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Exfiltrate Should be Removed [version 2]

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Exfiltrate Should be Removed [version 2]

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
02.11.2019 , 04:46 PM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by SlimPikinz View Post
Hasn't that always been the case though? Rather than listening to the people that play PvP 24/7 and do nothing else in the game, they make changes based off of a few developers that casually do PvP here and there.
Yeah pretty much.


Quote: Originally Posted by Rion_Starkiller View Post
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Trauglodyte's Avatar


Trauglodyte
02.12.2019 , 04:34 PM | #42
So, to get things back on topic, is it the desync issue that bothers you? Ergo, if you fix the problem, you fix the problem? Holo Traverse, as I understand it, is buggy but it does require a target.
To die is simply to end the cycle of pain!

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.14.2019 , 02:07 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Trauglodyte View Post
So, to get things back on topic, is it the desync issue that bothers you? Ergo, if you fix the problem, you fix the problem? Holo Traverse, as I understand it, is buggy but it does require a target.
Yes. BioWare has been adding abilities that their game can't handle and it has had an averse effect on the gaming experience. If they could fix the desync issue I'd probably be okay with these new abilities, even if I do prefer the slower pace of the original game. But it seems to me that they're incapable of fixing this issue, so what's the right thing to do? If they were to remove these abilities for pvp then pve-players would be upset. But sometimes I think you have to do what's right and not what's popular. World of Warcraft did as much with their ability pruning, and with their highly controversial change to the global cooldown in their latest expansion (https://www.wowhead.com/news=283908/...le-for-azeroth). I had a lot of friends who were pretty livid about the GCD-change but once the game launched it seemed to blow over real fast. The point was to slow down the pace, and in my opinion, it did.

snave's Avatar


snave
02.14.2019 , 11:58 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Yes. BioWare has been adding abilities that their game can't handle and it has had an averse effect on the gaming experience. If they could fix the desync issue I'd probably be okay with these new abilities, even if I do prefer the slower pace of the original game. But it seems to me that they're incapable of fixing this issue, so what's the right thing to do? If they were to remove these abilities for pvp then pve-players would be upset. But sometimes I think you have to do what's right and not what's popular. World of Warcraft did as much with their ability pruning, and with their highly controversial change to the global cooldown in their latest expansion (https://www.wowhead.com/news=283908/...le-for-azeroth). I had a lot of friends who were pretty livid about the GCD-change but once the game launched it seemed to blow over real fast. The point was to slow down the pace, and in my opinion, it did.
It blew over because everyone unsubbed from wow as a result of their changes

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.14.2019 , 12:50 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
It blew over because everyone unsubbed from wow as a result of their changes
The ability pruning started in Warlords of Draenor (2014) and while the expansion wasn't very popular, the main reason was the Garrisons. Legion was considered to be a good expansion. Battle for Azeroth has not been as hot though, but that's mainly because their Azerite gear was largely a failure (admitted even by themselves). I don't know what the population is like these days but I wouldn't be surprised if they've been in a steady decline since Cataclysm. The game is over 10 years old now, after all. Do you think the game would have been more popular if they had kept adding abilities over the years?

It's obvious that you don't much like the idea of losing Exfiltrate. I'd love to hear your honest perspective rather than this hot air that doesn't contribute anything. Did you play Operative back in the original version of the game and, if so, what did you think about it? In which expansion was the Operative at its prime, in your opinion?

Trauglodyte's Avatar


Trauglodyte
02.15.2019 , 12:08 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
It blew over because everyone unsubbed from wow as a result of their changes
I think that Exfiltrate, in the current suite of skills for the Operative, is a necessity. I'm all for fixing the problem, so as to eliminate the desyncing that exists. I remember back in 2012 and 2013 that Sith "speed" would cause problems and it really pissed me off, then. The issue, though, is that, if Exfiltrate cannot be fixed and is removed, what do you do to pump up the survival skills of the Operative? As it stands, Concealment Ops have NO tree specific perks to pump up self healing - Healers get their skills, obviously, and Lethality Ops get that "free zero GCD, zero energy, zero TA use super heal" if you Exfiltrate twice. Yet, the one Op that is 100% melee gets nothing. So, you're idea of removing it would have to be balanced by either several cool down additions OR risking breaking Healer Ops entirely by pumping up current cool downs. I'm not sure that people would be ok with turning Ops into a stealth melee version of a Vangard Trooper.
To die is simply to end the cycle of pain!

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
02.15.2019 , 12:20 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Trauglodyte View Post
Lethality Ops get that "free zero GCD, zero energy, zero TA use super heal"
its a 7k hl non crit and 13k crit. its also only available every 8-10 seconds. and requires you to be able to roll to do it.

its not "broken" lol

Majspuffen's Avatar


Majspuffen
02.16.2019 , 05:01 AM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by Trauglodyte View Post
I think that Exfiltrate, in the current suite of skills for the Operative, is a necessity. I'm all for fixing the problem, so as to eliminate the desyncing that exists. I remember back in 2012 and 2013 that Sith "speed" would cause problems and it really pissed me off, then. The issue, though, is that, if Exfiltrate cannot be fixed and is removed, what do you do to pump up the survival skills of the Operative? As it stands, Concealment Ops have NO tree specific perks to pump up self healing - Healers get their skills, obviously, and Lethality Ops get that "free zero GCD, zero energy, zero TA use super heal" if you Exfiltrate twice. Yet, the one Op that is 100% melee gets nothing. So, you're idea of removing it would have to be balanced by either several cool down additions OR risking breaking Healer Ops entirely by pumping up current cool downs. I'm not sure that people would be ok with turning Ops into a stealth melee version of a Vangard Trooper.
Yes, removing exfiltrate would only work in the larger picture of an ability pruning across the board. In my opinion, BIoWare needs to revisit the classes and distribute various CCs, mobility abilities and immunities to the right classes. As it stands right now, it feels like everyone has access to roots and root breaks, everyone has access to a gap closer/escape tool, everyone has access to CC-immunity and everyone has access to reflect. This may not be true, but it's not far from it.

