyone knows this by now, and it is perhaps the single most important point here; it takes all the fun out of Solo Ranked. Restore matchmaking to how it was before, because having 1500+ rating does not mean that you can carry 3 bad players againts 3 to, sometimes 4 good players. I cannot say for sure what you've changed, but certainly it was more fun to queue in Season 9 than it is now.

*Make Solo Ranked pops impossible to miss. Just, why did you even change this? Was it on purpose?

*Return 30% damage reduction when stunned to Juggernauts, Assassins and Powertechs. With the increase in damage output, these classes simply get close to dying in a single 4 second stun, if not plain globalled. This was perhaps the most reckless, stupid change ever made in terms of class balance.

*Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. This, in conjunction with class stacking, often leads to unfair compositions, such as:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Assassin, Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Mercenary, Sorcerer, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)

Team 1 clearly wins in terms of composition, DPS have simply to rotate guard when needed to win.


I could add more examples, but I believe these are enough to point out the flaws.
Yeah cuz like Snipers are fine.

I do agree with some of the points to be fair. But, while I agree about the guarding, you can't just do that and leave all the other off-role abilties that hybrid classes retain as DPS specs,especially considering there are two classes that don't even have any 'off-role- abilties to begin with.

If you take DPS gaurding away, there will than be a case to be made with the rediculous amounts of heals some DPS specs have, and off-healing to boot.

Taunting in DPS specs that have it is a fairly brainless and immensily effecting of damage ratios without any real need to monitor it. There is no reason not to use taunts on DPS specs on CD.

Guards
Taunts
self heals
off-heals
cleansing
Rez
perma stealth.

There are classes that don't even get one of those let alone 3 or 4 of them all in DPS spec.

I agree about the guarding 100 %. Thing is, if you do that, you open pandora's box. That is not the only one of the off-role abilities some DPS specs that are unbalancing and have too strong of an influence on outcomes.

Truth is, not one DPS spec needs even one of those things to perform his role as a DPS. Essentially you address one, you open the whole can of worms. Those classes that have guards will than take offense that only they are being 'trimmed' of off-role ability and than they will start point fingers at classes/specs that don't have guard as one of their off-role abilities.

Again, I totally agree with you in spirit about guarding in DPS spec.

SlimeyDoom's Avatar


SlimeyDoom
02.07.2019 , 10:17 AM | #4
Giving stun dr to classes based on solo ranked is a terrible idea. The game should NEVER be balanced around the matchmaking lottery of solo ranked, it should be balanced around trinity comps and group ranked like it always has. Some classes benefit more from being in a group, like powertech, whilst others are stronger on their own, like merc, but weaker in groups. It’s perfectly ok for classes to play differently and have different strengths.

Powertech in particular should not recieve any survivability buff without eating a nerf in damage potential. Why’s that? Because that cancerous class has dominated the group ranked meta since like.... 2.0? Even earlier? The only reason they’re not dominating the meta right now for the first time in ages was because of the removal of stun dr and the nerfing of Pt tanks ridiculous cleave output. Despite that nerf, they’re still very strong in group ranked. I don’t agree with any “balance” ideas that screw over the rest of the game.

Zurules's Avatar


Zurules
02.07.2019 , 10:26 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein View Post
Dear BioWare,

TL;DR:

Restore Juggernaut, Assassin and Powertech survivability (DPS specs). Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. Restore matchmaking to how it was back in Season 9. Make pops impossible to miss. These, I strongly believe, will fix the fundamental problems with Solo Ranked. I speak from personal experience, after over thousands of games played throughout Season 10, on all 8 Advanced Classes.


I'm going to be quite straightforward: Season 10 is about to end and you have yet to even mention the current state of the matchmaking system in Solo Ranked. In case you need a reminder:

*Matchmaking tends to stack classes, often ending in an unfair composition. Examples:

Team 1 (DPS only): Marauder, Marauder, Juggernaut, Assassin
Team 2 (DPS only): Mercenary, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer

Team 2 clearly has the advantage; considering they all have the same skill level, the latter team has unmatched survivability. There are many other examples, such as cleave compositions versus meele, etc. Or perhaps my personal favorite:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Marauder (carnage), Marauder (carnage), Marauder (fury), Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Sorcerer, Mercenary, Operative, Sorcerer (healer)


No need to comment on this, it happens often and it is pretty hilarious. But in case you don't play the game BioWare, someone in Team 2 is going to die in 2 seconds. And even if that isn't the case, it is pretty much impossible to win unless the Marauders aren't good.

*Matchmaking always hinders the highest rated player. Everyone knows this by now, and it is perhaps the single most important point here; it takes all the fun out of Solo Ranked. Restore matchmaking to how it was before, because having 1500+ rating does not mean that you can carry 3 bad players againts 3 to, sometimes 4 good players. I cannot say for sure what you've changed, but certainly it was more fun to queue in Season 9 than it is now.

