Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Regarding 2.6 operative / scoundrel changes (dev's post)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Scoundrel / Operative
Regarding 2.6 operative / scoundrel changes (dev's post)
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
01.10.2014 , 08:41 AM | #131
Note that the crit buff on Rolling Punches isn't unalloyed bonus, we're losing 6% flat alacrity buff to get 6% flat crit chance.

This means (assuming 100% uptime on RP) you're no longer hitting 6% faster - or rather, no longer getting 6% redcution in the GCD between your attacks - which implies a 6% reduction in DPS. The 6% crit chance buff is only going to cover that if you're doing better than 100% bonus damage on crit - anyone got Surge up to that? No. Only on Shoot First, Back Blast and now Sucker Punch with talents, and the rest of our abilities sitting around 75%.

So the switch from alacrity buff to crit chance buff implies a *reduction* in DPS, where we see bigger hits but further apart. Chances are you won't be able to feel the slowdown in attack speed and will jus see Big Numbers flash more frequently.

Anyway, my point is: yes, I like the crit chance buff, but if we're getting any increase in overall damage it isn't from this,as the Rolling Punches change is probably an overall DPS nerf.
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

Cordorian's Avatar


Cordorian
01.10.2014 , 09:11 AM | #132
Quote: Originally Posted by Kaos_KidSWTOR View Post
Sweet, my operative will actually be wanted in raids now! Orbital Strike, well, none of my Sniper/GS classes were MM or Engi, so this nerf doesnt affect me! and thank christ skank tank will be gone, that was the bane of my existance...
Operatives since 2.0 had 2 totally raid viable specs in medicine and lethality. Well and there was Invinc who almost can convince you that concealment is viable :P

The bigger problem was always to convince people to not want you as healer only.

If there will be Orbital nerf, i will remain to be seen by how much the deeps of snipers will go down. Yet for PvE so far those operative that pull the really high numbers usually found ways to include Orbital into their rotation as well, so it probably will be dps loss for us as well.




Btw i want the combat sents zen for operatives... 30% alacrity increase, it already looks funny on sents on maras... just imagine those knives and punches on steroids :P

cs_zoltan's Avatar


cs_zoltan
01.10.2014 , 09:34 AM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Nortt View Post
and im sorry, but if a operative opens on you and you are a anything but a tank or wear heavy armor then you should die. that's how it is.
not sure if retarded or...no, actually i'm pretty sure you are retarded. What's next, TOR downgraded to pen and paper RPG?
Sorry but if I'm more skilled than an operative opening on me I shouldn't die just because I'm playing another class.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. Now get out of here.

The Red Eclipse <PC Gamer Mint Imperials>
KÚja, Kejann, Aemis, KyrÝ, Kyra'h, KÚssa, Frńngit, Lamţa, Kalk´Maelin, Morwy

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
01.10.2014 , 11:00 AM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by snave View Post
Someone do some napkin math and work out the numbers on these buffs?
All very rough estimates, with margin of error dependent on individual playstyle and gear.

datamined 2.5.2 changes:
1) 14% buff to Shoot First = +1.8% DPS
2) 62% reduction in Flyby coefficient and loss of fourth tick = -5% DPS

Depends how much you used Flyby (I was getting about 7% of PvP damage from it which might be high), but the combination of taking an axe to its damage PLUS switching the GS/Sniper set piece bonus so the extra FFB/OS tick is on the 4pc (i.e. Scrapper/Conc Ops will never take it, anotther 25% off) kills Flyby/Orbital damage, I reckon about 73% down in all. You will no longer use it as a damaging ability. This means you'll use something else instead, so actual DPS won't be 5% down because of this nerf, but it's a real kick - no flyby and then continue doing something else any more, and time to grind a new set piece.