It's gotten to the point where Exfiltrate is the best defensive tool for Operatives, and similarly, Force Speed is the best defensive tool for Shadows/Assassins if you spend your utility points buffing the ability (sure, force shroud is extremely strong but force speed has a shorter CD; I often use it to cushion big hits). Should a mobility cooldown really provide that much survivability? Distancing yourself from your opponent should be survivability enough, but Concealment Operatives and Snipers are encouraged to use their rolls, not for the distancing, but in order to avoid damage completely. I'll admit there is some skill involved in pulling this off, but why put so much of their survivability into one ability? I personally don't want to use Force Speed as a defensive cooldown, but that's where we are at.

Trauglodyte's Avatar


Trauglodyte
02.19.2019 , 01:33 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
its a 7k hl non crit and 13k crit. its also only available every 8-10 seconds. and requires you to be able to roll to do it.

its not "broken" lol
At not point did I ever say that it was broken. Did you read Lethality Op as "Lethality is OP"? Op = Operative. And, I'm well aware that you have to roll to do it which is why I wrote that it procs off of Exfiltrate (ie. the roll). Did you even read what I wrote? Seriously!

Quote: Originally Posted by Majspuffen View Post
Yes, removing exfiltrate would only work in the larger picture of an ability pruning across the board. In my opinion, BIoWare needs to revisit the classes and distribute various CCs, mobility abilities and immunities to the right classes. As it stands right now, it feels like everyone has access to roots and root breaks, everyone has access to a gap closer/escape tool, everyone has access to CC-immunity and everyone has access to reflect. This may not be true, but it's not far from it.

It's gotten to the point where Exfiltrate is the best defensive tool for Operatives, and similarly, Force Speed is the best defensive tool for Shadows/Assassins if you spend your utility points buffing the ability (sure, force shroud is extremely strong but force speed has a shorter CD; I often use it to cushion big hits). Should a mobility cooldown really provide that much survivability? Distancing yourself from your opponent should be survivability enough, but Concealment Operatives and Snipers are encouraged to use their rolls, not for the distancing, but in order to avoid damage completely. I'll admit there is some skill involved in pulling this off, but why put so much of their survivability into one ability? I personally don't want to use Force Speed as a defensive cooldown, but that's where we are at.
Exfiltrate is a weird gap closer / defensive "get out of there" combo tool. Ops got it for the same reason that Assassins got Force Speed. The lack of armor and health predicated the need for an ability to get the player out of a mess that a Light/Medium armored character isn't supposed to be in. At release, Ops didn't need it because the burst was such that the engagement window was short enough to not need it. Assassins needed it because, and I'm reaching back to 2012, their initial pre-buff burst was really low. Then they got buffed in early '13 and everything went sideways for a while. Another reason that Ops didn't need it, at release, was the combination of their wide tool set, the fact that they could kneel to avoid jumps/pulls, and they still had "roll to cover" to allow them the engagement area movement.

In reality, Exfiltrate only exists because the skill package got pruned. Once classes were determined at level 1 and abilities were consolidated to their appropriate classes - I really miss having Explosive Probe, Kneel, Roll to Cover, and Snipe on my Op, it was quickly found that Ops needed something to elongate the engagement range and to allow them to gain ground, when in pursuit of a target. Let's be honest, Sever Tendon and the Curbing Strategies (Masterful skill - Overload Shot reduces target's speed by 40% for 6 seconds) are both lackluster, since their restricted to a 10 meter max range. So, if they didn't add Exfiltrate, what would the option have been?

While I agree that Exfiltrate is probably note great for the game, I'd say that it isn't game breaking. I'm all for fixing the desync issue. Since I've just come back to the game, since 2013, I'm still trying to catch up to the changes. But, I'll say this:
  • I don't like all of the CC in the game and it was as much of a problem 6 years ago as it seems now
  • It seems VERY strange that there are so many anti-CC tools, which is the natural arms build compensation to mass CC
  • All of the movement tools seem overblown and I don't understand the need for additional movement abilities at level 59
  • Also, what is up with everyone having reflection?

There are a lot of things that classes needed and added mobility, for a great many of them, wasn't it. I'm assuming that a lot of classes got tools, because of changes made to PvE. But, when you do that, you mess up PvP which is where all of the CC, burst, speed, etc. problems creep up.

I love the Operative class and I think that I'm on Op #7, with another two waiting. I think, at the core, what you're wanting is really a fix to bugs and a pull back on all of the abilities that have caused the surge in counter abilities. Truth be told, what is the point of having CC abilities if everyone has the ability to counter said abilities? Where is the unique nature of the classes when everyone is vanilla?

EDIT: As a side note, I find this rather strange:

- lots of CC exists in the game which is why everyone has an anti-CC cool down as a base ability
- additional anti-CC skills get added, which forces all PvP players to take those abilities
- this results in the watering down of the original CC abilities, along with the presence of Resolve

Because of this, the original CC abilities are less powerful but players have additionally neutered their class's power by focusing on anti-CC skills, versus taking something to pump your abilities up. Round and around we go!
To die is simply to end the cycle of pain!

Stncold's Avatar


Stncold
02.20.2019 , 02:34 PM | #50
Exfiltrate is fine. I'd rather low slash get removed if anything.
RIP The Fatman.

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships." -Lucas