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Please do not waste your time brining back expertise. It has nothing to do with pvp.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Please do not waste your time brining back expertise. It has nothing to do with pvp.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
02.14.2019 , 11:06 PM | #81
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss
If they’d just left it be, we wouldn’t have all these issues now and pvpers wouldn’t have started to abandoned the game as soon as they changed it below max gear lvl. (Pvpers didn’t have a problem with it being higher when 5.0 first released).
You might be right about what most pvpers want in terms of gear, bolster, expertise, but I'd like to add a dissenting voice. I'm primarily a pvper, and I've mostly been doing solo ranked for the past few months (successfully, as one of the few to get gold for my class on my server, with hundreds of games played).

I am totally in favor of having bolster set below max gear, and I am totally comfortable grinding for gear to pvp effectively with. In fact, I like being able to have the best gear for both pvp and pve, because I sometimes dabble in harder pve content.

To me, arguing for complete parity in stats among all players does not make sense in the context of mmo pvp. If you are interested in pure, totally fair competition, there are many games that fit that bill. To suggest that any sort of mmo pvp should not take gear into account and should only be "skill based" is a rather silly argument. MMO pvp takes significantly less skill to succeed in than almost any other genre of player vs player gaming. If you really want a test of skill, you should play a game such as CS:GO, Overwatch, PUBG, or even Fortnite, among many others. To pretend that people mashing buttons in an mmo is really a display of skill...well, I'd say there's a reason why no mmo pvp has become an esport.

So with all of that being said, mmos have always involved gearing. Customizing and improving your stats is part of the fun of playing mmos, as opposed to the games mentioned above where that's not possible. I also don't think getting 258 gear is very difficult; It's not as if the pve content required is at all hard, just a bit time consuming. Frankly, I think class balance issues are a much more pressing concern than any of the issues brought up in this thread.

TrixxieTriss's Avatar


TrixxieTriss
02.14.2019 , 11:30 PM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
You might be right about what most pvpers want in terms of gear, bolster, expertise, but I'd like to add a dissenting voice. I'm primarily a pvper, and I've mostly been doing solo ranked for the past few months (successfully, as one of the few to get gold for my class on my server, with hundreds of games played).

I am totally in favor of having bolster set below max gear, and I am totally comfortable grinding for gear to pvp effectively with. In fact, I like being able to have the best gear for both pvp and pve, because I sometimes dabble in harder pve content.

To me, arguing for complete parity in stats among all players does not make sense in the context of mmo pvp. If you are interested in pure, totally fair competition, there are many games that fit that bill. To suggest that any sort of mmo pvp should not take gear into account and should only be "skill based" is a rather silly argument. MMO pvp takes significantly less skill to succeed in than almost any other genre of player vs player gaming. If you really want a test of skill, you should play a game such as CS:GO, Overwatch, PUBG, or even Fortnite, among many others. To pretend that people mashing buttons in an mmo is really a display of skill...well, I'd say there's a reason why no mmo pvp has become an esport.

So with all of that being said, mmos have always involved gearing. Customizing and improving your stats is part of the fun of playing mmos, as opposed to the games mentioned above where that's not possible. I also don't think getting 258 gear is very difficult; It's not as if the pve content required is at all hard, just a bit time consuming. Frankly, I think class balance issues are a much more pressing concern than any of the issues brought up in this thread.
We have very different ideas of what MMO pvp should be about. Look at Gw2. It successfully gives everyone max lvl and it works reall well.
I like to play for fun and pit my skill against another player. Not kill them or be killed by them because of better gear.

And yes, I also play other esport type pvp games. It is a different type of pvp, but that’s because most are like FPS’s and not 3rd person. There are of course rpg passed pvp esports as well and I’ve played them too.

One thing all of those pvp games have in common is they aren’t gear based. They are skill based and I think you’ll find overwhelming support for skill based pvp in this game vs gear based.

If you need better gear to have an advantage, then you didn’t really earn that ranked status.