2.6 changes
1) Scrappy boosts BW, QS and BB by 5% from 4% = +1.0% to each of these; +0.3% overall
2) Flying Fists to 100% proc chance on Sucker Punch = +6.1% to SP+FF; +1.0% overall
3) Turn the Tables from 2%/4% to 3%/6% boost to SP and FF = +2.0% to SP+FF; +0.3% overall
4) Sawed off boosts BB by 5% from 4% = +1% to BB; +0.14% overall
5) Underdog boosts SP crit damage by 30% instead of Tendon Blast's = 5.2% to SP; +0.8% overall
6a) Gaining 6% crit chance from Rolling Punches = +4.0% overall
6b) Losing 6% alacrity from Rolling Punches = -5.8% overall

2.6 total = +0.74 %

However, this underestimates the benefits. The calculation is based on the assumption that everything else, including playstyle, remains the same. This won't happen. Sucker Punch has had a series of buffs, such that it's much stronger (20% or so) and more efficient with the 100% Flying Fists proc. Similarly the fall in DPS from the FFB/OS nerf is overstated because you'll change your ability choices to mitigate.

Also, the loss in DPS from losing Rolling Punches' alacrity buff is a big hit, but I feel it might be exaggerated here (though most people fail to recognise the benefit they were getting from it). With the boost to crit rating we're going to see the horrible critless opening burst less frequently.

Bioware have made Flyby/Orbital really bad for DPS Scos and Ops, to the point of uselessness, while turboing Sucker Punch/Laceration and giving some nice all round buffs to other abilites we use as a melee. None of them seem ridiculously OP, I'm sad to say. The crit buff is the best, but to get it we lose the alacrity we never noticed we had.

Anyway, hope that helps give people some perspective on the changes, even if the numbers themselves are pretty rough.
There will be blood, it might be yours;
So go kill someone - signed, Bad Horse

Ilmarinen 65 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

NogueiraA's Avatar


NogueiraA
01.10.2014 , 02:22 PM | #135
6% alacrity means NOTHING... To reduce 0.1sec on the GCD you need AT LEAST 8% alacrity.
A marauder playing Carnage has 30% alacrity while using Berserker, they can reduce the Ravage cast from 3.0sec to 2.3sec. 30% alacrity = 0.7secs. So for an Operative, 6% alacrity really means NOTHING, 6%crit is way, way better.
La'izen | Sentinel
Jedi Laizen | Guardian
Satele Shan
BETA tester

idnewton's Avatar


idnewton
01.10.2014 , 02:42 PM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by NogueiraA View Post
6% alacrity means NOTHING... To reduce 0.1sec on the GCD you need AT LEAST 8% alacrity.
A marauder playing Carnage has 30% alacrity while using Berserker, they can reduce the Ravage cast from 3.0sec to 2.3sec. 30% alacrity = 0.7secs. So for an Operative, 6% alacrity really means NOTHING, 6%crit is way, way better.
Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.
PRE-ORDER ACCOUNT LEGACY LEVEL 50 LEVEL +55s: 24
ETERNAL WARRIOR CHEEVO POINTS: +31,000
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Negative language gets you disqualified? Oh I'm sorry, please wait while I contact your local 'safe space'

Arcadius-Fett's Avatar


Arcadius-Fett
01.10.2014 , 02:54 PM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.
When did he state it did compete? Calculated Frenzy gives us 6% alacrity for 15 seconds and he just explained how useless that is and how much better it will be with 6% critical chance instead.
Ziara - Vanaden
The Shadowlands

Uber_the_Goober's Avatar


Uber_the_Goober
01.10.2014 , 02:58 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by idnewton View Post
Crit doesn't compete with alacrity. The fact that you didn't know that kinda destroys the credibility of everything else you said.
Yeah cuz, something tells me YOU don't know how to compare two different stats. I'll take 6% crit chance over 6% alacrity ANY DAY. I'd take it over 20% alacrity...alacrity sucks plain and simple. Unless we're talking 30% - 40% reduction in cast times and GCD, it's just not worth it in PvP. Maybe to the pve crowd...where boss battles go on and on and on and a few % improvement spread out matters. In pvp as a concealment if you're not done and over with the fight in about 10 to 15 GCD's, you're not going to win anyway. In fact, you're probably dead or re-stealthed.
POT5 COMMANDO - CAPTAIN OBV'IOUS
SENTINEL - PICKLE'JAR

AMONG OTHERS...
See you in the warzones, muppets.

