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Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Why is there a copy protection system in the graphics, and is it crippling the game?

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 08:49 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Frooby View Post
Ok, I did as you asked and read through the paper. I understood what it was saying quite well, as I work with 3D models for my living.

I couldn't find any mention of merging 2d streamed data and 3d client data together. If you could point out the relevent passages I will read them.

The system described in the paper is totally different to running one set of images from your computer and mixing in other images from the server. It is a proprietary system made to view models held remotely.

Unless you're suggesting all models and textures are bring rendered remotely and the whole thing is being streamed ala "Onlive" (which is isn't, obvioulsy).

I still maintain the the difficulty and effort to bring these images together would negate their usefullness as copy protection. Think of the programming man hours it would have taken them. There are much cheaper and easier ways to copy protect stuff.
Bottom of the second page:

Quote: Originally Posted by Remote Rendering Paper-thing
Hybrid hardware/software rendering. Hybrid hardware and software
rendering schemes can be used to take at least some advantage
of hardware accelerated rendering, while benefiting from software
rendering’s protections as described above. In one such scheme, a
small but critically important portion of a protected model’s geometry
(such as the nose of a face) is rendered in software, while the
rest of the model is rendered normally with the accelerated GPU
hardware. This technique serves as a deterrent to attackers tampering
with the graphics drivers or hardware path, but the two-phase
drawing with readback of the color and depth buffers can incur a
performance hit, and may require special treatment to avoid artifacts
on the border of the composition of the two images.
In another hybrid rendering scheme, the 3D geometry is transformed
and per-vertex lighting computations are performed in software.
The depth values computed for each vertex are distorted in
a manner that still preserves the correct relative depth ordering,
while concealing the actual model geometry as much as possible.
The GPU is then used to complete rendering, performing rasterization,
texturing, etc. Such a technique potentially keeps the 3D
vertex stream hidden from attackers, but the distortions of the depth
buffer values may impair certain graphics operations (fog computation,
some shadow techniques), and the geometry may need to be
coarsely depth sorted so that Z-interpolation can still be performed
in a linear space.
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

danieljcf's Avatar


danieljcf
01.11.2012 , 08:49 AM | #122
Nice post OP .

I'm looking forward for an answer from BioWare, and if it turns out to be true, bye SWTOR.

Nilenya's Avatar


Nilenya
01.11.2012 , 08:49 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
So in short, everyone is using Bioware's servers as a remote video card? That information/rendering is then fed back to our respective computers?

Thus the hard bottleneck when people are PvPing (tons of movement/animation/combat data).

If this is true then this game is dead. It's a $200 Million dollar game that committed suicide the momment it was released.

WOW!! If SWTOR fails because of this it will be the 2nd Starwars MMO to commit suicide.

AMAZING!
Yes it is - Its not quite as bad as an NGE the day after you go purchase an expansion, but its kinda up there - it deserves one of those big facepalm pictures at the very least.

Tahana's Avatar


Tahana
01.11.2012 , 08:50 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Sookie View Post
This sounds like a complete joke to me. The only reason i can see for doing it like this is because Lucas Arts demanded that all assets are copy protected and EA/Bioware was forced to comply.

Or this is some kind of weird research project they are toying around with.
Pretty much this is the only thing that I could think of why they would need to implement such a feature.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to
what lies within us. - Ralph Waldo Emerson -

Granrick's Avatar


Granrick
01.11.2012 , 08:50 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by aimbotcfg View Post
If this is true, it would explain why my i7 extreme, with its 8 logical cores which, up until now, has not struggled with anything, including rendering high def video whilst playing a game on one monitor and watching a movie on my second, has the temperature shoot up to 80 degrees as soon as SWTOR is launched.
This is interesting, because I recently replaced my mobo and processor with an i7 2600k, and my mobo came with heat monitoring software. I've been monitoring it just to make sure I had my cooling set up properly, and I've seen no difference in heat levels between SWTOR and other games I play.

I consistently have around 52 C temps when running SWTOR, or any other game, and I idle in the high 30s to low 40s

archifikoss's Avatar


archifikoss
01.11.2012 , 08:51 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Androvis View Post
Greetings-

I'm a bit of a hardware monkey as well (at work, and at home), and this game runs my system much hotter than games that tax it much harder. I seriously hope that this is all a tin foil hat conspiracy, because if not - this game is dead in the water. They will have lost customer trust.

Regards
Androvis
It would probably be publicly stated as "an optimization issue" or something, I doubt they would admit to it if it were true and they considered its disclosure a liability.

Lol, now I'm feeling like some Agent talking like this, where are your government secrets now Bioware?

Stindlas's Avatar


Stindlas
01.11.2012 , 08:51 AM | #127
I think what your going to find out is is that the cutscenes are on your harddrive therefore making responses to the quest givers will be what is happening with sending information back and forth. What I'm saying is would you really want all the information from someone elses quest lagging down the server your currently trying to fight on?
Iron Circle

Tiron_Raptor's Avatar


Tiron_Raptor
01.11.2012 , 08:53 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Ossos View Post
So in short, everyone is using Bioware's servers as a remote video card? That information/rendering is then fed back to our respective computers?

Thus the hard bottleneck when people are PvPing (tons of movement/animation/combat data).

If this is true then this game is dead. It's a $200 Million dollar game that committed suicide the momment it was released.

WOW!! If SWTOR fails because of this it will be the 2nd Starwars MMO to commit suicide.

AMAZING!
it could just be the second swtor.exe process using software rendering too, which'd explain a lot also.

Quote: Originally Posted by Afflictionz View Post
Good find man, keep this page Alive. I'd love go see an answer about this from the devs, but you know they will just deny and ignore it lol
Not if someone with some mad skillz (TM) does an in-depth analysis on it and finds out that it's doing it... or not, as the case may be.

I lack mad skills (tm) myself to do it with.

Quote: Originally Posted by Granrick View Post
This is interesting, because I recently replaced my mobo and processor with an i7 2600k, and my mobo came with heat monitoring software. I've been monitoring it just to make sure I had my cooling set up properly, and I've seen no difference in heat levels between SWTOR and other games I play.

I consistently have around 52 C temps when running SWTOR, or any other game, and I idle in the high 30s to low 40s
Like I said a few up, there've been some reports that forcing the AA on might be what causes some people to have temp problems. Not sure why that does the PROCESSOR though...
One day my body will be able to take my brain out in public without it embarrassing us.

Minack's Avatar


Minack
01.11.2012 , 08:53 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Tiron_Raptor View Post
I've heard some reports that high temps may be linked to forcing AA on: that because it's not properly implemented in-game, it isn't optimized correctly or something and pushes things way too hard.



This appears to be a deliberate design decision: reports from Public Test indicate that the current 'high' texture option has been removed, and the current 'medium' texture option renamed to 'high'.

I'm wondering, based on what I've heard about the timing, if the high res textures weren't disabled to aid the remote renderer, but that's speculation of the highest order.
If that's true then....LOL!

mrache's Avatar


mrache
01.11.2012 , 08:53 AM | #130
The turd factor for this game jumped ten fold.