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
02.15.2019 , 08:37 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by TrixxieTriss
If you need better gear to have an advantage, then you didn’t really earn that ranked status.
This is one thing I didn't mention in my post. Having the best gear barely gives you an advantage in solo ranked. Many of the best players were still in 248 gear relying on bolster. I'm quite confident that my results would have been exactly the same had I stayed in 248 gear as well. Not one person ever remarked upon my higher gear level as a factor in my success. Also, plenty of players come into solos with 250+ gear and still get globaled repeatedly. Gear is definitely not the be all end all that you seem to think it is.

bUrself_'s Avatar


bUrself_
02.15.2019 , 09:32 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
To me, arguing for complete parity in stats among all players does not make sense in the context of mmo pvp. If you are interested in pure, totally fair competition, there are many games that fit that bill. To suggest that any sort of mmo pvp should not take gear into account and should only be "skill based" is a rather silly argument. MMO pvp takes significantly less skill to succeed in than almost any other genre of player vs player gaming. If you really want a test of skill, you should play a game such as CS:GO, Overwatch, PUBG, or even Fortnite, among many others. To pretend that people mashing buttons in an mmo is really a display of skill...well, I'd say there's a reason why no mmo pvp has become an esport.
the existence of games that are harder to be good at means gear parity in pvp is out? this is like the definition of not making sense

I could claim the exact opposite: that the existence of harder games means pvp in this one should be as independent from gear as possible to close the gap where it can and it would literally be equally valid to your claim. or in other words it would be equally beside the point

instead of puking up non sequiturs fans of long gear grinds ought to be able to articulate some legitimate benefits of them, benefits that are more valuable than increased equality or enabling people to gear alts quickly. What are those benefits, exactly? Artificially giving people stuff to do? Benefitting one tricks and people who play vast numbers of hours?

Lundorff's Avatar


Lundorff
02.15.2019 , 10:14 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
You might be right about what most pvpers want in terms of gear, bolster, expertise, but I'd like to add a dissenting voice. I'm primarily a pvper, and I've mostly been doing solo ranked for the past few months (successfully, as one of the few to get gold for my class on my server, with hundreds of games played).

I am totally in favor of having bolster set below max gear, and I am totally comfortable grinding for gear to pvp effectively with. In fact, I like being able to have the best gear for both pvp and pve, because I sometimes dabble in harder pve content.

To me, arguing for complete parity in stats among all players does not make sense in the context of mmo pvp. If you are interested in pure, totally fair competition, there are many games that fit that bill. To suggest that any sort of mmo pvp should not take gear into account and should only be "skill based" is a rather silly argument. MMO pvp takes significantly less skill to succeed in than almost any other genre of player vs player gaming. If you really want a test of skill, you should play a game such as CS:GO, Overwatch, PUBG, or even Fortnite, among many others. To pretend that people mashing buttons in an mmo is really a display of skill...well, I'd say there's a reason why no mmo pvp has become an esport.

So with all of that being said, mmos have always involved gearing. Customizing and improving your stats is part of the fun of playing mmos, as opposed to the games mentioned above where that's not possible. I also don't think getting 258 gear is very difficult; It's not as if the pve content required is at all hard, just a bit time consuming. Frankly, I think class balance issues are a much more pressing concern than any of the issues brought up in this thread.
If I had the choice between PvP gear and bolster at +258 I would chose PvP gear. You are right insofar that this is a MMO, and that gear and individuality is a huge part of the appeal. I enjoyed gathering warzone comms and tweaking my gear just to my liking, and it also gave people a bit more incentive to play low -/midbies. My sole concern regarding PvP gear would be the bugs that would inevitably follow, but I would still prefer it over max bolster.