*Make Solo Ranked pops impossible to miss. Just, why did you even change this? Was it on purpose?

*Return 30% damage reduction when stunned to Juggernauts, Assassins and Powertechs. With the increase in damage output, these classes simply get close to dying in a single 4 second stun, if not plain globalled. This was perhaps the most reckless, stupid change ever made in terms of class balance.

*Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. This, in conjunction with class stacking, often leads to unfair compositions, such as:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Assassin, Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Mercenary, Sorcerer, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)

Team 1 clearly wins in terms of composition, DPS have simply to rotate guard when needed to win.


I could add more examples, but I believe these are enough to point out the flaws.
Thank you for sharing your opinion, but there is some information that is not precise enough. Jugg/guardians, sin/shadows and powertech/vanguards DO still have the 30% DR when stunned. it was just moved to the tank specs away from the dps specs. I am fairly certain that is what u meant to say but I want to clarify that for others.


For the rest, I just simply can't agree with most of it. As you would like to see dps specs lose the ability to guard, I can't seem to find a good reason to do that without changing a whole lot of other things with it. It feels somewhat similar to doing like all dps specs who have healing options to not be able to heal (mers/commandos, scoundrel/op and sorc sage). Both guard and healing are secondary advantages that all the dps specs have as an option to do which MOST players do not take advantage of. Honestly, if there were to take those options away, it would make the game head even more towards every class being the same, which to me was the wrong move on their part.


In regards to the whole matchmaking system, we dont know enough to truly know all the elements that it takes into account into making teams. I've pvped for a long time and everytime there has been any kinda of balance changes, I've always took the time to think and see how it affects my main (shadow, infiltration) and adjust my strategies on how to beat other classes based on my strengths and their weaknesses. I seriously believe that like 99% of the player based have NOT taken more than 20 TOTAL minutes to think about this kind of stuff ( I somewhat base this on the amount of players who have taunts, who dont, those who have the ability to guard but never guards, those who can heal to offheal especially when they have the numbers advantage, but mostly by the amount of complaining I see on the forums about certain stuff being OP when they really aren't, best example of this are mercs. when they first got buffed, they were overtuned, they then got nerfed to just remain strong, but far from what I would consider op. what truly makes them op, is the player base who seem clueless and continue to use single target attacks for example during a mercs reflect the problem is NOT the actual balance of classes.


I was not aware that you could avoid solo ranked games without any punishment in terms of loss of rating. if this is actually possible , then it is a bug. If this is the case, I dont know how you can blame the match making system to correct someone not taking a pop ( lets say the best player does this, and there is literally no one anywhere near as good left in the potential pool of players in q to replace him, I dont see how the system can then balance it fairly in this case). So. again this is a player base behavior that is the issue, and not necessarily the matchmaking system. I also don't know how they actually take into account players true skill, as it feels like 99% of the players do not seem to play there classes to their potential/properly. I do agree that it seems like the higher rating you have, then the worse your team seems to get. I had the same feeling as you in regards to that most of the time. I have not played that many games this season because on top of this, I also deal with a lot of players who simply throw games on me specificly, or throw games for there friends who is on the other team, its sometimes hard to figure out which it is based on the constant name changes. But there are some who I know personally throw on me due to some grudge they have for my pvp guild basicly making 90% of the imp pvpers leave POT5 back in season 2-3. Solo ranked has only gotten worse and less appealing because when you have people who troll mixed with people who care, overtime the trolls ruin the experience for those who care and then they lose interest because of the people trolling the ranked games. Season 10 is the first season in which pubs and imps are on the same teams. This at first glance seemed like a great idea, even to me, but I saw one MAJOR problem that I think most people overlooked, and that is the fact that you could no long swap sides if one side had too many throwers/trolls in queue. Because of this, and the fact that the same trolls are still playing after all this time, aswell as some new ones probably (again hard to truly tell based on name changes) the remaining honest players can no longer avoid them no matter what we do (other than to simply not queue up), so most of the honest players stopped queuing. This is why this season it has had the least amount of participation in solo ranked. Until bioware does something involving ingame reporting with fast review and take actions on those troll players, ranked will continue to die, and at this point I dont know how much more dead it can get.


I also want to take a second to shout out to the players (Snave and co.) taking the time to create content to teach players about pvp and all its fun elements which I have come to really enjoy.


So that's my opinion on the matter. I'm sure many more will have their own opinions aswell and i'm curious to see everyone else take on this.
All Galaxy Hybrid-Clicker Shadow

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
02.07.2019 , 10:44 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein View Post
*Make Solo Ranked pops impossible to miss. Just, why did you even change this? Was it on purpose?
I believe the reason was the amount of botting that was done in solo ranked. Some guy on EU would just queue an afk tank against himself to get elo for his tank.