Carlenux's Avatar


Carlenux
01.10.2014 , 04:39 PM | #139
overall the idea is true about Crit > alacrity, however we are talking concealment operative here, you guys are far overestimating an useless 6% crit buff and underestimating a great nerf from alacrity, that alacrity was the small regen / GCD buff that made the difference, now regardless of 100% CS, the energy is just as bad to control, it just force you to do endless spam of CS as long as CD is up, eventually making you starve at some point at CS + AB/CD for 2 rifle shots that totally destroy the CS regen making it just the same as it was before.
the nerf on orbital strike is a huge dps lost on both specs, for a rookie concealment op might be an increase because most people cant control its energy, but in reality is just dps lost and burst lost.
the +3 seconds on CD totally destroy lethality rotation, i dont know why they have to touch that, however is a change that "doesnt" affect what we had, i am still parsing higher with 3 sec than 6, just by the fact that 90% of the time i have to clip that last 3 sec for your WB + cull set up.

now the problem with these changes is, concealment has too many filler options without OS and with CS procs, and you have nothing to fill, basically forcing you to rifle shot on an awkward situation that u often used orbital or pretty much was required, the difference is before ih ad 65 energy < 2 sec GCD on shiv, i had to rifle shot, eventually that plus alacrity helped pushing my rotation to being stable for what comes next.
now half the time i am stuck with 65-75 energy < 2-3 sec GCD on shiv, 1 TA (without proc available) and nothing to use, this doesnt force me to rifle shot because shiv is not 1 GCD away, it is 2, so it forces me to overload shot, which then forces me to 2x rifle shot and delay shiv, so my best option is to Rifle shot 2x and waste energy otherwise ill delay ability use, bottom line, being more stable on RNG is good however the orbital strike nerf destroyed the rotation, and the filler spots for abilities thanks to the Energy regen on CS are often rifle shots, because the energy calc. with the 105 new energy is akward and either wil starve you or waste useful energy, no much room for something good to use.

as far as lethality the same, no orbital is a huge lost, also now with 5 more energy, believe it or not, is a complete new game, energy is all messed up as you have more room for fillers like overload shots, however using an overload shot where u had to use rifle shot before is risky if you dont prox fatality after. also using the 6 second dart buff, you have two option, either waste WB debuff from cull to dots which is a dps lost, or delay WB 2 GCD for redot which is a dps lost too, because CGrenade ticks on use, so its not a dps lost, but Dart doesnt, so the super easy steady rotation we had with those 3 second become a complete mess .

bottom line, this is a nerf hidden with a buff, conceal ill do higher dmg and no rng, but still "average" i mean 3750-3800, not 4k or 4.1k like pyro merc as we were expecting bioware when they buff something usually Become FoTM, and lethality itself will parse maybe a bit lower than that, but being way easier to use, having more randged abilities, still managing energy much more better and C.grenade AoE dot, will probably still be ahead of concealment as far as utility in the raid. anyways i just did like 10-15 parses, maybe i just was in a bad run, maybe when i test it more or in live ill come up with a 4100 parse, but i doubt it.
Hmaull // Carlenx // Carlenix // Pyrotec // Invinc // Hwynn

jack__'s Avatar


jack__
01.10.2014 , 05:04 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Wainamoinen View Post
Note that the crit buff on Rolling Punches isn't unalloyed bonus, we're losing 6% flat alacrity buff to get 6% flat crit chance.

This means (assuming 100% uptime on RP) you're no longer hitting 6% faster - or rather, no longer getting 6% redcution in the GCD between your attacks - which implies a 6% reduction in DPS. The 6% crit chance buff is only going to cover that if you're doing better than 100% bonus damage on crit - anyone got Surge up to that? No. Only on Shoot First, Back Blast and now Sucker Punch with talents, and the rest of our abilities sitting around 75%.

So the switch from alacrity buff to crit chance buff implies a *reduction* in DPS, where we see bigger hits but further apart. Chances are you won't be able to feel the slowdown in attack speed and will jus see Big Numbers flash more frequently.

Anyway, my point is: yes, I like the crit chance buff, but if we're getting any increase in overall damage it isn't from this,as the Rolling Punches change is probably an overall DPS nerf.
For a properly played Operative dps rotation, the only thing alacrity is good for is the increased energy regen. The rotation is played using shiv -> GCD -> GCD -> GCD -> shiv so even if there is some alacrity there is no room to fit in another move without delaying shiv which is a massive dps loss.
"Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." -Abraham Lincoln