But that is also as far as I would take it. You say 258 is not that hard, but that is probably because you dabble in harder PvE content and perhaps because you only play 1 character(?). The only way for me to get 258, would be to trade 1500 UC each week across several ALTs. It would still take months... And what if I get tired of that one spec? Meh. The benefits of changing this system just outweigh the drawbacks to a crazy degree IMO

And yes gear is far from the most important factor in ranked, but that kinda goes both ways doesn't? I mean if gear isn't overly important, then why even make it an issue to begin with

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
02.15.2019 , 11:20 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by bUrself_
the existence of games that are harder to be good at means gear parity in pvp is out? this is like the definition of not making sense

I could claim the exact opposite: that the existence of harder games means pvp in this one should be as independent from gear as possible to close the gap where it can and it would literally be equally valid to your claim. or in other words it would be equally beside the point

instead of puking up non sequiturs fans of long gear grinds ought to be able to articulate some legitimate benefits of them, benefits that are more valuable than increased equality or enabling people to gear alts quickly. What are those benefits, exactly? Artificially giving people stuff to do? Benefitting one tricks and people who play vast numbers of hours?
You appear to have missed my point entirely, which is that complaining about gearing unfairness in mmo combat is frivolous. It would be like complaining that some people wear black, while others are in bright colors during a game of laser tag. Should everyone be forced to wear the same color clothes for complete fairness? The answer is, who cares, it's just a casual game of laser tag.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lundorff
You say 258 is not that hard, but that is probably because you dabble in harder PvE content and perhaps because you only play 1 character(?). The only way for me to get 258, would be to trade 1500 UC each week across several ALTs. It would still take months... And what if I get tired of that one spec? Meh. The benefits of changing this system just outweigh the drawbacks to a crazy degree IMO

And yes gear is far from the most important factor in ranked, but that kinda goes both ways doesn't? I mean if gear isn't overly important, then why even make it an issue to begin with
These are some decent points. You're right that I funneled all of the gear from alts to one character, which is the only one I do ranked pvp on. The current system certainly does make it time consuming to fully gear a lot of alts. As for your second point, I don't disagree. My point is it doesn't really matter what they do with gearing. If they change it in 6.0, I'll adapt to whatever it is. It's not as if I'll quit if I lose my "advantage" from gearing. None of the gearing stuff that some are so dramatic about are very important.

Lundorff's Avatar


Lundorff
02.15.2019 , 11:42 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
These are some decent points. You're right that I funneled all of the gear from alts to one character, which is the only one I do ranked pvp on. The current system certainly does make it time consuming to fully gear a lot of alts. As for your second point, I don't disagree. My point is it doesn't really matter what they do with gearing. If they change it in 6.0, I'll adapt to whatever it is. It's not as if I'll quit if I lose my "advantage" from gearing. None of the gearing stuff that some are so dramatic about are very important.
I think we sorta, mostly agree on these issues

I have a question for you. Are the 252 / 258 mods all tradable through legacy gear like the 248 stuff? Or are some of it restricted to specific shells or something?

JediMasterAlex's Avatar


JediMasterAlex
02.15.2019 , 12:15 PM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Lundorff
I think we sorta, mostly agree on these issues

I have a question for you. Are the 252 / 258 mods all tradable through legacy gear like the 248 stuff? Or are some of it restricted to specific shells or something?
Everything is tradable through legacy gear as before, but now all the mods are slot bound, which means that a 258 boots enhancement can only go in another boots piece, etc. If you need to get rid of accuracy for pvp, you can get the healer gloves/boots and use the crit enhancements from those.

Lundorff's Avatar


Lundorff
02.15.2019 , 12:55 PM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Everything is tradable through legacy gear as before, but now all the mods are slot bound, which means that a 258 boots enhancement can only go in another boots piece, etc. If you need to get rid of accuracy for pvp, you can get the healer gloves/boots and use the crit enhancements from those.
Ah thank you, cheers!

DNGDangerous's Avatar


DNGDangerous
02.17.2019 , 10:55 PM | #90
Quote: Originally Posted by JediMasterAlex View Post
Everything is tradable through legacy gear as before, but now all the mods are slot bound, which means that a 258 boots enhancement can only go in another boots piece, etc. If you need to get rid of accuracy for pvp, you can get the healer gloves/boots and use the crit enhancements from those.
^This is my most frustrating change since my return to swtor. It aggravates me to no ends because the character I play should not have to level up a different toon, just to optimize.

I would not mind if there was a vendor that sold gear from all classes, but currently, on ossus... there is only one 252 vendor and only one 258 masterwork vendor. And they only sell gear for the class of the character currently perusing their wares.