Quote:
*Remove guard from DPS classes/specs. This, in conjunction with class stacking, often leads to unfair compositions, such as:

Team 1 (3 DPS + healer): Assassin, Assassin, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)
Team 2 (3 DPS + healer): Mercenary, Sorcerer, Marauder, Sorcerer (healer)

Team 1 clearly wins in terms of composition, DPS have simply to rotate guard when needed to win.
A timely net and swap can really demolish the assassin guarding there. The mercenary can also knock guarding assassin and then burst, etc. - this is not the clear cut win you've described.

That being said, I think you are right on this. A similar issue which is not felt in solo ranked but is felt in team ranked, is access of DPS classes to cleanses, which I believe should also be removed. How the "off-roles" should be is a longer discussion though.

Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Yeah cuz like Snipers are fine.
Us snipers are really fine in the current meta of solo ranked. Lightning sorcerer, fury marauder and arsenal mercenary are all better damage dealing specs to have in the ubiquitous 4dps games. Arguably operatives are better suited for 4dps games too.

Of course, unless you think that a sniper running all game is overpowered, in which case you can really hurt sniper survivability by reducing the speed boost on countermeasures granted by re-establish range. You'd be better off teaching people when to hardstun though.

Snipers ARE strong with tank/heals, but I have seen literally EVERY dps class played in teams this season to good effect. Krellton pulls 5.5k+ dps on his Vengeance Jugg in teams. Balance in that regard is a bit more subtle.

Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post
Guards
Taunts
self heals
off-heals
cleansing
Rez
perma stealth
You cannot rez in arenas, and DPS offheals and taunts are not as big a problem as guarding. Stealth-out has its counterplays in arenas for quick enough players. Cleansing arguably creates some cancerous comps in group ranked (I'm biased as a swaps player), but not as big a problem in solo ranked, which is the topic of the thread.
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
02.07.2019 , 11:04 AM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by LinkinPein

*Matchmaking always hinders the highest rated player. Everyone knows this by now, and it is perhaps the single most important point here; it takes all the fun out of Solo Ranked. Restore matchmaking to how it was before, because having 1500+ rating does not mean that you can carry 3 bad players againts 3 to, sometimes 4 good players. I cannot say for sure what you've changed, but certainly it was more fun to queue in Season 9 than it is now..
I agree with your whole post except this part. I say this as someone who has also reached 1500+ and felt what you are saying, but it's clearly working as intended. Let's say there are 8 people queueing, ratings 1500, 1100, 1100, 1100, 1200, 1200, 1200, 1200. To make the most even teams, the matchmaker has to put the 3 1100s with the 1500. That is the fairest match. Are you suggesting the matchmaker should stack one team just so the 1500 can keep winning? The only real issue with the system is that there are not enough people queueing to consistently make fair teams, but that's a much harder issue to solve.

LinkinPein's Avatar


LinkinPein
02.07.2019 , 12:47 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
I agree with your whole post except this part. I say this as someone who has also reached 1500+ and felt what you are saying, but it's clearly working as intended. Let's say there are 8 people queueing, ratings 1500, 1100, 1100, 1100, 1200, 1200, 1200, 1200. To make the most even teams, the matchmaker has to put the 3 1100s with the 1500. That is the fairest match. Are you suggesting the matchmaker should stack one team just so the 1500 can keep winning? The only real issue with the system is that there are not enough people queueing to consistently make fair teams, but that's a much harder issue to solve.
This matchmaking can make really even teams, but that is the exception; it happens rarely due to low population, as you've said. That's why I believe the old matchmaking system was better. And 1600 range is even more punishing. The leaderboards are the very reflection of the issue that needs to be fixed, if anything because it defeats the purpose of the whole season. With such low rating people can secure top spots in less than 20, even 10 wins. Atleast when we had 2k+ ratings it was more rewarding. Out of s10 and s9 matchmaking, I think the latter is the lesser evil here.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.07.2019 , 12:49 PM | #9
an imporant note, much of the "2k" rating in solos was over inflated cheating. if you want validation for that, look no further than season 10s elo rating, where much if not all elo manipulation has been blocked.

LinkinPein's Avatar


LinkinPein
02.07.2019 , 12:59 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
an imporant note, much of the "2k" rating in solos was over inflated cheating. if you want validation for that, look no further than season 10s elo rating, where much if not all elo manipulation has been blocked.
I think we are missing the point here. Cheating should be a different topic. This is about the inherent flaws of the new matchmaking system and other issues. The truth, however, is that s10 encourages rating manipulation. Why work the whole season just to see how someone pops out of nowhere with 1800 rating and 10 wins. And this **** will be happening in the comming days.